 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kenny
Date: 2000-10-06 03:11
hi..
What are the ways to obtain perfect pitch or absolute pitch? For example, obtaining the capability to recognise which note is being played without looking at the piano keys. Are there any resources out there that teaches AP?
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Author: Nate Zeien
Date: 2000-10-06 03:33
Kenny, this is something that comes with experience and practice, although a few people are tone deaf. If you can tell the difference between high and low pitches, you need not worry about this. I varies from person to person how easily this can be learned. As far as resources go, I would look into ear training books and software. Good luck. :-) -- Nate Zeien
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Author: Ken
Date: 2000-10-06 03:52
PERFECT pitch? Time and time again I've found that musicians are naturally born with it, formal ear training increases accuracy but not 100% of the time.
RELATIVE pitch? Is what most of us are dealt and inherently identifies a note either a half step or full step above or below the true pitch. There are always exceptions to the rule.
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Author: Nate Zeien
Date: 2000-10-06 04:05
Ken, in my opinion, the ability to identify pitch can be improved on. Also, in my opinion, people with "perfect" pitch just have a greater natural ability to learn how to do this. There is a wide range between being tone deaf and supposed perfect pitch. I don't think there are specific categories. In most all cases, it is something that can improved upon - thus the concept of ear training. -- Nate Zeien
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Author: Bob Sparkman
Date: 2000-10-06 04:15
What the heck is perfect pitch anyway? Music is played using a tempered scale, and, in tuning up before playing, we use the standard A440, but that has varied throughout the history of Western music, as I understand it. Anthony Baines in his book on woodwinds mentions "Old Philharmonic Pitch" at A452, and, even now, some clarinet makers are furnishing instruments tuned to A444 because pitch is, apparently, "creeping up". If one were "blessed" with perfect pitch, it seems to me that whatever pitch was heard as "perfect", would make most other notes in the octave sound dreadfully out of tune. Are we talking about a superbly developed sense of relative pitch, and an equally sensitive ability to identify individual notes as they are sounded? Those are marvelous achievements, but is either "perfect pitch"? I really don't know, but logic makes me wonder.
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Author: Ginny
Date: 2000-10-06 04:31
One of my son's has definite perfect pitch, the other may or may not (he can identify a single pitch, sometimes when he really thinks about it), but has excellent relative pitch. The guy with relative pitch can play tunes by ear with ease, my perfect pitch son is getting there. The guy with perfect pitch hears melodies without context sometimes! Both are very musical, I say with no prejudice ;-)
Search for the last time this was discussed this website was listed. Its interesting.
http://www.music-cog.ohio-state.edu/Resources/information.html#Articles
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Author: Nate Zeien
Date: 2000-10-06 04:37
Bob, again I would have to say that there is no such thing as perfect pitch. There are people born who are naturally adept to learning this, as there are people who are tone deaf. Perfect, nah. How can it be perfect if it can be improved and expanded upon? Just my opinion... -- Nate Zeien
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Author: Aaron Diestel
Date: 2000-10-06 06:16
I must partly agree with Nate in that there is no such thing as perfect pitch. Noone could grow up with perfect pitch, and hear an A for the first time and tell you that's what it is. However, I could say the perfect pitch is an advanced form of relative pitch. People with perfect pitch have the ability to always hear a pitch. For instance us with good relative pitch can probablly remember what a Bb or an A sounds like because of the millions of times we have played them while tuneing. We can almost just feel this pitch because it is so familiar with it. It could be that a person with perfect pitch has the ability to not only hear/feel what an A is/sounds like with no prior given prompt, but they can hear every note in this same manner. They can just relate this feeling to something as easy as remembering what a certain word sounds like. So infact, perfect pitch could be just a higher from of relative pitch. They have to have heard an A somewhere before in their lives. However they just remember how it sounds just like we store a new word in our memories.
That may bot be completely claer, but I could explain more if needed.
