 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Cindyr
Date: 2008-11-05 00:13
Hi Chris: I have a very similar set of JTL's, the fingering is exactly the same, and the workmanship, except my pair isn't silver, and I have the A and B versions. I have the mouthpieces, which are wooden. Barrel length on the A is 2 5/8" inches, and the B, 2 3/8" inches. Together, we have a complete set of these great antiques!
My pair have been restored, and the tone is great. If only I had the time to really learn how to play them!
I'm not really sure how old they are, but the person I bought them from said about 1880.
Best guess....high pitch, and you have a C, as the barrel is definitely shorter than on my B.
Cindy.
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2008-11-05 08:51
Hi Cindy
I must say when I was waiting for them I thought it would be many hours work before I could play it, but all the pads had sufficient seal to play really well.
It did come with a HR mouthpiece, but it needs a bit of sanitation attention before I put it anywhere near my mouth! I don't know enough about assessing the chamber size to see if it is a C mouthpiece, though.
So I just stuck my Bb mouthpiece on.
Technical question now - Unless there are other views, I assume it is a C instrument...
If I put my Bb mouthpiece on this C instrument and play open G, what will I see on my tuner if it is a low pitch instrument, or a high pitch.
If, still using my Bb mouthpiece, I get a tuner that can tune to high pitch (I think I have found free software on the web to do this) and play open G - what effect will the Bb mouthpiece (as opposed to a C mouthpiece) have on the tuner (ie plus or minus and by what amount)
Maybe this is another thread!
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-11-05 09:09
"If, still using my Bb mouthpiece, I get a tuner that can tune to high pitch (I think I have found free software on the web to do this) and play open G - what effect will the Bb mouthpiece (as opposed to a C mouthpiece) have on the tuner (ie plus or minus and by what amount)"
On current C clarinets, they are designed to use a Bb mouthpiece, but this may have not been made that way. However, the fact taht your Bb mouthpiece fits makes me think that it *may have* been made that way.
"If I put my Bb mouthpiece on this C instrument and play open G, what will I see on my tuner if it is a low pitch instrument, or a high pitch."
No way to know. Different example- If you use the "correct mouthpiece" and it is low (435-440) or high (444+), it would still register on the low or high side of the pitch you are aiming for. It will come out as a low or high G.
BTW, It really looks like a lovely instrument.
I am not an expert on period clarinets, but the fact this instrument has no rollers on the LH pinky keys makes me think that it is older than the 1890s.
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2008-11-05 12:43
I have a high pitch Bb JTL with the exact same style keywork. The quality of the wood and workmanship is indeed superb on these instruments. I'm glad cindyr posted the barrel dimensions of her clarinets this time (I believe she responded when I asked about mine on here before, but never replied with some barrel dims. for me), because mine is missing the barrel, and I had no good way to figure out what it needed to play correctly!
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2008-11-05 12:45
Beautiful thing, whatever it is. Thanks for the pictures!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-05 13:00
If it is HP, expect C (upper or lower register) to be either a very sharp C with the needle way over to the right of your tuner, or a flat C# but with the needle way over to the left.
But the quality of workmanship is still incredible nevertheless.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2008-11-05 13:15
Thanks
I will check when I get home and report back! I am getting the impression that using a Bb mouthpiece is not going to influence the sound hugely.
I was astonished when I got the instrument, not only that it played, but also how well preserved it was. The company marks seem as sharp now as when they must have been over 100 years ago. There is little or no free movement in the action, though I haven't stripped it yet to see how the rods sit on the keys.
I had bought this thinking it would be a wreck waiting to be rebuilt, but it looks used and authentic right now. I have to decide how much I want to polish the keys, what pads to put on, how much I take it back in time to shiny and polished, and how much I respect its passage over time and how that is recorded in how it looks now.
If there are restorers with a view it will be interesting to hear the pros and cons. Is it possible to over-restore and detract from its value and appeal and what are the common mistakes along those lines?
Chris
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2008-11-05 13:23
I have just checked my old Hawkes HP Bb tuning fork against the Korg OT-12 tuner and it shows as almost exactly 25 cents sharp to modern (A=440) pitch so difference that would apply to all notes of a HP instrument.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-05 13:33
I'd clean the keywork up (remove dust, grease and dirt) but not polish it all up to a bright shine. And install white leather pads (as it already has them) with white shellac.
Polish up all the screws (burnish the heads to a bright shine) and you could even temper the screws so they're all dark blue. Don't remove the flat springs unless you really have to.
