 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2008-11-15 14:39
A few weeks ago, David Blumberg started an interesting thread when he asked if other private teachers were experiencing a dropoff in their student numbers. I would like to pose a related question to all of you who teach privately.
What do you do if you have a talented student (very nice girl, very nice family who always pays on time) who can't afford private lessons anymore? I'm going to be very vague on the details, but this recently happened to me. Both parents have good jobs that pay well, but their employers are in bad financial shape. They fear layoffs, and their fears are genuine. The parents are trying to plan ahead and make cutbacks in their family budget, and I honestly can't blame them.
Do any of you have any thoughts? I've considered lowering my fee for this family, but is this fair to others who pay full price? I've also thought about cutting some of the weekly lessons to 20 minutes which would lower the price a little--do you think this could be a viable solution? Another possibility might be going every other week, but this is a young student and I'm concerned about continuity.
I look forward to reading your ideas. Thank you.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-11-15 15:16
Maybe do a trade and she can mow your lawn or something?
Also, you can lower your price for them if you want to. If you are working privately, the price any student pays is between you and them.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-11-15 16:00
I've given scholarships (part, full, whatever works) to make that happen. Divorce was a common factor over the years that I'd see as a problem of sudden need. Typically it was temporary.
Gigliotti gave me a full scholarship for lessons for an entire semester when I had to take off school that semester to work to afford to keep going.
Other thing you could do is to reduce them to every other week.
The work idea is of course too an option.
The bad financial shape or layoff pending is really common these days.
True that the price a student pays is between you and them, however students do talk even if it's someone asking about you as a prospective student. So if you do give a discount be sure to let them know that they are receiving a very special rate due to individual circumstancces and to quote your regular rate to someone else inquiring about you.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: reprise
Date: 2008-11-15 17:34
One thing I'm wondering -- are you certain that the girl really wants to continue? (i.e.., that the parents didn't tell her "money's tight" and she said, "no problem, i'm getting tired of this clarinet thing anyway...")
That said, I remain eternally gratefully to various teachers who helped me over the years -- and if you are in a financial position to make special arrangements for her, and she would be happy to continue, then I'd say go for it.
In high school, I had a scholarship for lessons at a conservatory during the school year, but it didn't cover summer lessons. One summer, my teacher taught me for free because he didn't want me to be away from instruction for three months. As an adult, I was taking guitar lessons for fun, but had some medical expenses come up. I had a relatively low paying job and had to tell my teacher that I couldn't continue. She insisted that I keep coming and said, "Just pay me back sometime in the future when you can. I don't care when. Someone did that for me once." It was quite awhile before I could write her that check, but she was never resentful and genuinely wanted to do this for me. In both cases the teachers liked me and knew I was a good student and that music was very important to me.
On the other hand, there's nothing quite so icky as being given special consideration and then feeling like the person is resenting you for it or treating you differently. So, I'd be careful to be clear with your own emotions about how it will feel to do this -- and to be careful to cut off any unexpected resentment either by renegotiating or having a backup plan. Maybe you could try it for a limited time? "I'm comfortable offering you this reduced rate for the next X months... and let's talk again then to see where to go from there."
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2008-11-15 18:09
You don't mind offering a deal if the student always comes prepared. Forget it if they don't practice anyway. In that case I would feel used if my student did that to me.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-11-15 18:14
An alternative might be to defer payment for say three months, or a mix like "half rate now, rest deferred by three months".
Of course, this requires a minimal contract etc so that not suddenly everyone and their cousin wants to participate in the same kind of arrangement.
Question to think about:
If that student stopped, would I have someone to fill the gap, or would I just sit there twiddling thumbs instead? (in the latter case, you might as well continue teaching with whatever arrangement you figure is best)
--
Ben
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Author: Jaysne
Date: 2008-11-15 18:44
I would try bartering. My trumpet teacher had a student whose father was a dentist. So they traded free lessons for free dental services.
Depending on the student, I might decide to lower my price a little, if I truly enjoyed working with that student. But come on, is asking for five or ten dollars less a week really going to make a viable difference in their situation?
