 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: noseed574
Date: 2008-11-24 00:51
Yesterday, I noticed my Buffet R13 had a thin, but long line extending through a tone hole on the upper joint. I didn't know what it was. But, when I practiced, I didn't hear anything wrong with my sound.
However, today, I went to a lesson (I am in high school) and I could barely play my clarinet. Notes would not come out and squeak. When I played low F, it kept coming out as high C. Usually, when I play in front of my teacher, I sound much worse than when I practice, but notes actually come out of the horn. Today, notes couldn't even come out. My teacher tried my clarinet and even though he sounded good with my clarinet, he noticed something was wrong. I showed him the line and he told me it was a crack and that was the cause of my problems.
When I came home, I tried my clarinet again and it sounded fine.
So, I have a few questions:
1. My teacher's house is moist and warm. In this type of environment, is the clarinet harder to play?
2. What happens if a crack goes through a tone hole? Why am I not hearing anything wrong when I practice, but can hardly play at my teacher's moist, warm house?
3. The crack is very long (around 2 inches) and goes through the hole covered by the 4th side key. Can it be fixed? What will happen if I do not fix it? How much will it cost? How long will it take?
Thanks!
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Author: pewd
Date: 2008-11-24 00:57
Cracks can open and close a bit due to changing humidity and temperature conditions, this is probably why you noticed differences between your home and your teachers'.
we can not answer most of your questions - take it to a good repair tech and have it fixed. most cracks can be fixed. cost/time - ask the shop for an estimate. if you don't have it fixed, it won't play properly - as evidenced by what you saw at your teacher's house, and it might get worse. i would take it in to the shop tomorrow morning if it was mine
have your teacher recommend a good local repair tech.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
Post Edited (2008-11-24 00:57)
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2008-11-24 21:46
<<1. My teacher's house is moist and warm. In this type of environment, is the clarinet harder to play?
2. What happens if a crack goes through a tone hole? Why am I not hearing anything wrong when I practice, but can hardly play at my teacher's moist, warm house?
3. The crack is very long (around 2 inches) and goes through the hole covered by the 4th side key. Can it be fixed? What will happen if I do not fix it? How much will it cost? How long will it take?<<<
Since the crack goes through a tonehole it must be done carefully and correctly, if you are not sure that your repair person can do this please ask your teacher for a recommendation and take your clarinet there for repair.
Your clarinet could have changed size and shape easily just going from your house to your teacher's office, I have had clarinet cracks disappear by the time someone brings me their clarinet because the humidity changed. As David Blumberg wrote "humidify your clarinet", please start that immediately because it could easily keep your clarinet from cracking in the future.
If the crack goes through the tonehole it’s not a disaster but it is more difficult to repair and the repair person needs the right tools to finish the job, that's why I mentioned a recommendation from your teacher.
Since it's 2 inches long it will probably be pinned and then dressed so that it will be much stronger and not so prone to cracking in the future. When it's done you will have a very hard time finding the crack, it will almost disappear!
It must be fixed and the time frame will depend on the place you go, if they are really busy it could take a month, hopefully a lot quicker than that.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-11-24 21:54
James, I am interested in knowing the age of your clarinet and if you are the original owner. It might not be a bad idea to see if you can leave your clarinet at your teacher's house until you can get it fixed. In the meantime perhaps he/she can loan you a plastic horn.
Bob Draznik
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Author: noseed574
Date: 2008-11-24 22:00
Thanks for all the advice.
I will take in the clarinet to a reputable repairman today to have it fixed. In the future, I will keep the clarinet in a humidified room.
BobD wrote:
> James, I am interested in knowing the age of your clarinet
> and if you are the original owner. It might not be a bad idea
> to see if you can leave your clarinet at your teacher's house
> until you can get it fixed. In the meantime perhaps he/she can
> loan you a plastic horn.