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Author: Aaron Diestel
Date: 2000-10-06 06:17
I must partly agree with Nate in that there is no such thing as perfect pitch. Noone could grow up with perfect pitch, and hear an A for the first time and tell you that's what it is. However, I could say the perfect pitch is an advanced form of relative pitch. People with perfect pitch have the ability to always hear a pitch. For instance us with good relative pitch can probablly remember what a Bb or an A sounds like because of the millions of times we have played them while tuneing. We can almost just feel this pitch because it is so familiar with it. It could be that a person with perfect pitch has the ability to not only hear/feel what an A is/sounds like with no prior given prompt, but they can hear every note in this same manner. They can just relate this feeling to something as easy as remembering what a certain word sounds like. So infact, perfect pitch could be just a higher from of relative pitch. They have to have heard an A somewhere before in their lives. However they just remember how it sounds just like we store a new word in our memories.
That may bot be completely claer, but I could explain more if needed.
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Author: Ginny
Date: 2000-10-06 14:12
I will disagree... perfect pitch is not any form of relative pitch. Some people have both. The first time I explained scales (aurally) to my perfect pitch son (obvious by age 3), he became very very disoriented, almost ill. He thinks stable from C, the other boy thinks relative from any starting note. Completely different, you have no idea, you'd have to be working with them.
Also, perfect pitch occurs with great frequency in some forms of autism!
If you read some articles you'll find that perfect pitch means the ability to identify pitches out of context. It comes in varying degrees. There appears to be an enviromental component, as well as some genetic tendancy. Again, two brothers, same early musical training. They think differently about music.
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Author: William
Date: 2000-10-06 15:40
If you play a transposing instrument (like our clarinets),jthen you are better off WITHOUT perfect ptich. A good friend of mine, who is a clarinetist with perfect pitch, once remarked that she has spent her whole career transposing in her mind the "written" note to the "sounding" note. When she looks at a C, she has to think Bb, or all she hears coming out of her clarinet are major seconds (probably a result of her early training on the piano). Other "perfect pitch" people, that I have known, say that you are just as well off with a good sense of relative pitch that can be developed through practice. IMHO, people are pretty much born (cursed) with perfect pitch. Those that think they have "developed" it, really have acquired relative pitch. I knew a farmer, age about 80+, who, with no formal musical training, could tell you the "pitch" that a fence was creaking at. Couldn't read a note of music, but played on her piano what she heard off the radio or" in her mind" with absolute accuracy. One of our local music school professors can play any symphonic score on his piano by simply looking at it, "hearing" it in his mind, and then "reproducing" the sounds on his keyboard. He has been able to do this as long as he can remember (as a young piano student in Brazil) and simply says that it is a gift of God and no big deal. We, who know him as a pianist and conductor, consider him a genious. Again, a good sense of relative pitch and the ability to play in tune are all we really need, unless you REALLY NEED to know what "pitch" your fence is in. :>) Good luck.
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Author: Bob Sparkman
Date: 2000-10-06 16:10
I e-mailed William, but it didn't go through; but he makes my point. If there IS perfect pitch, it must be a curse, because we are constantly adjusting tuning to others with whom we are playing, and a sense of an immutable (perfect) pitch would make such necessity torture, I would think. So I will concede that there may be perfect pitch, but that it is a curse, and I'm glad I don't have it! Especially playing outdoors when the temperature drops to 50 degrees! Think I'd better get back to practicing!!!! Thanks all. Best regards.
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Author: Ginny
Date: 2000-10-06 19:14
I have copied a summary of some research, I posted the URL in a prior post. You are not likely to develop perfect pitch if you are older than 9. A good ear is an advantage, perfect or relative.
Absolute Pitch: An Approach for Identification
of Genetic and
Nongenetic Components
Siamak Baharloo,1,6 Paul A. Johnston,2 Susan K. Service,6 Jane
Gitschier,1,3,4,5 and Nelson B. Freimer1,4,6
Received April 11, 1997; accepted for publication December 4, 1997; electronically
published January 28, 1998.
