 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: MondeLuna
Date: 2008-11-11 01:05
Has anyone else had trouble ordering Vandoren Flowpacks? Has Vandoren decdided they will nolonger sell them?
Thanks!
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-11-11 01:29
MondeLuna wrote:
> Has
> Vandoren decdided they will no longer sell them?
One can only hope ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif) ...GBK
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Author: MondeLuna
Date: 2008-11-11 01:33
Ha ha, I knew someone would be overjoyed! In a way it is good, now I am experimenting with new reeds.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-11-11 09:55
have they outdone themselves to make a package that wastes even more plastic?
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Author: William
Date: 2008-11-11 15:07
Flowpacks are the Selmer Mark VII's of the reed industry. Vandoran, like Selmer, took their premire product and tried to make it better. And like the Selmer "improved" Mark VI, Vandoran's improved reed packaging is proving to be a flop with the performering artists. First, it was the "improved" tip profile, now the "improved" packaging. The only thing left for Vandoran to do is to switch to an "improved" reed material such as plywood. Hey VD CEO's, are you listening.................??
I learned to deal with the improved tip profile, but this new flowpackaging just seems to suck all the heart out of the reed before it arrives at my music store. They just play "mushy" according to our local UW of WI clarinet professor, Dr. Linda Bartley. I have yet to find one that plays as good as even an average pre flowpack reed, the kind I used to think were "good for practice" but not quite "performance'. Now, I feel like I am being forced to perform on nothing but "practice" quality reeds--and I don't like it.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-11-11 15:17
William wrote:
> Flowpacks are the Selmer Mark VII's of the reed industry.
> Vandoran, like Selmer, took their premire product and tried to
> make it better.
I think it's more like the 1985 "New Coke" fiasco, which was a disaster on so many levels...GBK
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-11-11 16:11
William wrote:
<<They just play "mushy" according to our local UW of WI clarinet professor, Dr. Linda Bartley.>>
Exactly. That's my problem with them, too. It's enough to make me a "self-proclaimed amateur Rico Artist."
Using a green reed is like eating a green banana. Therefore, I think this calls for a song!
I'm a blue box Vandoren
and I'm here to say,
you need to open your flowpacks
and throw them away.
When they are flecked with brown
and have a golden hue,
Vandorens work the best
and last the longest, too.
V12, Traditional, and Java,
and Rue Lepic are all just fine,
but unless you want to squeak them,
you must be careful how you treat them.
You can keep some in a closet,
if you want to save a box of them for later,
But you must never put Vandorens
in the refrigerator.
(OK, so the song still needs a little work...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFDOI24RRAE
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-11-11 16:17
mrn wrote:
> Therefore, I
> think this calls for a song!
I think it's time to resurrect my Gonzalez poem:
Finding the best reed is one costly chore,
Order on-line, have them sent to your door.
Easy response, good color and nice tone,
Is what we all want when the clarinet is blown.
So what is the factor that makes one the best?
A reed that stands out, oh so far from the rest.
I like the cane that is from Argentina,
It doesn't take thought, not even a subpoena.
Our knife can be such a remarkable tool.
It adjusts a bad reed and makes it a jewel.
Many major brands use Argentinean cane.
Thin fibers, bad cutting, is why I complain.
And don't change your tip shape for reasons unknown,
Or harvest the cane till abundantly grown
For fixing V-12's, it takes more than a knife.
All your scraping and shaping won't bring those to life.
You must start with good cane - a simple fact that is known.
Right now, it all comes from the South Temperate Zone.
I'll put down my pen, for I'm out of ideas.
Mr. Gonzalez and I are going out for tortillas.
...GBK
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2008-11-11 16:50
Gonzales reeds are the most mushy, unresponsive, short lasting reeds I have ever tried. And this is after breaking them in the way GBK and others suggest.
To each their own. I still have not found anything that beats a really great Vandoren reed and I don't really care that you only get one or 2 of those per box.
And all this talk about the flow packaging is silly. Bye a box. Take them out of the packaging and let them sit in the box for a few weeks and they behave just as they always did.
Rico Grand Concert's are a close second on my list but they are not durable and don't take well to adjustment.
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Author: William
Date: 2008-11-11 17:23
"great Vandoren" defintion, OXYMORON (especially in flowpacks)
Iceman, what "brands" do you like?? I've recently had good results with some Rico Reserves #3.5.
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2008-11-11 17:54
I too have found them to be a little "mushy" when first played out of the wrapper. At first I attributed it to similar results when my other reeds became too moist. They seemed similarly "slow" like reeds exposed to too much humidity.
I came to realize that after letting the reed adjust for a day to the humidity of my own particular environment, the reed returned to it's recognizable state - quicker and more lively.
From that point on, if sealed and adjusted properly, the reeds were more consistent, reliable, and longer lasting - all things I've attributed to the stable environment that they were shipped in to the US .
Whether or not the wrappers are biodegradable is a good question. I assume that they are. Otherwise Vandoren should use material that is.
Also, if Vandoren believes that there is a market for non-flowpack reeds, I would think that they would make them available. It would only make sense from a business standpoint. And we all know that Vandoren is now, and has been for a long time, king of the world when it comes to mass-produced reeds and mouthpieces.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
Post Edited (2008-11-11 18:13)
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2008-11-11 22:24
Not recyclable either?
If not biodegradable, everyone, including myself should send emails to them. Vote early and often as they say here in Chicago.