The clarinet is from 1992 and I am not the original owner. I purchased it two years ago from a local music store, and it was completely overhauled before I bought it.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-11-25 00:26
You live in Florida; do you really need to humidify your room? There are many reasons why a clarinet can crack including but not limited to just because it could. You could do everything right and a clarinet can still crack, you can do everything wrong and it won't crack. Unless you did something really stupid like keep it by a heater, expose it to a very cold room when it was all warmed up, or something equally dumb you probably couldn't do anything to prevent the clarinet from cracking. Some clarinets just have a weak spot and they will crack but it never hurts to take precautions. ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
Listen to a little Mozart, live performance
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-11-25 07:20
<<Since it's 2 inches long it will probably be pinned >>
A pin crosses a crack quite well down towards the bore, so for the bulk of splits, that are mostly in the outer 1/3 of the wall of the timber, pinning probably does rather less stabilising than we traditionally think it does.
Pinning was established as a technique a long tome ago, before superglue was available. I am thinking more and more, from reason, experience, and the anecdotes of others, that with the advent of low viscosity superglues, pinning may be totally unnecessary for most cracks.
This superglue 'wicks' down to the very bottom of a crack, penetrates the timber slightly, and holds timber very strongly. It can be used to fill and glue an entire crack. It is probably a lot stronger than the surrounding timber.
And I have just heard from a very experienced, very busy technician, that for a decade he has successfully used superglue without pinning, with no problems.
Food for thought... An enlightened technician just may prefer not to pin this split.
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2008-11-25 14:35
I would draw the line at less than one inch for thinking about not pinning a crack and then it would have to be at a fairly flat area of the clarinet (not near a tone hole).
The pins stabilize the area very well and over the years (about 40) the only cracks that reopened and I had to repair again were the ones that I used only cyanoacrylate adhesive and wood dust. I have not yet re-repaired a crack that I pinned.
At the next meeting when I get together with my group the U.R.T.A. (Unenlightened Repair Techs of America) we will discuss this topic further and in much detail since none of us are very busy.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-11-25 20:51
You may find that the tech I referred to is one of those in your group. :-)
I would like to make it clear that I was writing about filling the ENTIRE split with cyanoacrylate glue. When grenadilla dust is involved, many techs push that into the split, then apply the cyanoacrylate. It is unlikely that the glue penetrates far into the crack; it is more likely that it just binds the dust which is near the outside of the instrument, with minimal gluing of the timber.
"I have not yet re-repaired a crack that I pinned."
Nor me. But I have not yet re-repaired a crack where I used cyanoacrylate in the entire unpinned crack.
So was the pinning necessry?
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Author: Geirskogul
Date: 2008-11-26 03:12
Better be safe than sorry. Unless the crack is in an awkward position, and it's not too demanding to do so, I'd rather have the crack pinned.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-11-26 04:57
And you'd rather have pins in your broken leg if filling and glueing (done by the body in this case) was perfectly adequate? ... Better safe than sorry? :-)
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Author: Geirskogul
Date: 2008-11-26 07:05
If you want to get technical, then yes, because they would prevent my leg from being broken in the same place in the future (and to further your analogy, the body is, many times, NOT perfectly adequate, but that's another subject). The pins cause no extra harm, doesn't cost that much more, and gives a safety net because it's a well-known, tried-and-true fix. Glues are known to be brittle, especially in situations where flexing of any sort can occur. Pins prevent it from even happening in the first (second, I guess?) place.
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2008-11-26 23:27
Have played with a repaired (pinned) crack in my clarinet for almost three decades. My Bufffet plays beautifully...and I've lived in all kinds of climates over the years.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-11-27 06:00
>> If you want to get technical, then yes, because they would prevent my
>> leg from being broken in the same place in the future (and to further
>> your analogy, the body is, many times, NOT perfectly adequate, but
>> that's another subject). The pins cause no extra harm, doesn't cost that
>> much more, and gives a safety net because it's a well-known, tried-and-
>> true fix. Glues are known to be brittle, especially in situations where
>> flexing of any sort can occur. Pins prevent it from even happening in the
>> first (second, I guess?) place.
