 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-11-01 07:33
There is a certain logic in the myth that doublers should use open clarinet mouthpieces to match the "openness" of the saxophone mouthpieces they play, but I feel this does them a disservice. Dedicated clarinetists develop a fine tuned "voicing" for soprano clarinet. This produces a good focus to the sound. The doubler say who plays lots of baritone sax usually doesn't have this aural concept ingrained in him/her. What they generally need is a mouthpiece to help with focus.....EVEN MORE than the dedicated clarinetist. The dedicated clarinetist is the one that could probably handle a more open mouthpiece. The only thing that this matching(doubler with open mouthpiece) achieves is a blatty poor clarinet tone. To be fair, many times a huge, amorphous clarinet tone is fine for certain genres of music but if the doubler is called upon to play in a legit style he is really at a disadvantage with a wide open mouthpiece. I can't imagine picking up an oboe after playing baritone sax and having to "muscle" the oboe because the opening should be huge according to "Hoyle". The same applies to doubling on clarinet in my opinion.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-01 09:01
I often hear many sax players that double on clarinet (and use a large tip opening to match their saxes) and they often have a really weak, unsupported tone with a sound I can't quite describe, though 'slack-jawed' is the term I use. You'll know the sound when you hear it - a rather hollow sound (an most have their barrels shortened) as opposed to a 'symphonic' sound.
Although I'm mainly a bari sax player and play a 7*BB Lawton mouthpiece, I prefer a close facing clarinet mouthpiece and stronger reed in comparison to my saxes - I use Vandoren 2.5 reeds on saxes and between 3 and 3.5+ Vandorens on clarinet depending on the mouthpiece I'm using (A1, B46 or M15).
But I made the point when I started playing clarinet that I would have lesons from a clarinet specialist, and it just so happened that when I left school a new lecturer started working at my local college (and he was a clarinet specialist), so although I had been playing clarinet a few years (and listening to recordings of Berlin Phil which gave me a sound to aim for), I was pleasantly surprised that this clarinet teacher sounded, played and his posture was completely different to all the usual run-of-the-mill clarinet teachers in the area that I could have easily been taught by (and learnt very little from). So to have an inspiring teacher is the best thing for anyone.
"I can't imagine picking up an oboe after playing baritone sax and having to "muscle" the oboe because the opening should be huge according to "Hoyle". The same applies to doubling on clarinet in my opinion."
Do reed 3 book in "West Side Story" - you get to play the LOT in that!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-01 12:26
That's fine if you're a strictly classical sax player.
I have tried that approach playing on Selmer S80 C** mouthpieces, but they're way too unflexible for what I want. With my Lawtons, I can get any sound and volume I want which will work in any setting and don't feel restricted.
With close tip ebonite mouthpieces on sax I feel very restricted and can only do so much with them - they're just not what I'm used to playing on (although I used to play them until I went down the Dukoff D7 route in the '80s and then settled with Lawtons in the mid '90s as they're far more reliable, have a much fuller tone and are more flexible in terms of different sounds).
Some clarinet players that play wide tip openings (Vandoren 5JB etc.) have said 'I need a wide tip openong for doing pitch bends' - I can do pitch bends on an M15 just as easily, so it's not the tip opening that does this, it's more of what you do beyond the mouthpiece tip (lip slurs, bends, slides, glisses, etc. have previously been covered in great detail on here - search 'Rhapsody in Blue' and you'll find tons of info!).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2008-11-01 13:38
What do define as an open mouthpiece?
I play a Vandoren B40 with a #3 VD reed on it. Does that qualify as open?
There are many fine European classical players who use that m/p with great results. I like it because I can play with enough power for a Miller lead type of situation, but also play straight legit on it.
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Author: William
Date: 2008-11-01 14:57
Whatever instrument I am playing, I try to use an embouchure that is appropriate for mouthpiece of that instrument and how it is supposed to sound. I do not try to "match" mpcies but play a mouthpiece that is best for the instrument and genre of music--classical, rock, blues, swing, etc. And I would suspect that is what the best doublers do, the kind that work in recordings and sound tracks. I play a particular mouthpiece, not because it is "open" or "close", but because it works best for me and I like it. Mouthpiece choice--simple as that. I wish choice of reeds were as simple.....
