 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2008-11-17 20:44
I have been adding to my small collection of old clarinets, but am a bit stumped with identifying the key of this.
The mark is Martin Thibouville. It is 63cm (24 3/4 inches) assembled without a mouthpiece. It does not have a barrel segment separate.
The mortice for the mouthpiece is 18.4mm. The bore at the lower end of the UJ is 9.6mm
It is Boehm system
In its current state it plays fine below the break.
Put against a tuner the only setting that hits the note every time is A=457 (no surprise there) but key of Ab
I have to put PTFE around my mouthpiece to get a fit in what I assume to be the mouthpiece mortice.
An Ab soprano clarinet?
What is it? Might it be keyed differently if I had a "correct" mouthpiece? Is a section missing that goes where I am assuming the mouthpiece goes?
I have tried A=440 but nothing is in tune.
Although grubby as it currently is, I will post some photos in a bit
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-11-17 22:08
"The bore at the lower end of the UJ is 9.6mm"
This is the inner diameter of the bore?!?
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2008-11-17 22:24
whoa, this looks like a hybrid alto clarinet/A clarinet. i don't think i've ever seen that style logo either.
hmmm does it have all it's components?
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2008-11-17 22:26
skygardener wrote:
> "The bore at the lower end of the UJ is 9.6mm"
> This is the inner diameter of the bore?!?
I'm only a man and was trying to do three things at once. I should have known better than to try....
Sorry, bore measurement is 14.6mm
Chris
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-17 22:28
The bore should be somewhere between 14mm and 15mm - did you accidentally recalibrate your digital verniers when checking the bore?
What note does your tuner register when you play C?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Molloy
Date: 2008-11-17 22:39
It looks like a regular A soprano to me, 24 3/4 inches sounds about right.
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Author: 78s2CD
Date: 2008-11-17 22:39
Would you believe a G clarinet tuned to "High Pitch?" That would make it appear to be close to Ab (G#) relative to A=440. I once had a Bb clarinet that I first thought was in B natural. Then someone told me about the existance of High and Low Pitch instruments.
Jim
James C. Lockwood
Rio Rico AZ
"I play a little clarinet"
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2008-11-17 22:43
Chris P
To late in the night to try and blow it again, but when I set the tuner to key of Ab and the pitch to A=457, when I blow a C it registered a C - dead on
(By the way, I was indeed doing stupid things with my vernier scale)
I did try setting the tuner to G, but at low pitch it was in tune with nothing, and high pitch it was always exactly a semitone out.
Chris
Post Edited (2008-11-17 23:08)
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2008-11-17 23:05
does it have all it's components? - that is the question, indeed!
The only reference to that logo I have found is in this article linked here, a Google translated page
I have a site showing exhibitors of the first three great International Exhibitions – those held in London in 1851, in Paris in 1855 and again in London in 1862. It states Martin Thibouville exhibited and was an active maker 1848 to 1894. he exhibited 1855 and 1862.
This link is interesting - The Library of Congress - as it states their collection of trade catalogues "contains the 1890 issue from Martin Thibouville Ainé, E. Bercioux Successeur". The article states:
"The catalog is illustrated with engravings or woodcuts of various models, and they seem accurate enough to serve as evidence, except for the curious mistake that two of six soprano clarinet illustrations show an instrument without a barrel joint.
Hmmm
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2008-11-18 16:55
Chris P wrote:
> What note does your tuner register when you play C?
Below is a screen dump of my computer tuner
Bottom right shows tuner set to C. Middle left screen shows A=452
When I play a C - note output shows Ab ......
I really have to suspect some setting on the electronic tuner. I will have a fiddle with the settings and report back if I am using it wrongly - but it gives correct reading for my "normal" clarinet
Chris
Post Edited (2008-11-18 16:58)
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-11-18 17:11
It's not an Ab clarinet tuned to high pitch.
It's an A clarinet tuned to A=430, or thereabouts.
There's nothing very surprising about this; this pitch was common in the mid-nineteenth century. Some original-instrument orchestras play at this pitch.
Post Edited (2008-11-18 17:12)
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2008-11-18 18:17
Norbert - you are the man! (or parrot, whichever you prefer...)