Whenever there are new ideas and technologies, it's at least worth it to question the old ones, because the new ones might be better. BTW, before anyone misinterprets my post I should be clear that I'm not saying whether pinning is good, bad, necessary, unnecessary, but just coming up with things that are worth considering.
What you call "safety net" is essentially a sense of security. This is for the player, not for the clarinet. Many times this can be from tradition, specific education (not always correct), culture, etc. Locally, people don't really have those beliefs about pinning, so generally it doesn't give them that sense of security. I think there is a weaker tradition for repair methods here than some other countries.
But looking at the technical reasons, I think it was Chris P who posted the info from the Yamaha repair manuals. It's at least interesting to see that Yamaha, one of the leaders in the mechanical side of instruments, used to recommend pinning in their old manual (I think it was from the 70s? Maybe 80s?). In their newer manual (90s? More recent? I can't remember exactly) they don't even mention pinning and recommend only gluing the crack! The fact that they changed it shows they were aware of what they were writing.
Cracks in wood clarinets remained the same ever since they existed, but repair techniques have changed and developed a lot. Pinning was probably the best method for a very long time. There simply weren't glues good enough to do this alone. But glues are so much better now. The fact that pinning is "a well-known, tried-and-true fix" doesn't mean there is nothing better today (again coming back to tradition).
As far as "the pins cause no extra harm" that could be true. But pins about half way into the body might be too low to really help much with most cracks, which usually don't go very deep close to the bore. OTOH with pins that are higher, it could get risky and break the wood above them. One excellent repairer (oboe specialist from USA) says he puts the pins about 1/3 way into the wall. With an excellent repairer the risk is obviously much smaller but it is never 100% risk free. With glue there is no risk of breaking anything. It's also not always true that pinning "doesn't cost that much more". In some cases, especially for several pins, it could cost significantly more. This depends on what you consider "significantly more". In some cases the extra cost of pinning is definitely a consideration.
It's possible that a good glue can hold the crack without any problems, and without a need for anything extra. This is possible to find out from experience. As you said pinning is "a well-known, tried-and-true fix" but I guess gluing alone, being a little too new, is not that yet. So people need to try it. It seems that one repairer (who Gordon mentioned) have been doing that for a decade without any problems. I don't have a decade of experience of gluing cracks but ones I've seen that were properly glued (or have done myself) also never re-opened.
For pinned cracks, I'm wondering if the crack was also glued. I've seen a few cracks with pins only, no glue, and they did re-open, for example after playing the instrument for a while. Many years ago I had one of those on my own clarinet, done by an excellet repairer who did the pinning very good, but without any glue in the crack. For those that were pinned and glued, I'm wondering if it was actually the glue that kept the cracks closed!
Again, I'm not saying pinning is good/bad or gluing is good/bad, and I might pin a crack in some cases, but these are all things that I think about when I'm going to repair a crack. I think it's worth doing the same for most other repair methods that are possibly outdated. It's a better approch than simply accepting something as best because it's old....
Post Edited (2008-11-27 10:05)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-11-27 10:55
"OTOH with pins that are higher, it could get risky and break the wood above them."
But the wood above is already broken in that location!
"Many years ago I had one of those on my own clarinet, done by an excellet repairer who did the pinning very good, but without any glue in the crack."
But isn't the standard practice for pinning to fill the crack after pinning?
I have never pinned a crack and the majority of my experience with cracks is with metals. Historically there is ample evidence that subsequent to pinning the wood sometimes cracks elsewhere. Cracks in wood clarinets occur due to residual stresses in the wood. Once the crack occurs at least some (all?) of the stress is relieved. Perhaps pinning is largely a placebo effect and the best remedy is simply to fill the existing crack with something that prevents entry of the environmental elements such as humidity. Perhaps this is what Yamaha concluded.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-11-27 11:36
"But the wood above is already broken in that location!"
