 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kenabbott
Date: 2008-10-29 01:28
North of G5 I sound a little flat. Any quick fixes? I already have my short barrel on. Should I shave the barrel? Will switching mouthpieces make a difference?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2008-10-29 12:08
The "C" clarinet should use a smaller mouthpiece designed for the acoustical length of tube with which you are dealing. If you can get a "Bb" mouthpiece to fit..........don't even be tempted !!!!
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2008-10-29 12:50
Based on my recent experience with the C clarinet, it's a good idea to check with the manufacturer. They would know what works best.
Unless a repairman is familiar with the brand he's only guessing when working with the model. This could cost time and money for adjustments or new mouthpieces, or even unintended damage to the original design.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-10-29 13:06
>> Unless a repairman is familiar with the brand
>> he's only guessing when working with the model.
Sorry to get a bit off the original tpoic but.... what does that mean?!
Unless a very specific and unique clarinet needs very specific work (let's say, a period clarinet copy needing an extra tone hole), then a GOOD repairer can repair any clarinet reagrdless of model. If they are not familiar with the model, for example it has a mechanism different from most, then at worst case it will just take them longer. Just a matter of figuring it out. Can you be specific on what exactly they'll be guessing...?!
The same for a GOOD clarinetist who is used to Buffet but then tries let's say a Leblanc. Will they be "guessing"? No. It might feel a little different, sound a little different, but after a (short) while they will understand how it different and be able to control it. Same thing....
>> The "C" clarinet should use a smaller mouthpiece designed for
>> the acoustical length of tube with which you are dealing.
Maybe, but if it should it's definitely not because a C clarinet mouhtpiece plays sharper, since mine plays considerably flatter than my Bb mouthpiece.
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2008-10-29 16:08
The problem is easily remedied with a barrel that has correct dimensions, both length and bore. Guy Chadash made me a barrel (so did Robert Scott before I knew Chadash) that solves this problem - that is if the mouthpiece has a bore size that makes this possible. Most do.
Having a mouthpiece that works with the Bb, A, & C clarinets is essential for switching from one to the other clarinet when playing orchestral or chamber music repertoire.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2008-10-29 17:04
(Disclaimer - I sell the Forte' C clarinet)
For some people, like myself, my regular Bb mouthpiece - although it fits the "C", is not the optimal mouthpiece for this instrument and took some searching through the mouthpiece drawer and a little harder reed, and later some help from Ben Redwine, to get optimum performance. Many "C" clarinets need to be completely warmed up before reaching the best intonation and require spending some time and effort to get to know the intricacies of your particular instrument including which alternate fingerings will give the best intonation expecially in the altissimo register. Most "good" C clarinets will play like a little Bb instrument if you get to know them well enough and spend the time and effort to get the right barrel and mouthpiece combination for your instrument. These latter two elements "seem" to have a greater effect on the "C" than on the Bb instrument IMHO.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2008-10-29 17:29
All due respect, but I think this comment is misleading: <<The "C" clarinet should use a smaller mouthpiece designed for the acoustical length of tube with which you are dealing.>>
A mouthpiece for a C clarinet should match the diameter of the bore of the instrument. All modern C clarinets are designed to use a Bb/A clarinet mouthpiece.
I have seen Kohlert C clarinets, manufactured decades ago, that had a smaller bore and used a smaller bore mouthpiece. I don't believe that anything like that is manufactured anymore, at least in the French style clarinet world that I am familiar with.
Greg is absolutely right in his comment.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-10-29 17:36
Although he may have been discretely touting his mouthpieces, the late Ralph Morgan would adamantly affirm that a specific C clarinet mouthpiece was essential, due to the smaller interior volume of the chamber.
True? Not true?
...GBK
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2008-10-29 17:50
GBK: I can't answer your true/untrue conundrum; all I can say is that until I acquired my Ralph Morgan RM-06 Bb clarinet mouthpiece a few years ago, I always had C clarinet intonation issues similar to those cited by kenabbott. Almost magically they all went away with the Morgan mouthpiece, even though it is not a dedicated C clarinet one. (Buffet R13 with stock barrel)
I agree with Greg Smith that it is essential to find a mouthpiece that works well with A, Bb and C clarinets. Might take some experimentation, but it's quite doable. My experience is that Chedville-type mouthpieces with their extra-large chambers, do not work well with the C clarinet -- bore mismatch is just too great.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-29 18:21
How about making a removeable metal sleeve to convert the bore of a Bb mouthpiece so it can be used on a C clarinet?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2008-10-29 18:35
The C clarinet - if needed in the situations that I describe - will play in tune with the correct barrel. No need to purchase a new mouthpiece. (Are you honestly going to switch to a C clarinet with a different mouthpiece and reed and play at the same standard of performance?)
I too have a Morgan "C" mouthpiece and it plays fine with the older C barrel that came with my 16 yr old Buffet R13 C clarinet. But if I don't play a Morgan ( I play my own) what makes the most sense?
Gregory Smith
PS. The Chedeville type mouthpieces with the larger chambers or deeper "swoops" to the baffle can be accomodated with the right barrel to make up for the extra volume of air in the chamber.
