 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: BandJunkie
Date: 2008-11-09 22:07
Hi everyone! I'm new here, so I thought I should introduce myself. I've been playing my Artley Bflat clarinet for around 41 months, taking private lessons in the summer and joing the school band during the school year. (I've been in the school band since 7th grade and I'm now in 8th.) I've made first chair in all my chair placements, I was in the state honor band last year, and I got to play for and meet the principal clarinetist from the state orchestra. Any questions?
I have a question about band : How do I point out that someone in my section is playing something incorrectly without sounding like an arrogant horse? I've tried circling things and writing in all capitals on the sheet music, hoping they'll take notice (this failed), and I was playing everything really exaggerated (also failed), so I've finally given up. Any ideas?
-- I look at my clarinet sometimes and I think, I wonder what's going to come out of there tonight? You never know. -- Acker Bilk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jacob S
Date: 2008-11-09 22:45
Hello! I am reasonably new as well (at least to posting here). I think that if you are solidly the best player in your section, the other people shouldn't take offense to constructive criticism. Most people will react to commands, but not orders. If your friendly comments still don't work after honest, persistent trying, don't worry! Most likely your band director will have already noticed and may have a plan to address the problems.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: reprise
Date: 2008-11-10 00:18
I think you have several more options to try. First, there is the direct-but-friendly-and-lighthearted approach. Something like -- "I didn't know if you realized this -- but this note is supposed to be a C# and I think you're playing a C-natural." Said with a smile.
If you're afraid of embarrassing the person, you could tell them about it privately before rehearsal.
If you're uncomfortable telling the person directly, you can ask your band director to address it. Take him aside quietly before rehearsal. Say something like, "I noticed that X is playing this part incorrectly, but I don't really feel comfortable saying anything. Could you mention it when we rehearse this piece?" Or, if you don't want to name names, "I don't think we're all playing this part correctly -- could you take a few minutes to go over it during rehearsal?"
Ideally, as first chair, you should be in a position to be offering assistance to other players and to help make your section sound as good as possible. But, I know that in junior high & high school, this isn't always so easy --- and well meaning attempts to offer constructive criticism can end up backfiring. (I am quite glad that those years are long behind me!)
But, I think it's great that you're listening carefully and aware of what's going on in your section. Be direct, but be friendly and kind. If you are, and they still take offense, it's really more their problem than yours. :-) Good luck!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-11-10 00:20
> I have a question about band : How do I point out that someone in my
> section is playing something incorrectly without sounding like an arrogant
> horse? I've tried circling things and writing in all capitals on the sheet
> music, hoping they'll take notice (this failed), and I was playing everything
> really exaggerated (also failed), so I've finally given up. Any ideas
Usually (and mostly everywhere) the "I need help with this" approach often works best: Just ask the band mate "do you have sixteenths here as well? I think I'm having an issue with the rhythm, care to explain it to me?" (or whatever the real problem is). You two go over the sheet, clap the rhythm etc.
Working out a problem together usually clears things up for both parties. (And sometimes there are typos in the sheets with the effect that 1st and 2nd clarinet just can't align)
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mrn
Date: 2008-11-10 00:25
I don't think being the best player in the section has anything to do with this (and I'm saying this as somebody who, like you, was 1st chair pretty much their entire school career--I was in the 8th grade about 20 years ago). Everybody makes mistakes. If you know your standmate is doing something incorrectly on a consistent basis, be nice, but all you have to do is say something. Making big marks on the page or changing the way you play as a "hint" may actually make things worse. (In fact changing the way you play may make the music sound worse, which is definitely NOT what you want to do!)
If it's a wrong note, you can even act like you don't know who's wrong, but would like your standmate to play through it with you because something didn't sound right to you. Then, in the context of playing it together (where he'll likely notice the mistake himself, actually), you can politely point out that you think he's playing an F# instead of an F (or something like that).
You can also say something like, "I don't mean to nitpick, but it sounds to me like maybe you're tonguing that note when it's marked slurred." Chances are he'll say something like, "Oh...I didn't realize I was doing that. Thanks."
If you're standmate doesn't take it the right way or refuses to take your advice, then just let it go, and let the director handle it. That's his job, ultimately.