When pins are are screwed into holes, they compress the timber immediately around the holes. So when the pins cross the crack closer to the outside of the clarinet body, there is a much higher chance of this compression forcing chunks of clarinet to split off the outside, especially if the pins are near to tone holes. Also, if the pins are closer to the surface, then the length of the hole they grip in is considerably shorter, providing less grip. Furthermore, the entry hole for the pin is a large oval instead of a small oval, hence more unsightly. IN practice, the risks are just too great to pin close to the surface, so pins typically cross the split roughly 1/3 of the way out through the wall from the bore. Splits seldom penetrate this deep.
the "But isn't the standard practice for pinning to fill the crack after pinning?"
Yes, but the emphasis is on the word "fill". Traditionally black shellac was used. It adhesive properties were close to zero, especially in the way the way it was applied. Its function was almost entirely cosmetic, and did not penetrate far into the crack.
By comparison, filling the entire crack with cyanoacrylate has quite powerful adhesive properties.
"Perhaps pinning is largely a placebo effect"
Perhaps indeed.
BTW, some technicians consider that pinning stabilises one region of the timber, but creates greater localised stresses elsewhere, because the stresses are no longer spread through such a large segment of the circumference. It is claimed that this increases the chance of splitting further around the body.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2008-11-27 18:33
Why not carbon band ?? in essence somewhat like the old Brand metal banding BUT without the pressure stresses that could induce.
The banding takes place virtually on the surface (starting about 2mm below typically) and provides an immensely strong restraint against further cracking 360 degrees around the body.
It can also be made cosmetically quite unabtrusive.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-11-27 21:27
It sure is good that carbon banding attempts to stabilise the surface of the clarinet, rather than deep down near the bore.
1. Carbon fibre presumably resists compression quite strongly. So what happens when the timber goes through a normal shrink cycle? For the vast majority of players who do not use humidifiers, do you apply the band while the timber is swollen or unswollen? (I don't know the answers, but the questions are one reason I am a little reluctant to band)
2. I think it is a lot easier to get a good cosmetic result where the damage is along the grain that against it.
"It can also be made cosmetically quite unobtrusive."
Personally, I think lines going around the clarinet, even if fairly inconspicuous, are fairly ugly.
But my issue is not banding versus pinning. It is whether these intrusive, cosmetically more conspicuous, slightly risky, and fairly time consuming operations are necessary at all, when a good job of gluing with cyanoacrylate is quite likely reliable without these traditional "reinforcements".
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-11-28 12:29
Thanks Gordon, your experience and opinions are always appreciated. I have, by the way, "pinned" cracks in walking sticks as a learning experience and realize that pinning a cylinder is another ballgame. I do believe that whether pinning is useful depends on "where" the timber is in it's state of "unrest". Putting a living tree to rest takes time and respect.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Avie
Date: 2008-11-28 17:38
I have a crack in the upper joint that doesnt go through to the bore or through any tone holes. The crack opens up when warmed up and closes almost completely when it cools off and neither distorts the tone. My question is, should I super glue when the crack is open or when it is almost completely closed? I am concerned that glueing would prevent the crack from fluctuating and end up with another problem. Any comments or ideas would be appreciated. Thanks.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-11-28 21:57
Repeated opening and closing of the crack is like fatigue in metals and will most likely gradually deepen the crack. I guess the first step would be to stabilize the moisture content in the wood. I'm sure further advice will follow from someone with more experience.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-11-29 05:05
What a dilemma.
Fill while closed, and there will be the same stresses (that caused the split) all around the circumference. when it tries unsuccessfully to open.
Fill when open, and theoretically this could increase the likelihood of split starting inside the bore, next time the clarinet dries out.
Perhaps half way, but is that cup half full or half empty?
I sure would like to know if that split continues to open and shut after several doses of one of the Doctor's Product's bore oils, which are both supposed to buffer (stabilise) the moisture content in the timber.
Why not try that first.
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