Gregory Smith
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-11-11 22:30
From the Vandoren website:
The films:
The Flow-Pack is a recoverable packaging in the form of energy recovery (the film has
a high calorific ratio in incineration). The choice of our supplier was determined not only by their ability meet our technical demands linked to Flow Pack performance in protecting the reed, but also with a regard for ecological considerations (the supplier of the film is an ISO 14001 certified company concerned with environmental management). Our cellophane on the outside of the box is of a very common type made from polypropylene. Moreover, we are currently pursuing research on the use of biodegradable or compostable film. We should point out here that the thickness of the film we use effectively limits waste volume in comparison with other packaging solutions like airtight boxes, tubs or other procedures for maintaining hygrometry.
...GBK
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-11-11 22:56
I wonder if the original blue box will come back when the cane stocks are better? THankfully I'm on my last two original blue boxes but I'm not looking forward to having to try new brands. Hopefully I won't need to, I'll just age the flow pack ones myself.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: marshall
Date: 2008-11-12 02:15
The flow pack wrappers ARE biodegradable. I think there's an environmentally conscious community within the clarinet community that's big enough that Vandoren wouldn't dare make something with more packaging that wasn't.
Also...if you take them out of the wrappers and let them sit for a few days, they will get used to your climate and (hopefully) break in more consistently.
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Author: Geirskogul
Date: 2008-11-12 02:38
They say things like "the film has
a high calorific ratio in incineration" (if burned it would produce a high amount of heat) and "we are currently PURSUING research on the use of biodegradable or compostable film;" IE: not CURRENTLY biodegradable, just burns well. Looks like mettalized plastic to me.
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-11-12 03:02
I don't care what they say, I still think the Flowpack is the worst idea they have ever had and i hope they do away with it, or at least give us the option of non-flowpack reeds. If the plastic is biodegradeable, how long does it fill the landfill for before it is completely gone?
That plus the poor cane lead me to search for new reeds several months back. I almost exclusively use Zonda now, but may look into Gonzalez FOF as they are a little cheaper and the packaging is easier to handle than Zonda.
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
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Author: pewd
Date: 2008-11-12 04:19
fwiw, my students don' t like them; they prefer the reeds in the older boxes. maybe thats just because those reeds are aged more. hard to tell. but my more proficient students definately prefer the older boxes when we can find them.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-11-12 06:16
I don't have any problem with the new Vandoren reeds. They plays pretty much the same asthey always have. From my experience they are less consistent than let's say Gonzalez (not a bad thing IMO). BTW I don't break in or adjust reeds. But I think the bigger box and extra plastic wrap are s**t!
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2008-11-12 11:16
-- "the supplier of the film is an ISO 14001 certified company concerned with environmental management: "--
You have to be VERY careful in what you read into ISO accreditation.
I used to contribute to a forum about TEFL (teaching english as a foreign language) and lots of TEFL training businesses were springing up claiming all sorts of accreditations. This was extremely important since most reputable schools insisted on recognised TEFL qualifications.
Some claimed in big letters: ISO 9001 accredited! Of course they didn't bother explaining that this referred to their organisation, NOT their knowledge or success in actually training, or that it had no bearing whatsoever on the validity of the qualification!
The ISO 14001 may just mean that the company does its best to limit and reduce waste, dispose of it correctly, reduce energy consumption etc. I think the expression 'concerned with env. management' may not be a good translation. It should be 'has an env. management policy in place'.
Steve
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-11-12 12:36
stevensfo wrote:
> The ISO 14001 may just mean that the company does its best to
> limit and reduce waste, dispose of it correctly, reduce energy
> consumption etc.
Not even that ...
...
"ISO 14001:2004 gives the generic requirements for an environmental management system. The underlying philosophy is that whatever the organization's activity, the requirements of an effective EMS are the same.
...
Because ISO 14001:2004 does not lay down levels of environmental performance, the standard can to be implemented by a wide variety of organizations, whatever their current level of environmental maturity.
...
"
http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/management_standards/iso_9000_iso_14000/iso_14000_essentials.htm
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Author: beejay
Date: 2008-11-12 13:43
I'm using flowpack 56 rue Lepics and find them very consistent. I wonder whether the introduction of flowpacks has anything to do with the increasing incidence of piracy in Asia. opf which Vandoren is one of many corporate victims. Not only do we have CSOs but we have the reeds to play on them.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-11-12 13:51
Mark Charette wrote:
>stevensfo wrote:
>> The ISO 14001 may just mean that the company does its best to
>> limit and reduce waste, dispose of it correctly, reduce energy
>> consumption etc.
> Not even that ...
Kind of like ISO 9000, which doesn't mean you make a quality product--it basically means that whatever it is you do, you have written rules/procedures for doing it.
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Author: 78s2CD
Date: 2008-11-12 14:37
To the original question - availabiliy - most of the reeds listed on wwbw.com are advertised to be in "New flowpack packaging," and to be in stock. Whether you love them or hate them, it would be surprising if they weren't available.
Jim
James C. Lockwood
Rio Rico AZ
"I play a little clarinet"
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-11-12 15:06
> Kind of like ISO 9000, which doesn't mean you make a quality product--it
> basically means that whatever it is you do, you have written
> rules/procedures for doing it.
Or, as a friend of mine puts it - "ISO9000 describes the process of hammering a screw into a wall."
--
Ben
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Author: MondeLuna
Date: 2008-11-24 17:45
78s2CD it's not the packaging that I was so thrilled with as much as the quantity. It's just a little cheaper to by the box of 30 compared to10. And that is what I'm having a hard time finding.
All and all I have enjoyed the conversations, especially the songs/poems.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2008-11-24 20:05
bring back the old purple plastic boxes....
i'm still saving 2 of them for a rainy day...
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-11-24 22:01
Paul use the opportunity and try some other brands. There are lot of brands out there that are cheaper,with lot less packing and are actually much better.
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