Trim thin cork slices from wine corks for the keys as this looks much better than cork that has been saw-cut (put the wine cork in a short length of metal tube, push it all the way through so it emerges from the other end and then slice it as thick or thin as you like using the end of the tube as a guide for a sharp knife).
If you want to be authentic, glue the corks on with liquid shellac or stick amber shellac by heating the keys up to melt it, though it has the disadvantage of being hard and brittle once cooled (and may make the keywork noisy). Evo-Stik is better all round.
I just noticed the thumbrest on your JTL is exactly the same as the one fitted on my old Selmer basset horn - though your one hasn't been butchered by having a mild steel ring soldered to it!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2008-11-05 13:34
p.s. re my post above, I just played with the tuning range on my OT-12 and find that the HP Bb is virtually exactly "in-tune" at a setting of between A = 446/447 and its about 10 cents sharp at A=444 (so you just might be able to play it in the Berlin Phil!
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-11-05 18:53
Fine pics, Chris J, looks better than my old Thib. Got it cheap a long time ago. My lower joint is very sim. to yours, my UJ is diff. with an "overlap [over the A]" G#, and I have a 3rd trill key for Eb/Bb which doesn't appear on your pic, but presume you have one. As to markings, the 2 piece body [fine woods] has CH.Jerome above the A and a faint B and illegible between the 2 highest open holes. My bell appears to be a later add'n IMHO with lots of info, Legion Honnaurrie [sp?] in 'wings", , a wreath below , A 7 medals cluster, and stacked Jerome Thibouville Lamy, what appears to be an address, 68? Pixxxx and PARIS . The assembled length of my UJ and LJ [only] is 18 7/8" X 25.4 = 479.4 MM for your pitch info, believing mine is a Bb, about 435 cps, and dating about to 1890-1900, all help appreciated !! Much fun with opldies, rite? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2008-11-05 18:55
I downloaded tuner software from this site (auto tuner for windows - half way down the page)
With my Bb mouthpiece on, and the key set to C my clarinet makes the right sounds at A=452
So definitely high pitch!
Chris
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2008-11-05 20:17
Don, I have seen the keywork configuration you described on a few other old Albert JTL clarinets on the auction site (the bells indeed had all the crazy award dates, other info on them). I think yours must be a little newer? (still very old!) BTW, this keywork configuration indeed only has two upper joint trill keys. I've also seen a pic of one Albert JTL very similar to all of these that did have the roller pinky key setup as well.
Post Edited (2008-11-05 20:25)
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2008-11-05 20:47
Oh that engraving is sooo nice!!
I have a JTL Flugelhorn and JTL were famous for their brass instruments but had no idea they also made clarinets.
Steve
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2008-11-05 21:00
Don
I know you are aware of the thread below but worth pointing it out here as it adds to the information.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=15916&t=15918
modernicus as you mentioned, my instrument only has the two trill keys for the UJ. In fact when I was testing the instrument with the tuner using standard fingering all the notes were spot on, but for LH Thumb F. That came in on E fingering and the first trill key. Is that the same as yours?
Chris P - thanks for your thoughts. They will be really helpful when I come to work on it
And Norman - nice to hear from you! You serviced my Leblanc Opus a couple of years ago, I am only down the road from you!
Chris
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-11-05 21:04
TKS, Mod - I took another [better!] look-see on the pics, and my cl, AND my LJ is DIFF ! I don't have the pat C# and my B nat/F# banana key is on the other side, guess I just jumped to a [bad] conclusion of similarity. So, perhaps I have a somewhat older/simpler ?Albert type, with a newer bell. I always thot these joints were my oldest cl ! Quite confused , Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-05 21:12
The lower of the side keys is the F key and the upper is a trill key (A-B trill I think, although it will give other trills besides). And keep the F key open for F# if it needs it. On simple systems with rings (and small vents) for LH fingers 1 and 2, this does away with using the side F key to sharpen the F#.
In the upper register, Bb is best played as xox|ooo and C as oxo|ooo rather than using the keyed fingerings. The forked or cross fingerings have more tonal substance, though the keyed fingerings are better in the lower register as they'll be much clearer (F - xoo|Fooo, Eb - xx\o|ooo)
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2008-11-05 21:23
Chris P
Thanks so much! My family have gone to bed so I will have to wait till tomorrow to try those!....
I have tried to find a chart but failed miserably
I have a Rudall Carte simple system Bass Clarinet arriving tomorrow, too.....
So many toys to play with, not enough time!