Summary
Absolute pitch (AP) is the ability to recognize a pitch, without an external reference.
By surveying more than 600 musicians in music conservatories, training programs, and
orchestras, we have attempted to dissect the influences of early musical training and
genetics on the development of this ability. Early musical training appears to be necessary
but not sufficient for the development of AP. Forty percent of musicians who had begun
training at 4 years of age reported AP, whereas only 3% of those who had initiated
training at 9 years of age did so. Self-reported AP possessors were four times more
likely to report another AP possessor in their families than were nonAP possessors.
These data suggest that both early musical training and genetic predisposition are needed
for the development of AP. We developed a simple computer-based acoustical test that
has allowed us to subdivide AP possessors into distinct groups, on the basis of their
performance. Investigation of individuals who performed extremely well on this test has
already led us to identify several families that will be suitable for studies of the genetic
basis of AP.
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Author: Joe Spencer
Date: 2000-10-06 20:24
I am probably getting in over my head here, but I would just like to mention that the NY Times had an article several months back on research that indicated that perfect pitch (not sure if they really meant perfect or relative) was greatly influenced by 1) how much music was played in the home when one was young (could be live, records, radio); and, 2) the language spoken in the home. Item two was apparently based on the fact that some languages use greater tonal variations than others (English is fairly monotone). If a language uses tonal variation, one grows up listening for those variations to understand what is being said and is thus, in theory, better able to apply that skill to music.
(I read the article with passing interest at the time. If I knew this thread would develop I would have paid greater attention.)
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Author: Bob Sparkman
Date: 2000-10-06 21:40
Well, I guess I am REALLY in over my head! I surrender to greater knowlege, but I have one more question. If someone has perfect pitch, and a flat A is sounded (say A435), will that person say "It is flat", and if not, why not? If so, then that IS perfect pitch. Just asking. And thanks all, especially Ginny, but everyone.
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Author: Michael Holmes
Date: 2000-10-06 21:45
Kenny,
A few years ago, I subscribed to Guitar Player magazine, and in more than one issue there was an ad for a learning system that purported to teach perfect pitch. I can't vouch for it's efficacy. I remember that at the time it was selling for about $100 ($99.xx).
If you're interested, look at the current issue and see if they're still running this ad.
Mike Holmes
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Author: Ginny
Date: 2000-10-06 21:47
To Bob,
The degree of perfect pitch varies, some people with extreme perfect pitch, would definitely hear a 5 cent change, some even one cent will be noticed. I don't know if my son's degree of perfect pitch is that accurate. He gets annoyed if I bug him and check. He has found it remarkable that I cannot tell which pitch is played. He told me it was as if I could not tell red from blue.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-10-06 22:52
Ginny wrote:
>
> To Bob,
>
> The degree of perfect pitch varies, some people with extreme
> perfect pitch, would definitely hear a 5 cent change, some even
> one cent will be noticed. I don't know if my son's degree of
> perfect pitch is that accurate. He gets annoyed if I bug him
> and check. He has found it remarkable that I cannot tell which
> pitch is played. He told me it was as if I could not tell red
> from blue.
Ginny, excellent analogy here. And it gets us very close to refining the definition of perfect pitch. Those who have this ability are able to accurately discriminate between pitches, are able to hear them as absolute values, and at some point in time (usually quite young) locked them to the names that we use today for those pitches. Thus today's person with perfect pitch will call 440 hz an A but a someone of Bach's time would have associated it with the appropriate name for that time.
Just like the ability to distinguish pitches varies, so does the ability to determine gradations of color. My father once had a dark colored car, the darkness of the color making it somewhat difficult to distinguish the exact shade. He insisted that it was a very dark blue while my sister insisted it was a very dark green. I didn't bother to argue with them although it was quite plain to me that it was really a very dark blue-green!
