 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-11-25 04:15
This etude seems disjoint to me.
I have the Carl Fischer editioin
There are many, many repeated 1/16th notes, and the phrases are broken with slurred arpeggios -using a really odd chord progression.
How do you make those repeated 1/16's sound as though you're not just waiting around, getting set to run another arpeggio?
In measure 13 should the first and third beats be played slur-3/tongue 1 as are most of the articulations leading up to it, or slur 4?
I think that phrases break at
the end of measures 4,
after the 3nd beat of measure8,
after the first note in measure 14
at the end of measure 18,
after the first note of measure 22
after the first note of measure 24
at the end of measure 28
Do you see it differently?
Or, maybe this ain't actually music, but just a drill.
SIGH
Bob Phillips
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-11-25 18:35
Bob Phillips wrote:
>> This etude seems disjoint to me.>>
I really think it isn't. I'd like to suggest that you play a simplified version to begin with. Your phrase analysis isn't wrong; but there's more to say.
First of all, you're right that many of the repeated notes aren't really a part of the music -- so let's leave some of them out, following these three rules:
(1) Play only the slurred notes.
(2) If the slur is over four notes, play the next note as well, then stop.
(3) If the slur is over three notes, stop after those three, without playing the next note.
(So rules (2) and (3) mean that, for example, bar 2 goes, 'diddle-up, rest; diddle-iddle-up'; and bar 3, 'diddle-up, rest; diddle-up, diddle-up'.)
In my edition (Drucker), bar 8 doesn't have a slur over the first two semiquavers -- but I think it should, for a reason I'll explain later. So in that bar, I suggest you play just those two notes.
(In bars 22/24 there are no slurs -- so we could just play the first note of each bar, so as not to seem too ungenerous:-)
Now, if you play through the piece like this, you can notice that up to bar 9, the first notes of the 'fours' are parts of the harmony; whereas the first notes of the 'threes' are appoggiaturas (outside the harmony). The first note of bar 8 is also an appoggiatura, which is why I said it should be the first note of a slur.
And appoggiaturas are bearers of emotion: they speak of the polarity:
(not belonging)/(belonging)
...which is at the heart of human experience -- and which is why this piece is anything but a drill. In fact, it comes from Schubert, doesn't it? which is some indication of why it is so powerfully sad.
So, we have something like a system, with 'fours' as harmony structures, and 'threes' as appoggiatura structures.
But in bar 9 this system changes. We have from bars 9 through 12 a sort of 'celebratory' bounciness, as each '3' forms a clear common chord -- no appoggiaturas there! These threes occur, first, every half bar, and then, excitingly, EVERY BEAT (bar 12).
And then the sadness of the appoggiatura starts to come back in bar 13; but this is trumped by the switch in tonality to C major in bar 15, which starts a new pattern that our rules make clear, if you follow them.
It doesn't last, though: bar 25 recapitulates what happens in the opening, and the piece ends sadly.
Now, finally, what do we do about the repeated notes? Well, I suggest that if you play through the piece as I suggest, you'll find that they 'play themselves'. They're a sort of 'tail', or 'acoustic' to the structure I've described.
Playing music effectively is quite often a matter of deciding which notes are important and which notes are subsidiary; so I think you've raised an important issue here.
Tony
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-11-25 19:04
I would quite like to get these Rose studies but i'm unsure as to which ones I should get. It sems that there are several versions available.
What would you recomend or what do I need to get in order to have the complete set (as it were).
Thanks
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-11-25 19:57
Thank you, Tony; I'm taking your analysis to my music stand. I really appreciate your help here.
And, I'd like to know much, much more about how to recognize the "not important" (and the "important") notes without having to have them pointed out to me. Frankly, I have no methodology to accomplish this on my own.
Peter.
The Rose 40 published by Carl Fisher comes in two volumes, with 20 each.
It is one of several in print, and (I think not the most desirable edition). Others provide the genesis of the pieces (who wrote the original study, and for what instrument). I'd like to know that, so someday I'll go in search of a more authoritative edition.
I think that the Rose 32 are also available in several editions.