As below, A=430, tuner to C, play a C, tuner says A
Thanks!
Chris
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2008-11-18 18:33
I suppose I'm fairly ignorant, but it is fascinating that someone made a Boehm clarinet in ~A=430- but I'm assuming this clarinet is 1870-80ish, is it earlier? Er, when was the switch away from salt spoon pad cups? Confused...
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Author: Geirskogul
Date: 2008-11-19 04:10
Aaah, auto-tuner. Never has such a more masterful piece of software been riddled by so much engrish.
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Author: ned
Date: 2008-11-19 04:43
''Below is a screen dump of my computer tuner''
Chris,
Where can I obtain this please?
thanks,
ned
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2008-11-19 10:04
Hi Ned
This is Auto-tuner for windows (there is a mac version). Go to this web page:
http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~tuner/tuner_e.html
About half way down the page you will see "Auto Tuner for Windows-XP etc" (the mac version is below that)
It does seem overly complicated as has some other features, but you can easily set the key it tunes to, or an instrument from a limited pick list (in which case it will even show you the fingerings!). It gives an A=??? range far beyond any other more conventional tuner I have.
It is free, all you need is a the most basic of microphones. I use a small one that cost a couple of pounds that I use with a webcam.
Chris
Edited for typos
Post Edited (2008-11-19 10:05)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-19 15:32
I like the way the actual frequency (Hz) of the played note is displayed in bold on this tuner - if only a more portable (pocket-sized) version were available!
In some ways this clarinet can have a foot in both pitches - an Ab clarinet at 452Hz or an A clarinet at 430Hz.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-01-10 18:08
Yep, unplated nickel silver keys on yours - you can see the contrast between the nickel silver and the silver solder around the joints which turns black.
And as I always maintain, the best thing about unplated keys is that imperfections can be filed, papered and polished and the finish won't be harmed as there's no plating.
Strip it down (remove all pillars too) completely and polish everything up (but be careful you don't lose the sharp edges on the key bevels), and temper all the screw heads blue.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2009-01-11 19:11
Chris P
The wood has a fine finish that I assume is shellac, but it is very fragmented and cracked.
I can 0000 wire wool it, but might there be a solvent that take the shellac off - though I guess any wood dye would go too, then.
Interested in your thoughts (or anybody else's, of course)
Chris
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2009-01-11 19:41
By the way
The photo in the second post of the thread shows what I mean about the finish on the wood
Chris
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Author: Wes
Date: 2009-01-12 08:08
How interesting!
There is an I. Lot Boehm conical bore, ring key wooden flute in my possession that is also in A 430 or 431. It's a beautiful instrument that is not really useful for playing because of it's pitch. I had thought that it probably came from about 1860 or so. The keys on these flutes were said to have been made by the uncle Louis Lot. Good lluck!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-01-12 08:49
Polish the body with dry cotton rags so it doesn't remove the finish if you want to preserve the antique look.
If the finish is shellac, it can be removed with methylated spirits and the wood can be buffed if you want to do that.
Personally I wouldn't use abrasives such as wire wool or emery paper on the wood unless you're going to buff the joints on a buffing machine.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2009-01-12 08:54
Also interestingly, you can see from the catalogue that the models 22 to 25 without the barrel joint were by far the most expensive!
Chris
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2009-01-12 08:56
Chris P
Thanks for that advice. I will experiment in a discrete place (on the clarinet that is...) and see what looks best for it
Chris
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-01-12 09:20
And I reckon you're best repadding it with leather pads - white or brown.
When cutting key corks (presumably you are going to use natural cork) slice up wine corks (you can get them from Boots) as sliced cork with the grain pattern looks much better than sheet cork with all the pores in it, though still use sheet cork for tenon corks.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Molloy
Date: 2009-01-12 14:14
I just recently got a Selmer Paris Bb soprano boehm clarinet (serial 18xx, early 1910's, I'd guess) which plays at about A=432. At first I thought maybe it had some defect, but the tonehole placement is slightly different than on a 'normal' Selmer Bb of the same vintage. The person I bought it from believed it to be a high pitch A clarinet, but I'm convinced it's an 'extra low' pitch Bb.
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