Helping your standmate correct something, by itself, is not arrogant. What WILL be seen as arrogance is if you project an image that you assume that you are going to be correct or know better than your peers by virtue of your level of accomplishment. By the same token, you should not take offense if someone points out to you a mistake you are making. We all make them--that includes you, too.
You have every right to be proud of your musical accomplishments, but there is no reason why you should have to prove to anyone that you're right about something musical by listing what those accomplishments are. If a note's wrong, it's wrong, whether the guy playing the wrong note (or the guy who notices it) is a world-famous recording artist or a beginner band student. That's just a fact.
And yes, even the *legends* of music--indeed some the exalted legends of clarinet playing--have been known to botch things up from time to time--sometimes royally. In fact, one of the most painful tuning mishaps I've ever heard was in a famous recording by . . . . naah, I won't speak ill of the dead (let's just say it was bad enough to keep me from buying it on iTunes). So a little bit of humility is good thing, even (in fact, I'd say especially) if you're first chair. But at the same time, you don't have to have "credentials" to recognize when something is right or wrong, nor should you feel bad about sharing constructive criticism with a fellow section member if it's going to help. The "pecking order" created by chair tests, etc. doesn't really have anything to do with it.
All the best to you in your musical endeavors!
Post Edited (2008-11-10 04:05)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hans
Date: 2008-11-10 03:26
Bandjunkie,
Re: "I was playing everything really exaggerated" - that approach is definitely not a good idea.
Try to focus on the problem and avoid making it a personal issue; e.g., "we seem to be interpreting this section differently; perhaps we should decide on an approach that works for both of us....."
Hans
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BandJunkie
Date: 2008-11-10 03:51
Thank you soooo much, everyone!!! I truly appreciate all of your hints and advice, and, since I have band tomorrow, I will see what I can do to improve the overall quality of the 8th grade clarinet section!!
-- I look at my clarinet sometimes and I think, I wonder what's going to come out of there tonight? You never know. -- Acker Bilk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-11-10 14:21
Playing clarinet is easy compared to "people skills". I can't believe you're only in 8th grade and submitted this question. You can find the same problem with people who are 80 years old. This would be a great question for your band director to discuss. (not in reference to specific people). It's great to teach people fingerings and techniques but it is just as important to know about ensemble and section leaders. It isn't simple. The section leader has to say something. It's when , what to say and how to say it that is the problem. Imagine a car mechanic who has to fix an engine problem......don't try to fix it while the car is in motion....make sure you're actually fixing the real problem and don't always use a sledge hammer.
Freelance woodwind performer
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BandJunkie
Date: 2008-11-11 19:45
Thanks!! I have another question, though : Today I was blamed for playing something too fast (by one of my fellow clarinetists), but I played the passage correctly/how it was meant to be played. What should I say about this? Thanks in advance!
-- I look at my clarinet sometimes and I think, I wonder what's going to come out of there tonight? You never know. -- Acker Bilk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2008-11-11 20:49
BandJunkie,
If this is with a large group and there is a conductor, you follow the conductor.
Imagine what would happen if everyone was playing out of time!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-11-11 22:36
> If this is with a large group and there is a conductor, you follow the
> conductor.
Funny, our conductor says "don't look at me, don't hang on my baton, listen to the left and to the right, keep together." He once had the lights switched off and we'd play in a pitch dark room, and it worked. The only thing that came from him was the counting off.
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2008-11-11 23:45
We also practice without a conductor sometimes, but you can check if you are going too fast or slow if you just look up at the conductor.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BandJunkie
Date: 2008-11-12 00:32
I heard from someone that you should look up at the conductor AT LEAST once every measure, and I really took that to heart!! It wasn't that I was playing too fast, but that the rest of the band was starting to slow down, so I stuck with the conductor, just as you guys said. It just really irked me that I was blamed for something that I didn't do.
-- I look at my clarinet sometimes and I think, I wonder what's going to come out of there tonight? You never know. -- Acker Bilk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-11-12 07:26
> I heard from someone that you should look up at the conductor AT LEAST
> once every measure, and I really took that to heart!! It wasn't that I was
> playing too fast, but that the rest of the band was starting to slow down,
> so I stuck with the conductor, just as you guys said. It just really irked me
> that I was blamed for something that I didn't do.
Well, the "correct" tempo is always relative, and one can discuss whether it's better to stay with the conductor or with the rest of the ensemble. (ideally, everyone plays at the same pace, of course).