Bob Phillips
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-11-25 21:12
Thanks Bob,
So there are two books, Rose 40 and Rose 32. Ok i'll be on the lookout for those.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2008-11-25 21:23
"Artistic Studies from the French School", edited by David Hite, published by Southern, has all of the Rose 40, 32, and 6 of the 20 studies. Perhaps a bit over-edited, but worthwhile for correction of the myrad mistakes in the 1913 Carl Fisher edition. The 32 Etudes are available in a newer Carl Fisher edition, nicely edited by Mel Warner, but I think the Hite publication is a better buy for most students.
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Author: Deanna
Date: 2008-11-25 21:26
Peter,
I agree that the Hite is a good choice. Either way, I would start with the Rose 32. Those are slightly more standard than the Rose 40, at least in terms of what universities and conservatories require of incoming undergrads. But knowing both is even better.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-11-25 21:54
Deanna wrote:
> I would
> start with the Rose 32. Those are slightly more standard than
> the Rose 40, at least in terms of what universities and
> conservatories require of incoming undergrads.
Most teachers, myself included, take students completely through the Rose 40, before beginning the Rose 32.
The Rose 32 are timeless, quality etudes which both incorporate and reinforce many of the skills needed to perform at an advanced level.
The Rose 32, like Baermann III are books which (IMO) should always be on your music stand. Play out of them every day.
Pable Casals once said that much of his understanding of music flowed through the works of Bach.
I similarly feel, that for clarinetists, much of the basis of performing the classic repertoire for clarinet has its foundation in the Rose 32.
...GBK
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-11-25 22:06
GBK wrote:
>> The Rose 32, like Baermann III are books which (IMO) should always be on your music stand. Play out of them every day.
Pable Casals once said that much of his understanding of music flowed through the works of Bach.
I similarly feel, that for clarinetists, much of the basis of performing the classic repertoire for clarinet has its foundation in the Rose 32.>>
I never ever looked at any one of them before today. (I bought them a couple of months ago because people on this BBoard go on about them so much.)
Tony
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-11-25 23:03
Tony wrote:
"I never ever looked at any one of them before today. (I bought them a couple of months ago because people on this BBoard go on about them so much.)"
Tony, that is also why I'm interested in them, I want to see what all the fuss is about.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2008-11-25 23:34
If anyone wants a good edition of the 40, latest C. Fisher edited and corrected; I'd recommend the edition done by Donald E. McCathren.
He has a page of comments on every one, kind of a little master lesson.
His ideas make good sense and they've been quite useful to me. It comes in two books, 20 etudes each. They're not very expensive, Gary Van Cott can get them to you in a flash.
I'm astounded Tony has never worked with them until now. His lesson on 22 meets my approval...he should analize all 40 and publish. Henry Larson did publish a good study of the 32...it's avaliable from Van Cott too.
I wish someone would do a CD of the 40 like that guy from South Dakota did of the 32.
Clarinet Redux
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-11-26 02:27
I think one reason why the Rose studies/etudes are used so much in the U.S. is that Daniel Bonade used them extensively (and Bonade either studied with Rose or studied with one of Rose's students--something like that). David Hite, in his introductory comments to his edition of the Rose studies/etudes, wrote that Bonade "felt these studies contained nearly everything a student should know about clarinet performance."
Another reason these are so prevalent in the U.S. is that they are frequently used as all-state tryout music here. In Texas, they are (and have been since time immemorial) pretty much where all of the all-state music comes from. One year I remember they picked some fiendishly difficult Baermann etudes instead, and after everyone struggled with those, they went back to using Rose and as far as I know have been using Rose ever since.
What I'm curious to know, though, is what etude/exercise books are popular outside the U.S. Do you have some favorites that you use in the UK, for instance?
I'm asking in part because I've been sort of hunting around for something new for me to work on with a didactic purpose, and, to be honest, I've grown a little tired of the Rose books--too much of the same style. I'd like to know what other good stuff is out there I've been missing out on.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-11-26 07:12
mrn, whilst an undergrad the main study books I used the Uhl studies volumes 1&2, also the Jettel studies. The Jettel are particularly tricky, there are designed to meet the challenges of the 20th C repertoire. We also could choose are own studies. I used Bach Partitias (Giampari), Cavalini Etudes, Vede Mecum and I forget the rest. I don't think it's universal here in the UK conservatoires about what studies to use.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-11-26 09:07
The Rose studies are certainly not unknown here, but they don't have the central place in the repertoire that they seem to have in the USA.
I enjoy trying to play Frederick Thurston's "Passage Studies". These are adapted from real pieces of music. There are three volumes. The first volume is "Easy", but don't be fooled; this means "Easy if you are a professional."