And this is all speculation, of course. From what you've said, the family has not said anything to you about stopping lessons or not being able to afford them. Jumping to conclusions about whether or not they can afford lessons is kind of disrespectful to them. Do you know for sure that they would need to stop lessons? I think cutting lessons would be one of the last things I'd do if I were a concerned parent. Few things are more important than a child's education. They may be so happy with you as their daughter's teacher, that lessons would be one thing they would not want to cut.
You're also being disrespectful to yourself, not thinking that you're worth continuing lessons with come hell or high water. Both parents have good-paying jobs? Then that means they probably have some money to fall back on, and there's no reason why they shouldn't pay you your fee. I am always happy to pay for quality, and if you're a good teacher, they'll be happy to pay you.
If the family does end up needing to cut back, you really need to talk with the family; it's a personal issue that outside strangers like us can't really have a handle on.
Post Edited (2008-11-15 19:20)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-11-15 19:03
> If you barter, just keep in mind that the IRS always wants a cut....
Would they be content with that excavated root canal or the lawn clippings?
Or do you mean they're interested in bartering as well? I cut your hair, you cut my taxes? ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2008-11-16 12:28
>Jumping to conclusions about whether or not they can afford lessons is >kind of disrespectful to them. Do you know for sure that they would need >to stop lessons?
There are some details of my discussion with them that I didn't post for confidentially reasons. The parents came right out and mentioned continuing the lessons, but doing them less frequently. The girl is a beginner, but she is extremely gung-ho. I've been a teacher for a long time, and I really think she has the potential to become a very fine clarinet player.
As I mentioned, I am very familiar with the companies the parents work for. One of them is in very serious financial trouble, and this is very well-known to the public. Jobs that pay well are scarce in my area. The family has other young children, and I can tell that they're scared. I've met both parents, and there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that they've been very honest with me.
I want to thank everyone who offered advice. You've given me some great suggestions, and I'm going to carefully consider everything that you've said.
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2008-11-16 13:02
Music Link http://www.musiclinkfoundation.org/ is an organization that is dedicated to helping provide private instruction at little or no cost to students who could otherwise not afford lessons. If they are active in your area this is a solution that you could exploit.
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2008-11-16 13:09
David,
Thanks for the reminder on Mr. Gigliotti's generosity. I studied with him for 2 years in the late 70's at Temple, and he did a number of nice things for many of his students.
I do think that there are options for reducing the fee, but make sure the kid is actually practicing and keen to learn before you reduce your fee. While times are tough and money tight, there is nothing harder than hearing about how the family is going on a great vacation and can't make your "Reduced fee" lesson the following week.
I would explore barter, bi-weekly lessons, a joint lesson with another student at the same level in the same circumstance.
I don't know how the IRS will ever be aware of a barter arrangement. For the most part, my teaching income is....shall we say....."rather invisible". Catch me if you can.....
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Author: pewd
Date: 2008-11-16 15:20
its not invisible now, your comment is on the internet for all to see...
that is illegal, and i can not condone cheating on your taxes. shame on you.
i have given out a few personal scholarships in the past. in one case, the student went on to much success. in another, the student has become quite lazy, both in music and in non musical endeavors. after reflecting upon this for several years, i've concluded that this seems to teach them that they can get something for nothing, without earning it.
in one case, i gave out free lessons when both parents lost their jobs. now that they're working again, they still expect free lessons. its become an expectation for them - a difficult situation for me to reverse. i don't want to cause the student to suffer for her parent's follies.
so i think in the future, if an economically challenged student wants lessons bad enough, they can earn lessons: clean my studio, wash my car, rake leaves, pull weeds in the garden, etc. i know one teacher who occassionally trades lessons for weeding her garden, this seems to work out well for her in most cases.
these cases are rare - in most cases, when a student can't (or won't) pay for lessons, we part company. i only make exceptions for exceptional talent and work habits.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Bartmann
Date: 2008-11-17 18:08
For about 12 years I had been religious about taking clarinet lessons: every week for one hour. But then after I got my MBA work became much more important. Right now in my life I'm in wealth generating mode. So even after the inertia of having lessons for almost 12 years, I couldn't put in the time needed to improve. So my lessons were kind of wasteful because I didn't have the time to put into my playing. But even though I was making good money, lessons represented a variable expense that could be cut. If they had a direct impact on my earnings then I would have continued, but as an amateur they really were an indulgence.