This might be something you can ask your maestro about, without referring to that specific incident. I was taught to stay with the ensemble if ever possible, just because else the group acoustically falls apart which is always worse than an unplanned rubato or accelerando.
Fact is, you may have had the correct tempo, but relative to the rest of the band you were too fast. Get over it, not worth making a big issue about it.
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mrn
Date: 2008-11-12 14:28
cxgreen48 wrote:
<<BandJunkie,
If this is with a large group and there is a conductor, you follow the conductor.>>
Although I'm not sure in which sense cxgreen48 used the words, I interpret "follow the conductor" in a broader sense to mean "do it his way." While looking up is often less important than listening, what is "correct" is always relative to the conductor's instructions (which may be verbal or presented in "real-time" with the baton [or hands, if we're talking about somebody like Pierre Boulez who doesn't use a baton]). That's why we have conductors in the first place--otherwise, it's not that easy to get 50-80 players (especially where there are frequent personnel changes from performance to performance) to agree on style and interpretation!
Sure, there are ensembles who don't use conductors, and there are times when ensembles with conductors will play without one (to pay tribute to a deceased former conductor, for example), but they do play an important role, *especially* in a school band or orchestra (and even more so in junior high), where the players not only have to play together, but they have to learn the ins and outs of the style of music they are trying to play.
A lot of things that the conductor of a school ensemble has to explicitly tell the students to do, the members of a professional ensemble would most likely do from the get-go, because of their familiarity with musical style. For example, there's *far less* (if anything) a conductor has to tell, let's say, the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment (a professional period ensemble that specializes in 18th century performance) about classical-style phrasing than would be the case in a school or youth orchestra. (I just read Tony Pay's article on classical phrasing the other day, which is why I'm thinking about this.)
I would also say that looking up is probably more important for playing in a school band than it is in a professional or pseudo-professional group. School groups (as you know) have a much wider disparity in skill levels between members than do professional groups. It's harder to get away with keeping your nose in the music in a school group because you can't trust the sounds you're hearing around you as readily (i.e., you can't tell who to follow because everyone's a bit off). Fortunately, school groups practice enough that by the time you have to perform with one, you won't have to look at the music as much as you would, say, in a professional or semi-professional ensemble where you might have one or two rehearsals and then go (and where you have to play a much greater variety of pieces).
At the same time, though, you have to use your ears and cannot rely solely on the baton. If *EVERYONE* slows down, but you don't, you're the culprit--that's just the way it is. And in many cases (this is especially true in orchestras--make region orchestra in high school enough times and you will see what I am talking about), an ensemble will normally play a split-second *behind* the baton, so "following the baton" can actually get you in trouble in those cases. You must stay with the ensemble, even if the ensemble rushes or drags. If the ensemble as a whole does not follow the conductor, that is the conductor's dilemma, not yours. The ensemble as a whole has to keep an eye on the conductor to prevent rushing and dragging, but your ears are the final judge.
Have we confused you enough?
Post Edited (2008-11-12 15:01)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BandJunkie
Date: 2008-11-12 19:44
The only thing I'm really having a problem dealing with is the fact that I WAS BLAMED FOR PLAYING TOO FAST WHEN IT WASN'T MY FAULT. The rhythm was 1-2-and-3-and-4-1-2-3-4, but someone was playing is as all eighth notes, and I WAS BLAMED FOR IT.
-- I look at my clarinet sometimes and I think, I wonder what's going to come out of there tonight? You never know. -- Acker Bilk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-11-12 19:51
Move on and concentrate on the music and task in hand which is being section leader clarinet. Respect your fellow clarinet players and (hopefully) they will respect you.
Peter Cigleris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EEBaum
Date: 2008-11-12 20:04
If you want to get nitpicky...
Following the conductor exactly is, in my experience, technically impossible. Lots of people *think* they're doing it, but in fact they're just making an educated guess at conductor-following. There are so many minute factors involved in sound production, visual perception, audio perception, reaction times, etc., that it's ridiculous to assert that we can all have uniform translations from visual input to audio output. What a group *can* do, time-wise, is listen to each other to establish a baseline of where the beat and tempo will be, and look to the conductor for relative velocity and acceleration/deceleration of tempo.
