 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2008-11-01 23:00
I know there are several rants on "Clarinet shaped objects" but honestly, these cheap, made in china clarinets are soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo terrible! i ran into two kids who had cheap "sonatina" clarinets that were horribly flat and the kids were frustrated at these two kids because they were disrupting the group. I threw a mouthpiece at the sonatina and still no correction in intonation. i bet none of these manufacturers use any quality control measures. as a result, the group suffers and the kid's ego takes a dive.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-11-01 23:04
...especially when you think that a refurbished instrument of a reputable brand wouldn't cost more...sigh.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-02 00:04
"as a result, the group suffers and the kid's ego takes a dive."
Blame the parents.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-11-02 00:31
With the unprecedented recent influx of low priced, cheaply made instruments, this is the reason that (elementary) band directors and music teachers must now be proactive in contacting parents of students entering the instrumental program and warning them of the price vs value aspect of purchasing inferior imported instruments.
...GBK
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2008-11-02 01:00
Some parents, no matter how much you try to educate them, will buy these instruments because they are cheap. They really don't understand or want to.
jbutler
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Author: pewd
Date: 2008-11-02 02:23
what john said.
we send those letters out each fall - what and where to buy , and why.
but some parents ignore the letters, and we get some lamp material purchased from the usual big box retailers
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-11-02 03:15
Ha ha ha!
When I first saw the subject line, I thought somebody was badmouthing the Chicago Symphony's clarinet section!
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2008-11-02 05:12
lol.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2008-11-03 22:00
Please be very careful with what you say and especially with what you may hand out in print to parents about instruments. That's pretty much what buried Brook Mays recently, they had the gall to state in print that a number of Chinese instruments (all named) were junk and to be avoided, a judge said you can't do that here in Texas. That lawsuit by First Act might not have been the only thing that buried Brook but it sure was a tough blow to take.
This year we again tried to do our best to guide folks to quality instruments as best as we could, we are not and never will be 100% successful but it's worth the attempt. We never mention a brand by name (they change every few minutes anyway) nor do we ever mention a store by name but we do get our point across in a fairly quick and blunt (but polite) way. Getting through to the parents is not very easy.
The most difficult part of this is that since I am a music store/retailer, anything I say is looked at as just sour grapes or used car salesmanship because I'm just bad mouthing the lower priced (often viewed as the "reasonably" priced) competition. We need the teachers to back us up as much as possible.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-11-03 22:26
sbrodt54 wrote:
> We need the teachers to back us up as much as possible.
Not just the teachers. Real-world musicians (ie those who have to pay for their gear themselves) as well...
--
Ben
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2008-11-03 23:14
"In 2003 First Act Inc., a competitor that sells its instruments at mass market retailers, sued Brook Mays, and was awarded $20.7 million. According to First Act, Brook Mays discouraged patrons from buying First Act's very inexpensive instruments. This claim was based on a flyer that Brook Mays sent out to band directors and consumers.[3] In 2006, a judge awarded First Act the full amount of their claim. In July 2006, Brook Mays Music Group filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy, citing poor back-to-school and holiday sales.[4]"
--from wikipedia
i just found that article. wow, that is pretty shady. notifying consumers of POS products that is generally accepted to be true never hurt so much.
what if they put a disclaimer on the CSO that states:
this product does not comply with quality assurance according to the musicians union (or whatever). buy at own risk.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2008-11-03 23:52
Can anyone post an example of a helpful, artfully worded letter to parents or retail customers about the need to shop carefully for their children's instruments?
Post Edited (2008-11-04 00:22)
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Author: Margaret
Date: 2008-11-04 00:10
Why don't people just send out a list of suitable "recommended" clarinets? This would make things much easier, because the names are more or less stable, and would avoid lawsuits.
Margaret
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-11-04 00:28
Margaret wrote:
> Why don't people just send out a list of suitable "recommended"
> clarinets? This would make things much easier, because the
> names are more or less stable, and would avoid lawsuits.
