 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Fishamble
Date: 2008-11-25 10:32
Hi,
I'm an avid reader of the board, but tend to remain off the stage. I play Bb and bass clarinets regularly with a local community band, and I own a tenor sax that I only seldom play. I'm a reasonably good clarinet player.
I have a question on bass clarinet embouchure compared to tenor sax. I found the following article enlightening. It talks about warm air and cold air, wide and focussed airstreams, air volumes, etc. as comparison points between sax and clarinet.
http://www.txband.com/PDFs/TBMR/2004/2004-03-Bender1.pdf
The bass clarinet mouthpiece seems similar to the tenor sax, and I use tenor sax reeds on it. So, does it follow that a saxophone approach to embouchure is more appropriate on the bass? Or should I try to emulate the Bb embouchure as much as possible? Or is there a specific bass clarinet embouchure?
Thank you.
David.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2008-11-25 17:26
David,
My main doubles are Bb clarinet, bass clarinet, tenor saxophone, flute, and alto flute. I have a deep love for the bass clarinet.
I suspect that you'll receive different opinions regarding your questions. Here's my take....based upon my particular experiences with the bass clarinet.
Playing the bass clarinet is quite different from the tenor saxophone. The angle of playing a bass clarinet mouthpiece needs to be closer to a Bb clarinet....not straight on as with a saxophone mouthpiece.
I've experimented with various embouchures on bass clarinet. My starting point was using an embouchure similar to what I've used for years on Bb clarinet. However, I was not entirely happy with that approach. So, I experimented, traded thoughts with other bass clarinetists, and finally settled on an embouchure that works beautifully for me. In a nutshell, I use a double lip embouchure, take in quite a bit of the mouthpiece, and have a slight puff with my cheeks. With this, I have a very resonant sound and good response throughout the bass clarinet's range.
Your comment about using tenor saxophone reeds on bass clarinet is a good one. I know some bass clarinetists who also use tenor reeds. It's possible that some reed brands have similar cuts/profiles between their bass clarinet and tenor saxophone reeds. However, with the reed brand I use (Legere) there are noticable differences between the cut of their bass clarinet and tenor saxophone reeds. I tried tenor reeds on bass clarinet and did not like the results. For me, the quality of sound I got with tenor reeds was "wimpy". I found that I get a much more robust and resonant sound with bass clarinet reeds.
At least for my tenor saxophone mouthpiece (Ralph Morgan 6C) and bass clarinet mouthpieces (Walter Grabner LB), I don't find much similar between them. The shape of their beaks are considerably different. Aside from that, I've found it important to think of the bass clarinet as being different from either a Bb clarinet or a saxophone and to develop a performance approach specifically for the bass clarinet.
Hope this helps.
Roger
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-25 18:06
I was taught by my clarinet teacher to keep the embouchure very firm in the lower register and a lot more relaxed in the upper.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2008-11-25 22:13
Author: DougR
fishamble: if you haven't already done so, I recommend a lesson or two with a really high-level bass clarinetist in your area (personally I think he/she should be a practicing LEGIT bass clarinetist as opposed to sometime dabbler or infrequent doubler bass clarinetist).
I did that, and learned a great deal about how wide the tonal and dynamic palette of the bass clarinet can be. I sure wouldn't have discovered it on my own, and listening to someone talk about how to center and focus your sound (mainly a matter of breathing rather than embouchure) so you can be heard above the low brass, for example, gives you a much better idea of the compass of the instrument than you might think.
(of course it doesn't NEED to be a legit player, and I don't mean to slight everyone else. I just personally had my bass clarinet tonal conception totally turned around by studying with a legit player. well, actually, by 2 of them: once when I was about to head into the repair shop, I heard the most gorgeous chromatic scale I've ever heard on bass clarinet--robust, rich-sounding, luminous, full of "ping"--and it turned out to be Jim Ognibene, bassist with the Metropolitan Opera. If I could make my bass clarinet sound like that, I could die happy.)
I'm currently studying with a local doubler (who performs at a very high level, lucky for me) and I'm not nearly articulate enough to put all his recommendations into words, but he also recommends using double-lip on bass occasionally to discover how much air one needs to put into the instrument to get the reed to vibrate, and how much embouchure pressure there should be (not much). I'm interested that Roger uses double-lip all the time on bass, and after trying it, I can see why.
It's all so hard to put into words, I feel a lesson or two (or three, or five) with a qualified pro would be very worth your while.
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Author: Fishamble
Date: 2008-11-26 11:42
Thank you. I needed ideas for experimenting, and you've all provided me with that.
Roger, the bass clarinet I use (a Bundy) presents the mouthpiece virtually horizontally. Another reason I've thought of it as tenor-like. So perhaps some additional accommodation is required for that fact. I'll figure it out.
Doug, I will make inquiries about some lessons. Can't believe I haven't considered it before.
David.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2008-11-26 12:04
David,
Most newer bass clarinets have a neck that puts the mouthpiece at an angle. When I had an old-style bass clarinet I'd position it to have the mouthpiece at an angle.
If you ever decide to get a new bass clarinet and are not in a position (or want) to shell out a large amount of money, I highly recommend the Yamaha 221 II. Excellent instrument....especially, for its price.
Good luck to you!
Roger
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-26 13:41
Yesterday I got to compare a Q-series Selmer (low Eb) against my Buffet (low C) - the Selmer had a better (shallower) angled crook and blew the Buffet away with it's tone which had far more depth than the Buffet, and the dynamic range was larger. My Buffet felt very restrained and polite in comparison to the old Selmer.
I'm now playing on 3.5 Vandoren Java tenor sax reeds with my Pomarico 3 - I was using Java 3s before but at the last concert I tried a 3.5 which offered a much warmer and broader tone as the 3s were a bit on the flabby side. Not so long ago I was playing on 2.5s, so maybe my embouchure has undergone a significant change in that time.
However, on both the Selmer and Buffet, the upper register E to G is still a weak area due to the placement of the speaker vents which can best be resolved with a triple vent mechansim as on German basses, and Stephen Fox is developing (or probably already has developed) a triple vent speaker mech for Boehm basses - lower speaker vent for throat Bb-upper Eb, middle vent for E-G# (which will clear up these unstable notes) and crook vent for A-C.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: William
Date: 2008-11-26 14:34
I have emailed Stephen Fox requesting info on his triple octave for the boehm bass clarinet and will report more when I hear back.
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2008-11-26 17:28
I've come the conclusion that bass embouchure is very similar to clarinet embouchure in shape and feel. Its just bigger.
Like clarinet though, the angle you take the mouthpiece has a tremendous impact on the sound. If you had to play clarinet at a 90 degree angle to your face I have no doubt the embouchure would be different to create a good sound.
If you find a way to make the mouthpiece come in at a similar angle to clarinet (be it through a curved neck or tilting the instrument forwards) then I think it will help. Keep in mind also some basses are awful acoustically, particularly some of the older low C ones, which can make playing much harder.
I had some lessons with the bass player in Melbourne Symphony (who also plays on tenor reeds incidentally) and everything he did looked very similar to his clarinet embouchure. He may have said something to that effect as well, though it was a while ago. I know I got criticised for playing with too loose an embouchure - which changed the way I thought about things a bit.
I will also add, that as I became a better clarinettist (I am studying postgrad at the moment, and have been an extra player for two of the orchestras in Australia) my bass playing as improved as well, with relatively little attention paid to it.
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