Thurston also wrote a clarinet method, which I find very dull in comparison.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-11-27 16:38
Bob Phillips wrote:
>> And, I'd like to know much, much more about how to recognize the "not important" (and the "important") notes without having to have them pointed out to me. Frankly, I have no methodology to accomplish this on my own.>>
Anyone else up for having a try at this?
Tony
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-11-28 16:12
Aw, Mr. Pay, am I not a sufficient reservoir of emptiness to prompt your sharing?
Seriously, the issue of important vs subsidiary comes up with my teacher quite often when he reviews my work. His insights are amazing --and greatly improve my presentation of the material. He transformed my playing of the Glinka Trio Pathetique!
In frustration, one day I asked if I needed to get off to a 5-year conservatory program. His reply? "It helps!"
Please, please point us/me along a productive path.
thank you
Bob Phillips
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-11-28 19:41
Phrasing.. determine your phrase length and destination. Often there is building to a point/note in the phrase and then a relaxing. Marcel Moyse had a number system for dynamics within the phrase. Of course people phrase differently so it isn't set in stone. Usually passing notes and turns that surround a given note are less significant than the main note. The first article I remember on phrasing was in the Collis method for clarinet. It was a start. Many times accents can be a destination point rather than a random note that is "stabbed at". I would suggest looking at where notes occur in the bar. Let's assume that the fourth sixteenth note in the second beat of every bar is probably not the most significant ....most of the time. Try reducing sixteenth notes to eighths or quarters. Check out beats one and three. These are likely candidates. Look also for arpeggios that are embellished. The embellishments are not the skeleton. Karg Elert has used some analysis of phrasing in his studies for flute. Shenker also deals with analysis. I'm not sure of it's relationship to phrasing. Overanalysis leads to paralysis and underanalysis leads to shallowness. I note that there is an International Society For Overanalysis....there probably isn't one for underanalysis.
Freelance woodwind performer
Post Edited (2008-11-28 19:45)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-11-28 20:09
Dyslexia is a wonderous thing:
underanalysis ==>uninalsis
Thanks, Arnoldstang. This provides additional focus.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-11-29 08:35
Hi Bob, How would you use these "important" notes within the phrase? In a jazz context the less important notes many times would be "ghosted". In a classical context it seems a much more subtle approach with some stretching of notes and gentle stresses going on. Long phrases are the order of the day. Introducing lots of minute inflection might cause a "bulgy" overnuanced approach. Thinking too much about a series of important notes within each phrase might in fact disrupt things. You may have different ideas regarding all this. What would you do with the important notes?
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2008-11-29 16:49
Bob:
Finding important notes from unimportant is a challenge for all players, and requires much more knowledge than simply knowing how to play the clarinet. My caveat here is that I only learned how to play the clarinet, but never took theory classes, so this is done with limited knowledge. I am posting because it may help you if you are like me, relying more on the knowledge of others rather than your own in order to phrase music.
Even though I don't think those are completely separate, I try to "analyze" pieces in terms of their rythmic and harmonic content.
An example of rythmic phrasing: if a section starts with duplets, then triplets, then 16th, it usually means a rythmic build up to somewhere exciting, to an important note...
In classical ear music, rhythmic form is somewhat easily recognized. In a menuet first beat is almost always strong, an important note. So if you see a tie or some notation from the composer that indicates that the first beat should not be strong, then this is likely an unusual/important place in the piece.
An example of harmonic content is a harmonic perfect cadence (chord V resolving to I), you may not know what they look like but you have heard them many times and they sound like the end of a piece. These are important places in a piece. Appogiaturas are usually not important notes.
Some composers help you through their phrasing and dynamics notations understand what they mean, by notating the music very clearly, Brahms was quite particular, so was Stravinsky. Unfortunately for you and me, classical composers such as Mozart assumed the performer would know how to do things in a certain manner because performance practice was very codified based on the harmonic and rhythmic writing.
As I do not have formal training in theory and analysis, I often rely on my ears to help me discriminate what it is that the composer wants me to do. Of course some composers make it very difficult by putting phrases within phrases, false cadences, and all sorts of complex construction of phrases.
