 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Kevo2012
Date: 2008-11-17 12:19
I've been experimenting with my reeds, that is the ones that come in the flow packs and the ones that come just like they were. One definite thing I have noticed with the flow packs is that the reeds are much harder and tend to have to be "bitten" in order to be able to produce an adequate sound. It is interesting because I feel like the added "humidity seal" or whatever makes the reeds actually worse because it takes longer for the reeds to age and get softer with the varying levels of humidity (I'm from Houston, TX). Just curious if any of you have similar problems or maybe lack there of and am curious what your strategy is as far as the break in process goes because these seem to take much longer to break in.
Kevin A. Collins
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-11-17 12:30
Kevin you are most likely playing on a very poorly balanced reeds. Get the ATG reed finishing system from Tom Ridenour <www.ridenourclarinetproducts> and you will have them brake in much faster,no need to bite to get control of the reed and the most important thing: Your reed will not balance out if you brake them in slowly you will have to have it balanced from the very beginning and you will get longer life from your reeds and happier playing.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-11-17 13:38
Can't be that I have to pay like 3 or 4 bucks for a reed and then have to balance it myself just to make it play a bit? Hello?
--
Ben
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Author: Lynn
Date: 2008-11-17 14:26
Ben,
For what it's worth I've been cussing clarinet reeds since 1954. Nothing, in my opinion, has changed very much in fifty-four years except the price of our common nemesis.
Fortunately I had a very early private teacher who was a graduate student at the Eastman School of Music and he taught me the "Eastman System" of balancing and adjusting reeds. It is amazingly akin to the techniques Tom Ridenour uses and teaches today, although Tom's sandpaper tool works better than a small strip of sandpaper folded over one's index finger.
I tend to think that flow paks and other high tech packaging/storage systems are, far the most part, just marketing gimmicks. I'd guess that clarinet players two or three centuries from now will still be fussing about reeds, cane, storing, adjusting, cleaning, scraping, balancing, warping, numbering, tone quality, chirps, squeaks ad infinitum.
Best wishes,
Lynn McLarty
Austin, TX
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Author: Ed
Date: 2008-11-17 15:00
'Can't be that I have to pay like 3 or 4 bucks for a reed and then have to balance it myself just to make it play a bit? Hello?"
I don't think that there is any brand of reed that I have not had to tweak (balance and adjust) to fit my desires, mouthpiece and playing. Think of it as customizing it for yourself. Yes, you can play a reed out of the box, but it is rarely optimum.
If it bothers you, try complaining to an oboe player ;-)
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-11-17 15:12
I have two students both playing Vandoren blue box and they notice no difference between flow pack and none flow pack. On the other hand my former teacher and clarinetist in the Icelandic symphony had been complaining that he had tried 3 boxes(flow pack) of V-12 with no success at all. Then we tried the ATG reed system together and bingo he got them all to play although he found reeds he bought earlier in Copenhagen Denmark that is Pclass made in Austria to be made of better can quality. But he still got his V-12 reeds to play.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-11-17 15:15
> I don't think that there is any brand of reed that I have not had to tweak
> (balance and adjust) to fit my desires, mouthpiece and playing.
I didn't complain about the tweaking per se. But why buy a $4 reed that needs tweaking when I can buy a $2 reed that needs tweaking as well?
Sure, I get a fancy plastic wrapper, and an excuse to vent. ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-11-17 15:23
Iceland clarinet wrote:
> Then we tried
> the ATG reed system together and bingo he got them all to play
The ATG system is just a simple balancing system ... I'm very surprised that a symphony player wouldn't know that those reeds needed balancing right away ...
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-11-17 16:05
Well Mark obviously you don't like the ATG system as much as I do. And yes it is simple balancing system but a lot more effective than other methods. The beauty of the system is how easy it is to use it and how great result you get with it. I think the ATG system is more than worth every penny.
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Author: leonardA
Date: 2008-11-17 16:19
I have had pretty good luck with the flow packs. I have to sand the reed a little, but after that they play pretty well.
Leonard
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Author: Eva F.
Date: 2008-11-17 16:27
i don't really mind the flowpacks, but i hope they are biodegradeable. i've
read thet they are, and read that they aren't, and i'm not quite sure what
to believe...i do hate "fixing" my reeds, though. No one at school take
kindly to my need for sandpaper or a knife...
-Eva
8th Grade Band Nerd!!!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-11-17 17:36
Iceland clarinet wrote:
> Well Mark obviously you don't like the ATG system as much as I
> do.
Huh? How did you infer that? It's a simple balancing system. It works.
My disbelief is that a professional didn't know his reed was unbalanced and you and he needed the ATG system to determine that.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-11-18 04:19
>> My disbelief is that a professional didn't know his reed was unbalanced
>> and you and he needed the ATG system to determine that.
Since it's possible to play professionally without adjusting reeds, it makes sense that at least some professionals will not know much about it. For example I had a teacher in uni, one of the biggest arrangers in the country (worked a lot abroad too), and he could barely make the stereo play a CD. In many fields there are people who are excellent but surprisingly poor at connected fields.