No, having a public authority recommend a product is fraught with danger here in the US. A public teacher may or may not even be allowed to personally recommend a product; I know I'd think twice about doing that in this litigious society.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-11-04 00:54
In my most recent school, we sent out a GENERAL letter to the parents of prospective instrumental students reminding them of the price vs value aspect of purchasing inferior imported instruments.
No specific brands were either recommended or advised against...GBK
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Author: Margaret
Date: 2008-11-04 02:03
How unfortunate; I'm not sure that this is the case here in Canada, but I could be wrong.
Margaret
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-11-04 05:31
> No, having a public authority recommend a product is fraught with danger
> here in the US. A public teacher may or may not even be allowed to
> personally recommend a product; I know I'd think twice about doing that
> in this litigious society.
Uh, and at the same time there are teachers requiring their students play on a specific brand of mouthpiece and a specific brand of reed and often "recommend" a specific brand of clarinet...
--
Ben
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2008-11-04 08:31
How about if the teacher said that if the parent/pupil did not provide an instrument which the teacher considered appropriate, the price of the lessons would rise (say at least double)? Might make them stop and think.
Obviously it would have to be made clear that the teacher had no interest in the organisation supplying the instrument or the manufacturer (assuming that this were true) or a free choice of supplier (but not model of instrument) would have to be allowed.
Vanessa.
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Author: grenadilla428
Date: 2008-11-07 18:55
Weberfan -
Here is an almost direct paste from my website on the topic. Hope it helps you come up with a letter for your program.
As your child begins musical training, he or she may be expecting a shiny, brand new instrument. New instruments are fine, but don’t pass over a used one - it just may be a great instrument at a great price. Although there are many ways to get a good instrument (new or used), there are some definite ways NOT to get a good instrument. Here are some tips to help you make a careful, cost-effective decision:
✓ Ask your teachers for help.
Your band director or private teacher probably already has some preference of what instrument brand or model you should use, and they’re typically well-connected with instrument dealers in your area. They may also ask that you buy locally, so that you can actually see and play test the instrument. Your teacher might suggest renting an instrument, which may be a great fit for your family. As we all know, children are susceptible to changing their minds, and you don't want to be stuck with an instrument that no one plays. Rental plans are usually month-to-month rent-to-own programs with special options to buy. Details may vary from one store to another, so look up or ask for the phone number of a trusted instrument dealer in your area.
✓ Beware of bargain brands.
Heed the old proverb: you get what you pay for. Bargain brands may look great on the shelf, and may even appeal to your checkbook at first. But bargain brands don’t possess good tone or tuning. They also tend to break, and I’ve yet to meet a repairman willing to fix them. There are few things that can discourage a music student more than an instrument that frustrates the parents. You want your student to succeed, and your student wants the same thing - start them off on the right foot. If you’re still not quite sure what I mean, let me put it in the words of a band director colleague of mine: “Don’t buy your instrument from the same place you buy toilet paper.”
✓ Be an informed online bidder.
I have helped students purchase instruments from online auctions in the past with great success. I do NOT recommend parents to bid on instruments without the guidance of a teacher or musician. Remember that sellers are looking to make money. There are some great deals to be found, but there are also poorly-made instruments disguised as good deals. These fall under the “bargain brand” description... don’t be fooled by the initial cost! Ask your teacher to help you find a good instrument online, and make sure the seller answers lots of specific questions before you bid. These include age of the instrument; serial number; has it been inspected recently by a repairman; is the case in good condition; if it’s been in storage, where has it been kept; are there any cracks, chips, or dings anywhere on the instrument, etc. Know as much about the instrument as you can before deciding to buy.
As always, if you have any questions, ask someone! Be careful, and have fun shopping!
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2008-11-08 17:50
nice post weber. It helps buyers though when you recommend certain instruments to narrow their focus. with so many different brands on the market, and at a moderate/high ticket value, shoppers need direction.
"Uh, and at the same time there are teachers requiring their students play on a specific brand of mouthpiece and a specific brand of reed and often "recommend" a specific brand of clarinet..."