But Bob, no matter what you think about your ability or inability to find the important notes in a piece, the mere fact that you are thinking about it makes you light years ahead of many players of today, even the ones with a 5 year conservatory education.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-11-29 17:16
My teacher has gotten across only a few concepts that are helpful to me in finding the "important" notes.
The not-so-important notes can be found in:
**Pickup notes,
**Passing tones (but not always),
notes that the teacher points out as being un-important (this advice often feels off the wall at first --where'd that come from?-- but ALWAYS makes sense immediately after re-playing the passage with the emphasis shifted away from the not-so-important notes.)
Obviously, I've got room to grow.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-11-29 19:32
I think it is about how you prepare important notes that is important. Just stressing them isn't sufficient. Leading into them dynamically and even delaying the important note or stretching it are techniques that are used. I would still suggest picking a destination in the phrase and working towards it.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-11-29 19:55
John Price wrote:
>> I think it is about how you prepare important notes that is important. Just stressing them isn't sufficient. Leading into them dynamically and even delaying the important note or stretching it are techniques that are used. I would still suggest picking a destination in the phrase and working towards it.>>
But I wouldn't:-)
Tony
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-11-29 22:45
I would suggest trying to create direction in one's playing. It should have a flow.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-11-29 22:48
in my case, the first challenge is in identifying the important note(s) to target!
Bob Phillips
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-11-29 23:52
Hmm...This is an interesting exercise for me, because although I think I usually have pretty good intuition about phrasing, codifying that intuition is not necessarily that obvious.
If we're talking about Rose Study #22, though, I'd have to say that it's actually the beginnings of the phrases that are more important. That is, the origins are more important than the destinations. That has to do with the metric nature of the music. Rose #22 needs a pulse to sound musical or else it's dead.
At the risk of sounding overly simplistic, I'm going to propose that the "important" notes are (or at least include) those that exist at metrically strong locations and "points of change" (an intentionally broad term).
"Points of change" might include a change in implied harmony (harmonic rhythm), change in melodic direction (middle of bar 16 in this study changes from ascending to descending, for example), change in rhythm (first notes of bars 22-24 are important because they are followed by a rest, which changes the rhythm by implying an 8th-16th-16th rhythm instead of straight 8ths). An appogiatura might also be considered a "point of change" because it "leans into" a real harmonic change (as opposed to some sort of mere momentary harmonic excursion). In fact, the term "points of change" can also include metrically strong notes in music with a strong metric feel, since the "change" is a change of bar or change of major subdivision of a bar.
If you'll forgive my habit of thinking in terms of musical analogies (which my somewhat intuitive approach to music makes me prone to do), this Study #22 reminds me a lot of the "Summer" concerto from Vivaldi's Four Seasons, especially the quicker parts of the first movement (which, like this study, was also written for a violin). I wouldn't play it exactly like Vivaldi (which is a lot more "agitato" than this study seems to be--the mood is somewhat different), but the basic construction of the Vivaldi concerto is similar to this study. You have a rhythmic pulse of repeated notes with an occasional little "jump" to suggest a chord change. It's the little "jumps" that give the piece musical meaning.
In fact, just like in Vivaldi, you have these little figures that appears over and over again but that are shifted up or down by step. Bar 10 is the same as bar 9, but moved up a scale degree. Bar 11 is up a scale degree from bar 10. Bar 12, descends by step on each beat. So that means that you have not only the 16th-note patterns going on, but also an underlying stepwise movement (sort of an imaginary basso continuo). So you have to respect this stepwise movement in your phrasing.
A similar kind of stepwise movement occurs in two-bar chunks starting at bar 15, except now each repeated figure has a substructure of a descending minor third. If you remove the arpeggiation, you have:
First chunk:
bar 15: C2 C4 C4 (the 2 means half-note, the 4 means quarter-notes)
bar 16: A1 (whole note, down a minor 3rd from bar 15's C)
Second chunk (up a major 2nd from first chunk):
bar 17: D2 D4 D4
bar 18: B1
Third chunk:
bar 19: E2 E4 E4
bar 20: C#1
So now you have two layers of abstraction underlying the single line. I think the phrasing needs to reflect this structure.
(BTW, thanks to Peter and Norbert for their etude suggestions.)
Post Edited (2008-11-30 03:45)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-11-30 19:17
Mike wrote:
>> ....although I think I usually have pretty good intuition about phrasing, codifying that intuition is not necessarily that obvious.>>
Yes, this is the nub of the issue. Our job as players is to respond flexibly to our intuitions, which have to have the quality of 'givens' in order to guarantee the naturalness of our response. When that's up and running, 'codification' is a redundant final step -- though it may be useful in teaching those intuitions to others.