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-01 16:11
In my opinion, the only real element assimilating saxes to clarinets is the single reed mouthpiece, although it is by no means the same.
Other than that similarity, saxes behave more like oboes in that they overblow an 8ve from the fundamentals, have two 8ve vents, the vowel sound changes in different parts of the registers and the low notes are stronger than the high notes (though sax players can definitely belt out high notes with a lot of power).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: donald
Date: 2008-11-01 22:20
The Texas article contains a number of errors- for instance stating that the thumb has only 3 positions (on clarinet) and failing to acknowledge the similarities (thumb wise). I feel sorry for players who feel that the clarinet embochure involves "prying the teeth apart with the mouthpiece".
That being said, much of what is written is good advice.
Btw, here in NZ the main reason students started on Clarinet before learning Saxophone was always that the clarinet was cheaper.
dn
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-11-02 05:37
Merlin, As you say the B40 is a very popular mouthpiece. My point is that it depends on how you sound on a mouthpiece. Some doublers might sound fine on this and others might require something more contained such as the 5RV or Fobes CF+ for example. It only takes a few minutes for a clarinetist specialist to give an assessment of a doubler. Is the sound an acceptable legit clarinet sound or not? An outside opinion is good in this situation.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Jacob S
Date: 2008-11-02 18:18
I have recently picked up bari sax, after playing clarinet for 5 years. Without much time to practice clarinet after school and having jazz band each morning, my practicing has been disproportionate... This week I'm picking up routine clarinet practice, again, and I'm realizing that I can't hold out notes as long. Instead my breathing is replaced by the core-powered and short lasting breathes I have to take with bari! I hope this is only temporary, as I start bringing back my clarinet chops. That is just my insight if it helps at all; I think of clarinet and saxophone as different instruments as well, and I haven't had any problems switching quickly between the two (reading music-wise).
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-11-02 19:28
> This week I'm picking up routine clarinet practice, again, and I'm realizing
> that I can't hold out notes as long. Instead my breathing is replaced by
> the core-powered and short lasting breathes I have to take with bari!
Hmm. Since I started bass clarinet, my soprano stamina has improved significantly. Maybe those ff tied whole notes over four to six bars in LOTM helped, finally. (only since then I fully realised the benefits of long notes)
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-02 20:00
What a lot of doublers I've seen tend to do is go it alone with a basic fingering chart which isn't the way to learn. In doing this, the most important aspect is missing - learning the correct embouchure, breath and pitch control for that instrument.
It would do everyone that plans on doubling a power of good to seek advice very early on from an established player or specialist on the instrument they choose to double on so the correct embouchure and breath control can be demonstrated and developed, as well as ditching the basic fingering chart as this only shows the basic notes but not how to approach certain intervals and arpeggios using alternative fingerings.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-11-04 01:40
I have three things to say, Steve Wilkerson, Eddie Daniels and Ken Peplowski, three players that "double" and have very nice clarinet tones. As a matter of fact, Ken Peplowski has had a great deal of influence on my sound after hearing him play on the radio many years ago. I think many doublers that were "classically trained" get very nice clarinet tones. It all depends on the player, their training and their priorities. ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
Listen to a little Mozart, live recording.
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2008-11-04 21:30
Ed you said;
"I have three things to say, Steve Wilkerson, Eddie Daniels and Ken Peplowski, three players that "double" and have very nice clarinet tones."
However Arnoldstang's contention was;
"Dedicated clarinetists develop a fine tuned "voicing" for soprano clarinet. This produces a good focus to the sound. The doubler say who plays lots of baritone sax usually doesn't have this aural concept ingrained in him/her. What they generally need is a mouthpiece to help with focus.....EVEN MORE than the dedicated clarinetist."
I think Arnoldstang is refering to the difficulties that primary inst sax players have when playing the Clarinet. He then goes on to relate this (incorrectly imho) primarily to mouthpiece tip selection.
I don't know Steve Wilkerson but Eddie Daniels and Ken Peplowski are very fine (primary inst)jazz Clarinet players who happen to be great on Sax also.
To further confuse the issue Eddie Daniels has in my opinion the "unfocussed" tone that Arnoldstang is talking about. Of course this sound is ideal for his choosen genre (jazz clar) but perhaps not great for playing Brahms or Mozart.