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Author: William
Date: 2008-11-18 14:27
"Since it's possible to play professionally without adjusting reeds"
Larry Combs--retiring principal clarinetist, Chicago Symphony Orchestra--said in a clinic that he, "doesn't have time to work on reeds." For reed selection (responding to my question) he said he just "dumps a box of reeds into a glass of water" and "if it [the reed] doesn't work right away, it's tossed out." No ATG or extreme reed work for him.
Interestingly, at that same clinic (at the old IMS store in Evanston, IL), when he did play his clarinet to demonstrate a musical or technical concept, he played with a Legere reed--and sounded less than wonderful.
Regarding the Legere reed, he said he "would never use it in the symphony", however, "it is comforting to know that you always have a reed in your case that will work".
FYI, he was playing on his Leblanc Opus Bb with a custom Hawkins mpc and a Vandoran Optimum lig. Said he stopped using the Leblanc "Combs" mouthpiece because of "quality control issues".
(BTW--I also hate the Flowpack reeds, not so much for the packaging, but for how poorly they are playing--even with lots of curing and balancing)
Post Edited (2008-11-18 14:29)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-11-18 15:08
William wrote:
> Larry Combs--retiring principal clarinetist, Chicago Symphony
> Orchestra--said in a clinic that he, "doesn't have time to work
> on reeds."
That's a very different statement than not knowing how to work on reeds ...
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-11-18 17:59
Where and when did I say that he didn't know how to work on reeds(I knew it before I got the ATG system but it took much longer time and the result was not too good and clipping the reed was not a good option like after working on the reed with the ATG system). But if you Mark know of system to work on reeds that takes as short time as the ATG system and is lot cheaper but with the same or even better result I sure would like to know.
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2008-11-18 21:31
Iceland,
all the ATG system is is sand paper and where to scrape the reed. Thats it. IT's not a miracle and has been around a long time. I actually don't even use it much anymore after having it for over 4 years now. I mostly have small squares of sandpaper on hand as well as a reed knife. And this is much faster than the ATG system.
The key to reed reed adjusting is knowing what you are doing. The ATG is a good system because it shows you some general areas of the reed to focus on but it is by no means the fastest or the best method possible. IT is simply one method that yeilds decent results.
Post Edited (2008-11-18 21:32)
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-11-18 21:55
Well Ryan if you know of system that balance a reed in less than a minute then I would like to know of it. I've tried sandpaper,knives and the Vandoren reed stick and resurfacer with ok result with the Vandoren stick and resurfacer(better with the latter) but none to bad result with knives and sandpaper alone.
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2008-11-18 22:22
"Well Ryan if you know of system that balance a reed in less than a minute then I would like to know of it. I've tried sandpaper,knives and the Vandoren reed stick and resurfacer with ok result with the Vandoren stick and resurfacer(better with the latter) but none to bad result with knives and sandpaper alone."
I use sand paper and a knife and get better results now then I did with the ATG system. It took a while to learn what I am doing but now that I have a pretty clear idea of how I like my reeds to function on my mouthpiece, it's really quite simple to get my reeds working the way I want in a manner of seconds.
I'm happy you like the ATG so much but the product it's self is fairly basic if you ask me. I also found that using the ATG does have some problems that should not be over looked. The methods used with the ATG take material from a fairly large and general area of the reed. Sometimes this is needed and other times, you end up making the tip or parts of the tip too thin when all that was needed was a slight adjustment behind the tip on one side of the reed. In my experience, nothing wrecks a reed faster than taking too much material away from the tip area. I find that most reeds that need adjustment only need adjustments done in very, very specific places and the ATG simply can not do this type of adjustment.
With that said, the system does have it's merits. If a reed is grossly out of balence along the vamp on one side compared to the other or if the entire tip area is balenced but much too thick then the ATG can be helpfull. I often find very few reeds that actually have these specific problems which is why I almost don't use the ATG anymore.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-11-18 22:35
Well in my opinion it's best to use 1/2 strength harder reeds than you need when working with the ATG system so sometimes it's enough to finish the tip and sometimes you need to finish the sides. The reason I like this system is it works on the reed like it's one smooth area instead focusing on small detail spots and making gaps in it. Well I don't know how long it takes you with sandpaper and knife but I'm happy with how fast(usually less than a minute) it takes beside I have too many times when I used a knife forgotten to take it out of my clarinet case when traveling with a airplane. Looks like people are very surprised around here so Ryan I'm surprised you've ruined a reed with the ATG system. You must have worked hard on that.
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2008-11-18 22:54
Iceland,
I never said I ruined a reed with the ATG system. I said that it is easy to ruin a reed if too much material is taken away from the tip area of a reed and the ATG is prone to doing that if youre not careful.