You went on to say, though:
>> If we're talking about Rose Study #22, though, I'd have to say that it's actually the beginnings of the phrases that are more important. That is, the origins are more important than the destinations.>>
...and what that means is that YOUR intuitions include not only the romantic intuition suggested by John Price:
>> I would suggest trying to create direction in one's playing...determine your phrase length and destination.>>
...but ALSO the opposite, classical intuition of: "the origins [being] more important than the destinations."
Having that intuition -- and though it's quite natural, not everyone has it -- means that it's possible for you to conceive of music that is constituted of 'phrases that begin' rather than 'phrases that go towards an end'.
I cite my 'Phrasing in Contention' article here very often; but here it is again:
http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Study/Phrasing.html
It's about precisely this issue.
And here is a link that tells the story of how the ideas in that article once fared in the real world (turn on 'threaded view' to go directly to the story, though you may be interested in the rest of the thread):
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=242357&t=241290&v=t
The central realisation could be put in this way:
We have nothing but our intuitions to inform our musical performances. But those intuitions are derived from our experience; and if we limit ourselves to what we already find intuitive, we may not best realise all sorts of music.
The structure of classical music requires us to do something like, 'grow a NEW heart'; that is, if playing 'from the heart' has hitherto exclusively been, 'identify the most important note and go toward that note.' Then, with this newly-discovered heart, playing from the heart may also allow a more 'speaking' context, that can shade into 'singing' as and when required.
And, this 'new heart' is actually quite natural, even if at first it doesn't seem that way to formally trained musicians, and requires time for some of them to appreciate.
(Nat King Cole understood it:-)
Tony
Post Edited (2008-11-30 21:53)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-12-10 01:39
Sorry for the huge delay on this. I only recently got a copy of study number 22. I would approach this study in two ways. Number one as a study in controlled tonguing, endurance, breathing and technique. I would use the metronome and be as fussy as possible with time. Record yourself and check every note is in place.
If you want to approach this as a study in lyricism my personal approach would be as follows. Tempo could be reduced slightly if needed. It should be unlaboured and as flowing as possible. Bar 1. mp accents on beat 2 and 4 with cresc on beat 4/// Bar 2 mf accent on beat 1 and cresc beat 4// bar 3 accents on beats 1, 3,4 with decresc thru beats 3,4// bar 4 accent beat 1 molto rit beats 2,3,4 more decres ..breathe// Bar 5 a tempo..accents on beats 2,4 cresc in beat 4// Bar 6 accent beat 1 cresc thru bar to next bar// bar7 mf accents on beats 1,3.4 descres on beat 3,4// bar 8.. cresc beats 1,2 decresc beats 3,4(hairpin)// bar 9 accents beats 1,3 mp// bar 10 accents 1,3 mf// bar 11 accents 1,3 forte cresc thru beat 4 with Rit....(agogic accent) leading into next bar// bar 12 ff piu mosso, accents on beats 1,3// bar 13 accents beats 2,4 // bar 14 dim beats 2,3,4 with slight rall back to a tempo( bars 12,13, and part of bar 14 are all piu mosso// bar 15 p ... a tempo hairpin cresc..dim// bar 17 mp// bar 18 hairpin cresc..dim// bar 19 mf..//bar 20 cresc thru entire bar// bar 21 accents on beats 2,4 descresc beats 3,4// bar 22 as written cresc// bar 23 accent on beat 1 decresc// bar 24 p molto rit on beats 2,3,4// Bar 25 is recap. so accents on beats 2,4 cresc on beat 4// bar 26 accent beat 1 and cresc beat 4// bar 27 accents on beats 1,3,4 with decresc// bar 28 accent beat 1 with poco rit on beats 3,4// bar 29 mf.. accents beats 2,4 with cresc on beat 4// bar 30 accent beat 1..cresc thru bar// bar 31 accent beat 1 cresc//bar 32 f...beats 1,2 mf dim beats 3,4//bar 33 mp accents on beats 2, 4//bar 34 accent on 2 with dim thru beats 2,3,4//bar 35 mp that's it. All accents are not be overdone. This is just one way. All the best
Freelance woodwind performer
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