Chris
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2008-11-05 21:24
As mentioned, the original barrel is missing on mine, unfortunately. I did mock something up crudely to try to play it some awhile back (now I at least know what length of barrel I need to find or have made). I was looking at the regular Albert fingering charts and I recall I couldn't figure out why either F or F# didn't work right. When I read "but for LH Thumb F. That came in on E fingering and the first trill key. Is that the same as yours?" I thought- Aha!-it may very well be the same!
Hey Don, that does sound older- but it doesn't have salt spoon pad cups, does it?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-05 21:27
German/Oehler system fingering charts will be the nearest for Albert/simple system clarinets - you'll find this useful (scroll down for Albert/Oehler system fingerings): http://www.wfg.woodwind.org/clarinet/
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2008-11-05 21:28)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2008-11-05 22:24
There is a chart for simple system clarinet in the Otto Langey Tutor (at least there is in the copy I have. These can often be found cheap in S/H book or Music shops (e.g. Oxfam).
Another very good source of fingering is also to be found in Anthony Baines book WW instruments and their history.
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2008-11-05 22:54
Norman
Thanks - excellent idea. There being no time like the present I have just bought this!....
1908 version should do nicely!....
Chris
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-11-06 20:34
Eureka [I've heard this is what Archimedes shouted, running bare in Athens, after floating in a bath tub {discovering gravity}, meaning, I Have Found It] , guys and gals. After looking at the EUCHMI and Shackleton, I remembered a Fav. Place about Alberts. So, after searching in it http://www.geocities.com/silverleafjb/albert.htm?20086 I found my Ch Jerome in an ad Circa 1920. Apparently a cheap, good?, Late Albert, its a Bb, checked pitch vs my Sel CT. So, there goes my oldie, except for the old bell !! Much fun, tho, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-11-06 21:18
skygardener wrote:
'If you use the "correct mouthpiece" and it is low (435-440) or high (444+), it would still register on the low or high side of the pitch you are aiming for. It will come out as a low or high G.'
I confess I'm not sure what skygardener meant. Whatever he meant to say, I think this statement might mislead.
International standard pitch is A=440. Many orchestras, particularly on the continent of Europe, play a little higher, around 442 or 444.
But "low pitch" and "high pitch", when engraved on instruments made many decades ago, do not refer to this rather small difference. They refer to a much larger pitch difference. "Low pitch" is at least roughly the same as modern standard pitch. "High pitch" is somewhere up in the 450s.
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Author: Cindyr
Date: 2008-11-06 21:34
Maybe we should start an Antique Clarinet Club, something a little different than, say, a car club? That way, we could all bring our antique "what have yous," have fun, and not bore those players whom aren't into the old stuff like we are!
Cindy.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-06 22:24
I'm sure there are loads of high quality HP (452Hz) woodwind (and brass) instruments languishing in attics, cupboards and antique shops just SCREAMING to be played in a group like they were in the old days.
It is such a waste that they aren't being played considering how much effort was put into making them, and they're more likely to be better built than some of the instruments being built today, so that's as good a reason to start up more HP bands and orchestras - just to show some appreciation to whoever built them.
I've seen several old wooden Boehm and 1867 system flutes that have no value except as an ornament listed on eBay and don't sell as no-one's interested in HP relics no matter how well they're made, likewise with old HP clarinets, oboes, bassoons and saxes that have no place in the 440Hz world, but there's plenty of them out there to be put to good use in a group of their own pitch.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Kalakos
Date: 2008-11-07 03:57
Just a couple of comments. That is a beautiful clarinet. I owned an A by the same maker and sold it.
Concerning an "antique clarinet" club, I'm all for it. I have been playing only the "Albert" system since about 1963. My main instrument is a Buffet C that was made about 1880. These clarinets play and sound beautifully!!
John Pappas
Kalakos
Kalakos Music
http://www.TAdelphia.com
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Author: spage
Date: 2008-11-07 16:34
Agree completely with Chris P and other comments about quality of so many. I too have a JTL that is also superbly made, slightly older I think than Chris J's, Charterhouse Street but not the Legion d'honneur and unstained rose/cocus(?)wood. Manufactured closer to home are another couple of superbly made instruments, Boosey & Co, which now have a place in Steve Sklar's pages - text starting "Both have metal-lined barrels".
So, count me (and a friend) in the "antique clarinet" club too. So far we've not summoned up courage to play duets on any of ours, but maybe soon.
Wonders what the chances of an occasional HP clarinet choir somewhere in the centre of England might be...
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2008-11-07 17:26
An HP clarinet choir - that would be a hoot!