I've been accused of rushing lots of times where I insist I wasn't, and I may very well not have been. However, the real problem in those situations is usually one of the following:
1) The ensemble is watching rather than watching+listening.
2) The ensemble, conductor included, is dragging (possibly unintentionally) and I'm not going with them.
3) The ensemble is dragging, not following the conductor's velocity.
4) I've gotten a bit excited.
The solution for all of these is NOT to determine who is rushing or dragging, as it's a temporary fix for each situation. The solution is for everyone to listen to each other. This is tricky because, as an ensemble member yourself, you may have trouble getting this done. What you *can* do is to suggest that the parts aren't lining up and request that the group run it more slowly (and/or softly, which can be critical to listening) so you can better hear where things interlock. This gets everyone listening, and usually fixes the problem.
What you can do yourself, without interrupting the rehearsal, is to play with the ensemble, wherever the ensemble goes, even if it feels draggy (to a reasonable extent). It may feel like you're dragging badly with the group at first, and it may seem a counterintuitive way to fix what you percieve as a dragging problem. However, at this point, the problem changes from "everyone's playing out of time with each other" to "the ensemble sounds kinda draggy now." If you're playing in synch with each other, you accomplish the following:
1) If it stays draggy, you can suggest that maybe we perk up the tempo
2) You can no longer be identified as a source of the problem
3) You are no longer making the problem worse by distracting (by playing at what you think is, and may well be, the right tempo) the problem of a draggy tempo with a new problem of an out-of-synch ensemble
4) In my experience, it is actually easier to try to push the tempo forward slightly if you start from a baseline of "with the ensemble" rather than sounding like you're rushing.
5) Unencumbered by synchronization issues, the group may become more comfortable with the passage, unanimously and simultaneously realize the draggery, and perk up the tempo without anyone having to say anything.
6) You may find out that you were indeed rushing in the first place.
Setting out to drag with everyone else feels counterintuitive, but I've found that it can often be the most productive course of action. Note that this does not apply in sections where you are singularly depended on for keeping the tempo up.
As for a note out of place, a fairly good neutral tactic is to ask for a note check. Say "there's something crunchy happening at 3 after A. Could we check the 4th note on there?" Say it in a manner that suggests that it's probably a misprint in the score. No accusations, problem gets fixed, everyone happy.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EEBaum
Date: 2008-11-12 20:10
BandJunkie wrote:
>>The only thing I'm really having a problem dealing with is the fact that I WAS BLAMED FOR PLAYING TOO FAST WHEN IT WASN'T MY FAULT. The rhythm was 1-2-and-3-and-4-1-2-3-4, but someone was playing is as all eighth notes, and I WAS BLAMED FOR IT.
Just read this part after my monster-post.
This is a rhythm issue, not a playing-too-fast issue. Request that you work the rhythm out. Pretend you're the one who had the problem, or at least that the problem came out of nowhere. If someone accuses you of doing something wrong that you think you did right, immediately just request, "can we try that again?" The problem will be fixed soon enough. I've only ever had one experience (and it was a doozy) where just requesting that something be tried again went badly.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BandJunkie
Date: 2008-11-12 22:51
Thank you!! Everything is much clearer now, and I think I will talk to my director more about the issue of playing with the band when they're draggy or sticking with the director.
-- I look at my clarinet sometimes and I think, I wonder what's going to come out of there tonight? You never know. -- Acker Bilk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Nessie1
Date: 2008-11-13 08:16
One other thing which I don't think has been mentioned - if you are playing in a very large room, there can be an appreciable time lapse between the sound from those nearest the front and the sound from those nearest the back reaching any given point - i.e. the conductor or some point in the audience. May be worth thinking about whether those at the back need to anticipate very slightly.
Vanessa.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BandJunkie
Date: 2008-11-14 11:29
Thanks, Vanessa!!
-- I look at my clarinet sometimes and I think, I wonder what's going to come out of there tonight? You never know. -- Acker Bilk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EEBaum
Date: 2008-11-14 17:00
If you're concerned about back-to-front delays, I'd say for the front of the ensemble to listen to the back for time, with the back not listening frontwise for time. Anticipating runs the risk of getting you into murky perceptions of time again.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Eva F.
Date: 2008-11-15 01:46
Hey people!!!
Going back to the very first post, i'm new here too!!! I signed up...yesterday.