I had become a cash cow for my teacher but after my MBA studies were finished and I had a new job, I used that as the final reason for my stopping lessons. Sometimes you need an external event to provide stimulus to an internal feeling.
When I retire to Europe, then I can see restarting lessons as a way to stay involved and occupied.
Reprise,
You have a good point. Perhaps the student really doesn't wish to continue and is using the economy as an excuse.
Bartmann
Post Edited (2008-11-17 21:18)
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2008-11-18 08:15
To me, whether the pupil wants to continue will be pretty obvious. If she is dying to get her clarinet out every chance she gets or at least putting in regular, useful practice, keen to get into whatever bands are going and so on, then she's keen. If it is quite clear that she doesn't work between lessons or only does the bear minimum when cajoled by her parents, then perhaps she is not worth making special concessions for.
As a fairly late starter who was very determined to get as far as I could in clarinet and music in general, I would have given my unswerving loyalty and devotion to anyone who had seen that in me and helped me along but we have to accept that not everyone has clarinet as their top priority.
On the other hand, from the teacher's point of view, one has a living to earn and if one is not even getting the money out of it most teachers cannot afford to give their time for nothing to an under-commited pupil when they could be earning money from someone else.
Also, to go to back to the OP, you say that the parents fear layoffs. Well, it hasn't happened yet so may be they should be politely reminded that your livelihood depends on your giving lessons at a certain fee - have they started asking the supermarket for a special discount or the filling station? Possibly the situation says more about the parents than the pupil and, if you said "This fee or no lessons", the pupil's reaction might be another gauge of her interest. If they decided to abandon lessons altogether, what would be the likelihood that you could get another pupil?
Vanessa.
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Author: johnniegoldfish
Date: 2008-11-18 13:17
Build value, not deals.
Of course, it is honorable to help the truly needy,
However,
GM offers employee discounts to everyone
While
Toyota builds a better product.
Music is no different.
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Author: OldClarinetGuy
Date: 2008-11-19 00:16
I am not sure what johniegoldfish means in that post.
If I had no one to fill the slot I have continued to teach the student at whatever they felt they could afford
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Author: johnniegoldfish
Date: 2008-11-19 18:41
Hi Old Clarinet Guy,
To better explain, the thread leaves some variables unknown such as does the girl still want to play.
My reply was meant to convey the thought that whatever we do, we can still do it better. GM has not made better cars, however they are offering incredible discounts and now they are close to bankruptcy. Toyota has strived for excellence and Lexus even more so.
The point you may ask is how does this pertain to this thread.
We are all sales people and all a good salesperson does is build value. Make your lessons more valuable, give more than they expect and you may not have any open time slots.
When times get tough the "rich" may forego getting a new yacht, but they do not trifle over personal wants and desires.
Many people cry all the way to the bank and they tell you how rough they have it right before they make their deposit.
When zippo introduced the cigarette lighter, they put it for sale at about 29 cents and it did not sell. A year later they more than quadrupled the price and until BIC came along they got very rich.
Lower your fee if you think it is a good thing to do, but if you do it for little johnny, you are going to have to do it for big John or he will feel cheated and leave for greener pastures.
Build value, excellence succeeds.
All the best even if I don't splain it well.
Johnnie, personally i like the way i said it the first time better
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-11-19 19:24
My fee is what it is. Non negotiable whether in good financial times or bad.
Parents can always shop around for someone who charges less.
I've had some who have tried steacher who charges a bit less, but they almost always return. saying something to the effect of "you get what you pay for."
If parents are SERIOUS about private lessons for their child, they can find a way to cut other expenses to afford them...GBK
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Author: Danny Boy
Date: 2008-11-19 19:26
Do you teach for any organisations that provide subsidised tuition? I do, and have in the past suggested that private students in financial difficulty have applied to start having their lessons with me but through my 'day job'. They end up getting the same tuition, admittedly in a different geographical location, and the cost is significantly reduced. However, it is important that the organisation doing the subsidising also gets something out of it - I insist that the student starts to attend an ensemble organised by said organisation, they're usually grateful to have a keen student involved. I end up marginally worse off, but only marginally.
As for the ridiculous comments about private teaching being invisible to those collecting taxes - you only need to get caught once for it to all more than cancel itself out. I only have experience of the UK's HMRC, but I hear the IRS are even scarier.