Yesterday received my Rudall Carte Bass Clarinet, which seems to be HP Bb (though it is quite a bit shorter than my regular Bass Clari). It needs a bit of work but has lots of potential. Interesting keywork, as many of the touch pieces operate keys over tone holes via hinges, and not below the touch pieces (LH 1st and 3rd finger). It all came in its original leather round case.
I also received my 1908 Otto Langey today. It is in fantastic condition. I barely dare open it because it doesn't look like it has been opened before!
All the simple system fingerings are in it, but I still have no idea what I do with the manual double register keys.....
Chris
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-07 22:35
Ok, manual (or simple) double register keys works like this:
The touch directly above your thumb is for throat Bb and the upper register from B to Eb.
The touch over to the right is for upper register E and upwards (including the altissimo). You have to open them in turn instead of both being open together, so it may get a bit lively with your left thumb switching from one key to the other.
I'm surprised a semi-automatic speaker mechanism (as on oboes) wasn't ever employed at some time between the simple and fully automatic versions of the double register mechanism.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-08 10:16
That bass is incredible! Amazing condition, which just goes to show that it's such a waste that instruments of this quality are not being played - though it looks like you may have started a revolution. For anyone else with the passion, snap up HP instruments while they're still affordable, as they'll only increase in price with popularity.
There was an old Buffet simple system bass on eBay a while back with very similar keywork - I think the Buffet had the 'Improved C#' where you can play F#/C# with just the E/B key, and trilling the F/C key gives a perfect E-F# and B-C# trill. This bass has the plain F/C key, though your JTL has the 'Improved C#' (I think it may be covered in Otto Langley).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: spage
Date: 2008-11-08 14:50
'tis nice isn't it. Ours (a friend and I co-own one, in C, HP) has had a harder life I think. In the interests of comparative HP clarinet p*** there's a single photo of it here, essentially just comparing sizes against standard modern Bb soprano instruments.
Ours has a lower serial number. The mechanism is similar as regards the double register key, and the bottom joint, the significant difference appears to be L1. Chris J, I'd like to see the end of the bottom joint if possible.
Chris J has seen this photo. We are going to do a measuring and comparing of our respective instruments and, if board members are interested, one of us could maybe post our findings. If...?
(edited to change URL)
Post Edited (2008-11-09 10:36)
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2008-11-08 15:25
Hi spage
Always looking for an excuse to get the camera out! Which bit of the bottom joint would you like a close-up of?
I'll email some measurements later today
Chris
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-11-08 15:56
spage - are you saying that the bass in your picture is a bass in C?
I didn't know such a thing had ever existed. The occasional bass in A, sure, but not in C.
The Shackleton catalogue
http://www.music.ed.ac.uk/euchmi/ucis.html
shows that I was wrong...
Bass clarinet in C, 16-key Müller type. Buffet jeune, Paris, c 1837.
... but quite a rarity, even so.
Can anyone name a piece that is scored for bass clarinet in C?
[[[[
Technical note for webmaster - the url above shows correctly only when I omit the hash fragment. Putting #ublsf1l on the end stops it being shown as a link
]]]]
Post Edited (2008-11-08 16:00)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-08 16:01
Chiming in again - I just remembered the old simple system Buffet I saw on eBay ages back was in A.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: spage
Date: 2008-11-08 16:12
@Chris J - RHS bottom of bottom joint about the bottom quarter.
@NorbertTheParrot - we didn't believe it either when we first saw it, but yes, it is.
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2008-11-08 17:23
Spage, are these the views you are after? I am interested to know what differences you see compared to your C bass:
I hope not too many take you up on your challenge, Chris P. The JTL at the top of the thread cost me £35 and I want to snag a few more before the rush!...
Chris
Edited for typo
Post Edited (2008-11-08 17:24)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-08 17:34
If you find them in similar condition and can make good use of them, then they're well worth the bargain prices.
Though do look for quality makes of other HP woodwinds (or even brass!) as you can then share the experience with other players. It's an easy thing for string players - they can wind their strings up a bit to play at 452Hz.