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Author: Bob Sparkman
Date: 2000-10-06 23:09
Hi Ginny. I guess my misunderstanding arose from the words "absolute" and "perfect" which would seem to allow for no degree or shading. Your son obviously has the ability to discern such differences with amazing sensitivity. I am convinced, and grateful for the learning of it. I know other arts have similar miracles of intricacy, but I am always in awe of the beauty that arises from them in music. I don't think I'm being presumptuous to suggest that the growth of both your youngsters' musical experiences will be a marvelous adventure for you. Very best wishes.
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Author: Bob Sparkman
Date: 2000-10-06 23:19
Hello Dee - You have nicely, and vividly (!) completed my mental correction on this most intriguing of musical subjects. Hats off to you and Ginny for your clarity of explanation and patience! Best regards, and appreciation.
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Author: Frank
Date: 2000-10-07 06:18
First of all people with Absolute Pitch are not Rainman! They don't become complete enraged when tuning is set a A 442 or 438, they just adjust. One of my piano professors has absolute pitch, and when he toured Europe as an accompanist for a touring choir, the piano tuning was NEVER A440! Just just adjusted.
Second, "Perfect Pitch" is an archaic term. The term now used is absolute pitch. The main reason for this is stated that which I've already stated. And, the fact that most people with absolute pitch CAN NOT identify a pitch that has no overtones (i.e a computer generated tone). Why? I don't know.....and don't care.
Thirdly, absolute pitch is not learned (save your $98 on that damned device advertised in the back of music magazines). I some respect those who have it are in fact born with it. However, these people usually have to be exposed to and have interaction with music prior to the age of seven (7). The most recent studies that I've read say that children who are exposed to music (i.e. are taking piano lessons, have an older sibling who practices in the home, have parents who are musicians and have musicians frequent the home for "jam" sessions, etc...) have a better chance of realizing their perfect pitch. I personally know two people who ARE NOT musicians yet have absolute pitch; they are the younger siblings of musicians.
My carpal tunnel is flaring up so I'm going to sign off now.
Happy posting,
Frank
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-10-07 12:21
Frank wrote:
>
> > Thirdly, absolute pitch is not learned (save your $98 on that
> damned device advertised in the back of music magazines). I
> some respect those who have it are in fact born with it.
That statement ("absolute pitch is not learned") has beed studied and refuted countless times. A good place to learn some facts about absolute pitch and get more references to the many studies done is the article:
Absolute Pitch, W. Dixon Ward, Hearing Research Laboratory, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, Minnesota. It's contained in the book "The Psychology of Music", 2nd edition, edited by Diana Deutsch.
I don't know about the "device", but I do know about the studies.
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Author: Anonymous
Date: 2000-10-07 12:32
I read somewhere that (all? most? a lot? i'm kinda fuzzy on the details this was awhile ago) of babies are born with perfect pitch, but that most of them lose it before they get too old. Exposing them to music helps retain the ability. I don't know if that little factoid is true or not- do any of you?
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Author: Nate Zeien
Date: 2000-10-07 13:44
Frank, Mark is right. Absolute or good relative pitch CAN be learned. In fact, even people with extreme capabilities as absolute pitch. Babies don't just pop out of the womb knowing a certain pitch is "A". Nor do they come preprogrammed to sing the solfege w/ movable do. I'm no expert, but I've seen different people pick this up at different speeds. I would look into some of the ear training books and software that are used in college programs. If you work at it enough, you shouldn't be disappointed. As for $98 "device", I don't know what it is, so I couldn't tell you. When I first started to learn to identify pitches on a piano from ear, I had a bad habit of being off a major second (1 whole step). I found I was thinking in Bb. Hmm... wonder how that came to be? Anyway, over time I learned to better identify pitch on a piano (or other source), and I am still learning. Again, I must say - Absolute or good relative pitch is learned. For some who have extreme talent, it is when they are young, for others like me, it takes a little more time and effort. It can be done. -- Nate Zeien
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Author: kenny
Date: 2000-10-07 14:57
hi..