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Author: Danny Boy
Date: 2008-11-19 19:32
GBK said:
"If parents are SERIOUS about private lessons for their child, they can find a way to cut other expenses to afford them."
That surprises me GBK - that's a statement that generalises greatly and assumes much. I have a student whose music is the only effective treatment he and his parents have found for a serious neurological condition, they sacrifice all sorts of other things so that he can continue the lessons (which are done at reduced price in the first place for another reason that I need not go into here). They're extremely serious about it, yet have had to ask for payment plans in the past and make payments late.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-11-19 20:19
Everyone's teaching circumstances are different, whether they be by type of student, a student's level of proficiency, parent's financial ability to pay and geographic location.
I teach in an affluent area where home prices start at a $1,000,000 and range up to the obscene. Some of these houses are second residences, summer homes, etc... Thus, my students are all coming from families where money (even in these times) does not seem to be an issue.
I've given away more than my share of free reeds, method books and supplies as good will towards motivated students.
But, when parents are routinely paying for weekly swimming lessons, tennis lessons, art lessons, etc... I don't feel that my fee should be compromised.
...GBK
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Author: malanr
Date: 2008-11-20 20:03
When I was in middle school, my father was activated for Desert Storm. I had no money for lessons and even though I was young, I was working at our Office Supply store to keep the doors open for that year.
My band teacher, Mr. Pete Bottomley offered to give me lessons for solo and ensemble for free. I will be starting lessons with him after the holiday for the first time in 15 years.
I also have been influenced by another instructor that teaches for free. All students all levels. In the martial arts, this is something we call giving back to the "arts".
It is this theory that I employ when I see someone that wants to take lessons but cannot afford them.
If I didn't NEED to make money teaching the Martial Arts or clarinet Lessons, I would not hesitate to do it for free. It is for the satisfaction of making the impression upon someone that I teach.
I don't always teach for free, but when I do, I make sure that the person is not taking advantage of me, and I make a deal with them; I say to them "In the future you will have students, and as long as you are studying with me for free, you will teach them for free. If you want to charge them, I will charge you."
It is my feelings that money ruins the good of everything, but is that evil necessity. Many people have learned good life skills from people that "gave" them the lessons and didn't ask for money in return. This also gives the receiver a responsibility to help at least one person out.
Music should given as if from the heart and not bought.
I don't mean to tell people to stop charging for lessons, but at this time of "recession" don't let the music die because of money.
Just another muscian
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Author: clariniano
Date: 2008-12-14 07:02
I myself have been in that situation, and have had students who were in that situation. I have a couple of brothers whose dad lost his job a couple of months ago, who've made excellent progress with their music studies (they are both piano students) who are currently helping me with various tasks, such as computer work, posting/delivering flyers, doing mailings, assisting with concerts (eg: page turner, ticket sales).
I know when my parents didn't want to pay for my lessons when I was in high school I would have been happy to work for them!
That being said, I've also known families who say they don't have money for for lessons or a good instrument, yet spend lots of money on expensive electronics, trips, and cars when they don't need them. It's about priorities.
Meri
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2008-12-14 18:42
To the ends of their lives, my mother and her sister fondly recalled a music teacher in then-rural Harrah, Oklahoma, in the midst of the dustbowl and the Great Depression, who gave those girls music lessons in return for produce, eggs and chicken from their parents' farm. That barter deal worked out well for everyone. The farm family had no money, but because my Czech grandfather had refused to adopt "modern" farming techniques, his farm hadn't turned to a dustbowl and he grew prize-winning crops. The teacher needed the food because so many of her students had had to quit.
Mom's sister went on to become a professional musician (opera singer, then career counsellor at Juilliard, then Executive Secretary of the Metropolitan Opera's National Council). Mom, after singing on the radio and teaching high school music for a few years, went on to use her music training as an Occupational Therapist at an Army hospital during World War II. They both stayed in touch with that beloved teacher from their childhood until she died of old age.
Times have changed, I guess. Though the last barter deal I heard rumors about involved a farm product of sorts, it grew under fluorescent lights in a basement. I'm pretty sure the IRS never got so such as a stray seed out of that deal.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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