Enjoy you new ATG. I'm sure a year or two from now you will be on to something else. I seem to remember you a few years ago singing the praises of your Walter Grabner mouthpiece only to attack him unfairly on this board and then start to sing the praises of the Genussa mouthpiece. I have a feeling you will do the same thing with the ATG.
Again, The ATG system is just sand paper and a flat surface to work on the reed. One day you will learn what you are doing and how to make specific adjustments to a reed with out wrecking it.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-11-19 00:45
The ATG system is not just a sandpaper and a flat surface. It's the method and the instruction too. Well I can sing the praises of the Gennusa and Grabner mouthpieces and the ATG system but I'm sure I will not sing the praises of your opinions thank you!!!!!! You know two can play the arrogant game.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-11-19 10:24
Most complicated things look easy after someone shows you how to do them and that's what Mr.Ridenour has done. All a clarinet is is a long tube with holes and keys and other parts....
Bob Draznik
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-11-19 13:50
Bob Draznik thank you very much for your wise word!!!!!!!!!! I've been trying to adjust my reeds for about 8 years but now I finally can do it much faster with fantastic result.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2008-11-20 02:22
A couple of points:
As far as flow paks are concerned, I don't know that any change in the vibrancy of the reeds "out of the box" can necessarily be blamed on the packaging. VanDoren (and other reed manufacurers, too) have always had streaky results depending on the quality of the cane itself, which is rather more vulnerable to weather and other environmental vagueries than most reed players like to accept. Cane's a natural product - if the reeds have been cut from a batch of poor cane, they aren't going to play as well as ones cut from a better batch that was harvested at a different time.
That said, I personally have had no special problems with the reeds themselves since the packaging was "improved." - Except that I hate having to rip all those packages open (some of them don't tear easily even where the starter notch is) and then I have to collect all that stuff and get it to a trash can. It's a nuisance that I don't imagine really contributes much, since the reeds have to acclimate to *my* environment sooner or later anyway. And there is the question I've always had about using those plastic holders - I tried to return them for awhile about 20 years ago and found the manufacturers were not happy to take them back.
I wonder if Combs may have used the Legere in part to avoid having to constantly deal with re-wetting a reed during a demonstration, where he probably was stopping to talk for long enough periods to let the reed start to dry out.
One comment I would make about ATG is that you *have* to go through the video (with all the time it takes to get through Tom R's explanations, which tend to be a little verbose and repetitive), because the printed manual is far less clear than his demonstration (or at least this was true when I bought mine a couple of years ago). I wish he'd flesh out the manual a little (maybe he has by now) - I read much faster than he speaks and I could go back to re-read parts as needed more easily that finding a spot in the video.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-11-20 02:30
Well I got more information reading the manual than watching the dvd although I testing the reed was made a bit clearer in the dvd. In fact I began to read the manual and then watched the dvd.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2008-11-20 04:19
I did the same thing (read first, watched after). Maybe the manual is improved, or maybe I just wasn't reading as well. I didn't find the tool useful until I watched how he used it in the video. I misunderstood the location and direction (other than starting at the tip - "Against The Grain"=ATG) until I saw what he meant.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-11-20 13:12
One thing I keep asking me over and over is why on earth people complain and complain about Vandoren reeds but keep playing them and keep playing them. I for sure don't understand it at all.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2008-11-24 10:27
Well, I just got my first two flowpack reeds ever from a friend: 56 Rue LePic's, no. 3, and actually... they were quite acceptable! :-) (ducks for cover?)
I can understand a retailer using the flowpack to sell individual reeds - they begin to look worth the £2 (?) a reed, and you're guaranteed that no-one's tried them out (yuk!). I can't really understand boxing them up, except to reduce the number of stock items on a production line.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-11-24 10:36
But Bassie why does Vandoren have to think like that(if they do) for the retailer who want's to sell individual reeds but not Rico,Gonzalez,Marca,Xilema etc. ?
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2008-12-01 04:04
Usually I just play reeds out of the box and most are fine. Occasionally I sand a little and sometimes that even helps. I got some flow pack Bb reeds and thought they were not as good as the prior blue box Van Dorns I had been using. However, the Flow pack tenor Java reeds were better. Sometimes when a reed stops playing well, i use a needle spring to jab holes about a half inch from the tip and sometimes this rejuvenates the reed.
Somebody looked at one of those flow pack tenor reeds and remarked "Those look like condoms. I suppose you are practicing safe sax."
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Author: Sambo 933
Date: 2008-12-01 20:13
Ha! I know a sax player who has a mug that says "practice safe sax"
any way I also dislike the flow packs. I believe that shipping the reeds sealed in french air makes them resistant to being used in a climate with (very) different humidity.
I've used Mitchell Lurie reeds and they play great right out of the box.
The only reason I still use vandorens is because after the the Mitchells start to get softer my tone gets brighter than I like it and the vandorens don't get as soft as fast.
I plan to experiment with the vandoren rue lepic 56 reeds and possibly the v12's in to darken up my tone a bit.
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