So anyway, i'm in eighth grade, first chair, BIG band nerd. I totally sympathize with your problem, BandJunkie. The second chair clarinet cannot get it through her head that you're supposed to play the notes marked staccato SHORT. I've tried your tactics, but i dont want to make my corrections blatantly, because the second chair is the band directors kid!!!
Any help?!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BandJunkie
Date: 2008-11-15 02:19
The band director's kid?!?! That's a toughie, for sure. Something that I recently tried and actually worked (a little) is to ask to see their music and point out whatever is being played incorrectly. Otherwise you could talk to the director and see if they can talk to their son/daughter. It's strange, isn't it? Some people just cannot understand that staccato is SHORT SHORT SHORT!! Huh.
Hope I could be of some help to you, Eva!! Good luck and keep us updated!!
-- I look at my clarinet sometimes and I think, I wonder what's going to come out of there tonight? You never know. -- Acker Bilk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Eva F.
Date: 2008-11-15 02:40
i will try your advice saturday! Glad SOMEONE understands!
Thanks,
-Eva
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mrn
Date: 2008-11-15 04:16
BandJunkie wrote:
<<It's strange, isn't it? Some people just cannot understand that staccato is SHORT SHORT SHORT!! Huh.>>
Actually, I wouldn't say that staccato means "SHORT SHORT SHORT."
To be sure, notes written with staccato dots are short (actually "detached" is a better term), but not as short as staccatissimo notes (marked with little black triangles pointing down instead of dots), which are really short.
And even staccato notes aren't always very short--how short the staccato dotted-notes should be played depends on the context.
So without hearing anyone play, it's entirely possible that the band director's kid is actually playing the notes the correct length and Eva is playing them too short, because how "short" is "short" depends on a lot of factors, and the director has the final word. If there is a discrepancy, the professional thing to do is to simply ask the director how short he (or she) wants the notes played. That way nobody gets labeled as being right or wrong, and the issue is resolved. Otherwise, it's entirely possible that nobody (not even you) is playing the passage properly. You could all be producing different varieties of "too long" or "too short" articulation, all in the name of playing "staccato." In short, "staccato" is whatever the director says it is.
What you need to be striving for is uniformity and consistency across the section, which is not the same thing as singling out the culprits in the section for correction. Just because you understand what the notation stands for, that does not mean your interpretation of the notation is necessarily the correct one to follow--you're not the director, after all (and this is a student group). If there is a lack of uniformity in the section, you really should assume that everyone (including you) could be at fault until the director says otherwise. If you're trying to correct somebody else, and it turns out you're not right, that's almost worse than saying nothing at all.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EEBaum
Date: 2008-11-15 17:00
Technically, many people maintain that staccato simply means to play at half the duration, i.e. staccato 8th is played as a 16th with a 16th rest.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Eva F.
Date: 2008-11-16 02:00
ok, i'm not THAT picky, but the band director's kid plays them practically legato. i
probably won't say anything, mrn, so don't worry. i'm not really the kind to
contradict. also, in a (not so good) junior high band, the definition of staccato is
"shorter than normal". And the director has already specified that he wants the
notes to be played in a "disconnected" fashion.
Thanks for your help,
-Eva ![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif)
8th Grade Band Nerd!!!
Post Edited (2008-11-16 15:02)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BandJunkie
Date: 2008-11-16 03:18
You're not even going to say anything, even though it's incorrect? I think you should at least try.
-- I look at my clarinet sometimes and I think, I wonder what's going to come out of there tonight? You never know. -- Acker Bilk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Eva F.
Date: 2008-11-16 15:08
maybe i'll just pass a little offhand comment to everyone in general. then it won't
seem like i'm blaming anyone specific. and i won't sound like a horse or any other
impolite barnyard animal!! i normally try to avoid blatantly correcting people,
because in a small town with a school with three grades and 230 people, thins like
that can morph into something worse VERY fast.
-Eva
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mrn
Date: 2008-11-16 16:24
I still think the best course of action is to ask *the director* for clarification about the articulation length in front of everyone else. You can tell him that not everybody's articulating the same way as part of the question. That way he'll be the one correcting the section, and it will clue him in that this is something he needs to listen for.
Even if you're correct and it's other people in the section who are playing incorrectly, it's still better this way because then the director can do something about it.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