The "unfocussed" tone that sax players often get is more due to their Oral cavity positions than to choice of mpc tip opening. Generalizing here but the jazz cats often have loose emboucures, sloppy finger positions and poor tongue positions for articulation. Again nothing to do with them not buying a close lay mouthpiece.
Chris O.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-11-05 16:51
Chris, I do agree that voicing and embouchure are the major problems here. I guess my point is that the mouthpiece does make some difference so at least the doubler should get a mouthpiece that is appropriate for the task of making a good classical clarinet tone when it is called for.
Off topic, what is your background? I'm not familiar with the clarinet scene in Australia. Who are the famous teachers, players, makers, techs etc.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2008-11-06 00:02
Hello Arnoldstang,
It looks like we basically agree. A first for the BB. My only issue is whaen you say;
"the doubler should get a mouthpiece that is appropriate for the task of making a good classical clarinet tone when it is called for."
In the US and I suppose now Canada people seem to equate the concept of a "good classical" tone exclusively with closed lay mpc.
My feelings about this are a bit different.
Here is my response to this idea in a previous posting:
Paul, you said;
"However, if you are after a traditionally classical sound, you may want to reconsider the Premiere and others like it such as the Vandoren M13, M15, even M30 (still less open by spades than the B45)."
I think there is a certain cultural (and subjectively artistic) bias inherent in such a statement. In the USA the idea that becomes the accepted dogma is: a closed lay equates to a good “traditional” classical sound, the more open mouthpiece should be used for jazz.
In Europe and Australia many Classical players feel that this is not necessarily the case. Guy Deplus for many years played on a B45, Alessandro Cabonare plays on A B45, and I saw an article in which Mark Nuccio (New York Phil) stated be plays on a B45.
If these players are not getting a “traditional classical” sound then who is?
I think we should question the idea that what works for us as individuals is good for someone else.
For the record I play on Vandoren B45 series 13, B40 series 13 and M13 series 13. Each requires a change in reed selection. No one else seems to notice what mouthpiece I am on.
Chris.
Slight modification to the above statements. Cabonare in a recent interview said he was playing on a modified (tip rail was thinned) B40. I am mostly using the B40 series 13 as well as a Viotto.
My backround is one of extremes. I teach in a music school and a selective entry school. Some of the students are extremely good. I teach two days at a normal high school also. This has the usual spread of commitment/abilities.
I do a lot of freelance playing again going from playing for international artists-serious orchesral to semi pro shows (much more fun and drinking).
There are lots of great players in Aus. Not much of a recording scene so prob not well known. I would like to answer this more substantially but I have to go.
Chris
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-11-06 03:05
Phurster said, "I think there is a certain cultural (and subjectively artistic) bias inherent in such a statement. In the USA the idea that becomes the accepted dogma is: a closed lay equates to a good “traditional” classical sound, the more open mouthpiece should be used for jazz.
That might be correct of many players and teachers but in the USA there are many, many different opinions. I know many classicial players that use medium or medium opened facings, including myself. I didn’t disagree with what many have said above. I think it depends on the player and their physical attributes. I mentioned the three players I did because they have good sounds. Everyone may not agree with their sound but at least they are decent and they all play sax. Yes, it probably is more difficult for someone that plays clarinet as a secondary instrument, in comparison to one that plays clarinet more often. But I still think it depends on the player. I think for some players that play mostly jazz, having to change styles, no less tone quality, when trying to play in a more classical tone style is probably very difficult because they don't do it enough, and the facing of their mouthpiece must play a large part in their playing. The only doubling I do is on bass clarinet so I don't have that personal experience but I still think many classical players in the USA play medium opened mouthpieces, but probably not very opened ones. ESP
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2008-11-06 05:58
Ed,
I'm glad to hear there are a variety of views. Reading the BB leads to the assumption that everyone plays R13s on a close lay mpc and loves Ricardo.
Congratultions on your new president. The speeches of both contenders at the conclusion were moving and inspiring.
Chris.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-11-08 02:32
Hi Chris, thanks for the support on our new president, I think he will do well, I certianly hope so. Ricardo plays on a Backun, I'm not sure of the facing he uses now but I don't believe it is one of the close facings, I believe it is more opened. Take care, ESP
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