I used to borrow an old Boosey&Co simple system C clarinet which was also HP (belonged to a friend's granddad), though I used a Bb mouthpiece and 'humoured' it down to 440Hz with a loose embouchure and special fingerings which was possible, but hard work.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Cindyr
Date: 2008-11-08 18:30
Ok, got some pictures of my pair of JTL's for our Antique Clarinet Club! These are an A and B pair.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-08 19:47
I've been tempted by Clinton systems, but put off by the 'HP' factor. Maybe this thread will kickstart a healthy interest in HP instruments - what is there th lose? Not a lot of money for a start!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-11-08 23:46
For those interesred in pursueing old cls and their history, I'd suggest looking into the Yahoo Group on "Early Clarinet", where the pro's discuss. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: spage
Date: 2008-11-09 10:40
I've just snaffled a couple of photos of the bottom joint of our bass from its co-owner. Apologies that I haven't scaled them in size, but they do show another interesting difference between the two instruments. These were taken just after the instrument arrived. It's been fettled up now and looks happier!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-09 11:01
That's the 'Patent C#' mechanism - although it's an unconventional way of fitting one due to using lever keys for the F/C key. You can do the E-F# and B-C# trills on this, and use the low E key on its own (without the F/C key) for F#/C#.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: spage
Date: 2008-11-09 14:43
It was, as you say, the 'unconventional way' of fitting/choice of key that caught our attention. It's a rather wonderful piece of mechanism! I think I'm slightly surprised that Chris J's (which I'm sure is younger than ours) hasn't got the 'Patent C#', but it has got that interesting L1 linkage on the top joint. The more one looks at clarinets the more interesting they get
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Author: Cindyr
Date: 2008-11-09 15:29
Thanks for sharing the pictures, everyone! Fortunately, some of these beauties of days long in the past have survived in relatively good condition. I've heard of bands that play on vintage only instruments, I think there's one in Connecticut.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-23 23:14
Just looking at the JTL Boehm photo - could they possibly get any more cork on the tenons?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2008-11-23 23:55
I noticed that, I thought maybe the tenons were metal sleeves or something, with the cork going to the edge?? Or maybe somebody did something to try to shore up wobbly joints?
Post Edited (2008-11-24 02:06)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-24 12:52
I think it's the latter - I've seen this done by less than competent repairers to make tenons feel tight. Doesn't work - best having the tenon sleeved.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2008-11-24 13:37
I guess I'm confused on the terminology. I'm hoping the female parts of the joints are already "sleeved" like Chris J's instrument. So, would the male part of the joint might need a "cap", like some clarinets come with metal tenon caps from the manufacturer? Or are you talking about an all wood repair to the male parts? Or do you think the female joints aren't sleeved and should be?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-24 15:12
The tenons may be worn, but they can be sleeved to make them fit the sockets. There are several ways of doing this - the most expensive being turning the tenons down and glueing on wooden rings which are turned down to the correct diameter, then the slot cut for the cork to fit into and maybe metal tenon caps fitted to hide the join on the ends.
Another way is to fit metal tenon rings at the shoulder and end of the tenon as has been done on spage's bass (though the end one is missing)http://neume.csi.cam.ac.uk/clarinets/rudall-carte-bass to prevent the joints wobbling.
Far simpler is to clean up and degrease the tenons, turn down and score the area with a scriber (as you would do prior to rendering a wall) where the tenon rings are located (at the shoulder and tip) and build them up with superglue and wood dust, then turn it down to fit the socket and cut the slot for the tenon cork.
I've done this on the middle tenon on several '60s B&H clarinets where the mid tenon slot has been cut too wide (they used the same width cutter for all the tenon slots) and the middle joint wobbles as there's less than 1mm of wood at the tenon shoulder.
You want between 2.5mm and 3mm of wood at the tenon shoulder and for it to be a snug fit in the socket without the tenon cork fitted - the tenon cork serves as a gasket to make the joint airtight and keep the joints together and the joint should be as wobble-free as possible before the tenon cork is even fitted.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2008-11-24 21:22
Understood- I was ignorant in my mental concept of how the joints really work.
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2008-12-10 13:59
Well, I received the Boehm JTL clarinet in the pics above in the mail yesterday. The barrel isn't original, that is why it looked so short and there is so much cork on the upper tenon. I did some measurements comparing distances between the centers of the top and bottom finger holes with my Yamaha CS, and I came up with the barrel needing to be around 60mm or so to be in proportion (the one on there is 42mm, from a LP Eb I believe), which fits with Cindyr's measurements of 2 3/8" for the barrel on her HP Bb Albert JTL, and would make a total of approx. 25 3/8" -approx. 645mmw/mouthpiece. This would put it in the correct neighborhood of HP Bb clarinets to the best of my knowledge. The bell length is within ~1mm of my Yamaha, but if the bell were proportionally shorter as well, I'm thinking it would be around 25"/635mm long total. Interestingly, the joints of my JTL Albert (marked "B") are significantly shorter the Boehm JTL, about as proportionally shorter as the JTL Boehm is compared to a modern Bb.
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The Clarinet Pages
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