That's examining at the micro (individual) level. If a lawsuit stretched that far, there would be a VERY strong resistance. Companies NEVER want to put their products or reputation in bad light.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2008-11-08 22:59
First Act is now putting out a much better product. They also supply repair parts, free of charge, during the instruments warranty period. I recently had the opportunity to have to replace a pivot screw that was missing from a Borg (First Act) saxophone. I called the company and the sent me, in a timely fashion, a dozen pivot screws free of charge. I honestly believe the company is on the right track.
jbutler
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2008-11-09 02:55
I have been teaching at my current school for seven years. Every year I have sent out a letter discussing this issue, and offering my services to help select a quality instrument for a reasonable price, even to check out what the parent is looking at on various web sites, warning against big box store purchases. Not ONCE has a parent ever asked me for purchase advice. I have changed the letter every year, thinking I must be going about this the wrong way. Now, I view the letter more as a cya for myself than as instructional material - they don't care.
Sue
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-11-09 04:44
GBK,
Would it be a problem for public schools to send a letter home saying, "There are many poorly made instruments for sale today and it is always difficult to tell the difference between a good and poor instrument if the buyer has no experience with the instrument. If you find an instrument you would like to buy for your child, it is highly recommended to contact the instructor for confirmation of quality before buying an instrument."?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-11-09 05:00
I think that any GENERAL letter, similar to the ones previously posted, trying to guide parents into purchasing a better quality starter instrument is a good thing.
Parents have often called me for my input when they are considering whether to rent, or buy an instrument for their child. They have also asked me to evaluate instruments which have been in the family for a few generations to see if they are worth salvaging.
Unfortunately for some families, even with a teacher's input, the new, low priced bargain instruments are too tempting for parents to avoid purchasing.
...GBK
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2008-11-09 12:25
grenadilla428,
many thanks for posting your letter on instrument purchase. to clarify, i do not run a music program but was interested, given the thread topic, to see a concrete example of a letter of guidance to parents and students. yours is splendid and avoids the pitfalls Mark mentioned earlier.
i have heard a variety of scary stories from my teacher about the purchases his young students' parents have made over the years. he spends more time than he would like trying to undo what they have done.
thanks again for posting.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-11-09 13:42
Sometimes a reputable brand is not what you expect either. Recently I heard from an American repairer that a shipment a reputable brand of clarinets was awful, with all clarinet being extremely badly adjusted.
>> bargain brands don’t possess good tone or tuning. They also tend
>> to break, and I’ve yet to meet a repairman willing to fix them.
This is sometimes correct, but I have seen a few "bargain" brands that actually played ok and could last a while. I guess an honest repairer would explain why it's a bad idea to overhaul an instrument like this, but if a small service is all it takes to bring an unplayable instrument to working condition I don't see the problem. Recently a mom brought her son's cheap "bargain" brand clarinet, and for a small price it was possible to make the problematic key working again, plus add something that would prevent a manufacturing defect from creating a problem in the future.
I have a question please to those who know better about the law (although I guess it is not the same in every country). I'm occasionally asked by students or teachers what clarinets I recommend. I definitely mention specific companies and models. Usually I only say what companies and models I recommend, but if someone asks me about a model that I have experience with and I found that it is terrible I will say that (and would explain the details of the problems, if they are interested). Can I ever have any problems from this...?
It's especially important that I'm not a dealer of any instruments so there is no competition or anything like that. I think the advice of someone who is both a clarinetist and a repairer can help people (and of course I don't charge anything for it).
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-11-09 13:58
Nitai,
if someone asks you about your opinion, you're free to tell them what you think.
What could get you into trouble is when you unsolicitedly warn people from buying brand X.
--
Ben
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Author: clariniano
Date: 2008-11-11 16:28
Thanks GBK for your article on general recommendations, my boyfriend, who decided to teach high school music again in a private school after several years, needed something like this, as he's got a few students with the bargain instruments.
Although I usually get around the problem of recommending specific brands by recommending a few brands known to make quality instruments. (and I was recently pleasantly surprised at the Jupiters, though didn't like the adjustable thumbrest). I'll often assist in the purchase of an instrument, I use different retailers based on the needs of the student, sometimes I'll even look for a good deal among private sales (which I did a few times for students looking to upgrade their instrument but were somewhat on a budget)
Meri
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