Thanks for all the interesting feedback and I agree with some of the points mentioned, especially on the part where the tuning pitch of Bb is concerned as right now I can usually recognise this particular note when it is played. Right now I'm using a Absolute Pitch Trainer tool ( a software) and I'm trying to remember notes by how they "feel"..
Anyway, one of the ways to recognise what note is being played on a instrument is the tone colour it produces, this is especially true for clarinet as it seems that different notes produces different tone colours ( compare the Bb and B for example)
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Author: The bald eagle
Date: 2000-10-07 16:44
Kenny:
If you use an A clarinet or Eb clarinet this method will confuse you.
The third line B on an A clarinet sounds as a Bb on the Bb clarinet.
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Author: Frank
Date: 2000-10-07 18:21
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. What I was trying to convey is that MOST people (ALL of the one's that I've met) did not TRAIN to have absolute pitch; it was simply a by-product of early and intense exposure to music. As for the study out of Minnesota: I have to come across that one, therefore I can not comment on it. The information I stated in my earlier post was gathered from studies which I have read, and conversations with individuals with absolute pitch.
IMHO, absolute pitch only serves undergraduate theory students (during dictation tests) and composers that don't have access to a piano. It does NOT help one play in tune (a good sense of pitch does that), and I doubt that having absolute pitch will help one to become rich and famous.
My one cent!
Frank
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-10-07 19:20
Frank wrote:
>
>
> IMHO, absolute pitch only serves undergraduate theory students
> (during dictation tests) and composers that don't have access
> to a piano. It does NOT help one play in tune (a good sense of
> pitch does that), and I doubt that having absolute pitch will
> help one to become rich and famous.
We weren't discussing the usefulness of absolute pitch, only whether or not it can be taught. The article I referred to was not a study; rather, it refers to <b>numerous</b> studies which demonstrate unambiguously that it can be taught. You wrote:
"Thirdly, absolute pitch is not learned (save your $98 on that damned device advertised in the back of music magazines)."
The studies have shown that it is and can be, and that you don't have to be "born" with absolute pitch.
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Author: Ginny
Date: 2000-10-07 21:32
I detect some resentment toward what is viewed as a gift.
Both of my kids had the gift (from me) of very early musical training. Both spent plently of time (before age 3) learning about sounds. It maybe that music is a first language for early learners, at least this was my operating theory when I did eurhythmics with them as babies. As a direct result, both of my kids have outstanding ears, one thinks relative, one thinks absolute. Why people would mistake their gifts as being natural, but no I worked at it.
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Author: Bob Sparkman
Date: 2000-10-08 00:10
Hi Ginny - I hope, most sincerely, that you found no resentment, but, rather, profound respect in my remarks. As a parent, and grandparent, you have the latter, and the only experience I can pass on, which is modest compared to yours, is that having music at home has been often cited by our grown children as an important part of their lives, now, and in their formative years. You have my deep respect and admiration.
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Author: Lelia
Date: 2000-10-08 20:06
I think that between individuals with absolute pitch, sensitivity to "off" pitch varies a lot. Some people seem to be able to "re-set" to a different pitch standard without too much trouble, but others really can't do it. My husband, who plays violin, plays with one pianist who can't learn transposing instruments such as the clarinet, because they're playing the "wrong" notes. When playing the piano with other musicians, she can adapt to a slightly sharper pitch than a=440, but anything flatter drives her right up the wall.
She tries not to drive everyone else up the wall by compaining all the time, but she had to back out of playing the harpsichord with a "period instruments" group because the group agreed to tune to a=437 and it *literally* made her sick to the stomach. She says it feels as if she's being held underwater or spun around upside down -- a pervading feeling of *wrongness* that she can't shake off. IMHO, that degree of inflexibility is a problem, not a blessing; but -- relativistically speaking! -- it's a whole lot less of a problem than a *poor* sense of pitch would be!
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