Post Edited (2008-10-29 18:37)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2008-10-29 20:52
I think "generational" considerations play a part in the disparity of these answers.
My experience is VERY dated, perhaps 20 years or more. And I am familiar with the issue in regard to the German system Wurlitzer clarinets. Since I have experienced other intonation mismatches of similar ilk, I was merely extrapolating from my haphazard experiences.
Profuse apologies offered.
I would defer then to Greg Smith on this issue, but it does take someone with quite a bit of savy to know what is going on with the equipment and all the various combinations.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-10-29 20:56
> How about making a removeable metal sleeve to convert the bore of a Bb
> mouthpiece so it can be used on a C clarinet?
Incidentally, the bore of my C clarinet 100% matches the bore of my Bb (.579"). So, no different mouthpiece needed.
As everywhere, not every mouthpiece is happy with every clarinet and every reed. There are better and less suited combinations.
--
Ben
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Author: Geirskogul
Date: 2008-10-30 05:00
I read somehwhere of someone having luck with the "Goldentone 3" mouthpiece working well with C clarinets. I have no idea myself but thought I would throw those two cents in. Personally, I hate the mouthpiece, but you never know.
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-10-30 08:28
Greg Smith wrote: Are you honestly going to switch to a C clarinet with a different mouthpiece and reed and play at the same standard of performance?
Why not? When you switch to Eb clarinet or bass clarinet, you will certainly use a dedicated mouthpiece. Why should C clarinet be different?
But I think it is important to consider WHY the composer asked for C clarinet rather than Bb or A. Composers seem to have used C clarinet for two reasons:
1. For ease of playing in certain keys. This applies to Mozart, Beethoven etc.
2. For a special tone quality, intermediate between the Bb/A and the Eb/D. This applies to Mahler etc. A remarkable example is at rehearsal number 12 in the first movement of Mahler 4, where there is a passage for C clarinet in 6 flats.
In this second case, it seems to me that there is little point in using the C clarinet unless you are going to achieve this special tone quality. This means that you must choose a mouthpiece that helps you achieve it. If a standard Bb mouthpiece does the job, fine. But maybe a dedicated C mouthpiece will be more appropriate.
Post Edited (2008-10-30 09:34)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-10-30 09:42
Clarnibass wrote
"a GOOD repairer can repair any clarinet reagrdless of model. If they are not familiar with the model, for example it has a mechanism different from most, then at worst case it will just take them longer. Just a matter of figuring it out. "
I totally agree. I wonder if Brenda would elaborate on what she meant when she wrote ... "Unless a repairman is familiar with the brand he's only guessing when working with the model."
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-10-30 10:07
Gordon and Clarnibass think that a good repairman can repair any clarinet.
Brenda thinks it is important to be familiar with the model/brand in question.
Now, I know nothing about repairing clarinets. But I seem to recall a thread in which Chris P listed the pad venting heights for Yamaha instruments. I guess this sort of information may be hard to come by for obscure or obsolete instruments.
Maybe what Brenda really meant was: "If you ask a repairman to work on an instrument with which he is not familiar, and for which he can't get a workshop manual, it may take him a while to adjust it optimally."
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-10-30 10:20
>> Why not? When you switch to Eb clarinet or bass
>> clarinet, you will certainly use a dedicated
>> mouthpiece. Why should C clarinet be different?
Maybe because a Bb mouthpiece fits the C clarinet? You might have noticed that it doesn't fit an Eb or bass clarinet  On one it's too small and one too big, but I'm still trying to figure out which is which...
>> In this second case, it seems to me that there is little point in using the
>> C clarinet unless you are going to achieve this special tone quality. This
>> means that you must choose a mouthpiece that helps you achieve it.
Not necessarily. Maybe even the opposite is true, and the same mouthpiece will actually help in showing the specific difference between the clarinets, as opposed to other differences, thich you might or might not want, depending on the specific situation.
I guess it's a matter of what you want and/or need to do. If a piece requires a C clarinet just for a generally slightly different sound, a different mouthpiece might help, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a C clarinet mouthpiece. A different Bb mouthpiece can be just as different.
If a piece requires a specific sound of the C clarinet, maybe it is based on a specific player playing their own instrument with their own mouthpiece. Someone else's C clarinet sound might be completely different. In this case, a C clarinet mouthpiece probably doesn't really help either.
I think the only real reason to play a "real" C clarinet mouthpiece is if it plays better on your C clarinet. In the case of my C clarient and mouthpiece, it doesn't. I think on a C clarinet, like on any clarinet, someone should simply choose the mouthpiece that gives the best intonation, sound, etc. (I suppose the choice can change depending on the music, though I only use one mouthpiece). Trying to justify a specific C clarinet mouthpiece for a different reason is a bit like trying to find a needle in a haystack... but a haystack that doesn't have a needle in it!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-30 10:30
The venting heights I put on here http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=285435&t=285435 for Yamaha clarinets are a good guide across the board for all Boehm system instruments (I've got the ventings for Eb, alto and bass as well), and should serve as a guide to get the adequate venting for any make of clarinet. More venting is always better than less venting.
Some makers have their own ideas of doing things, but on the whole, most Boehm system clarinets will be built similarly so there shouldn't be any problem working on all manner of different makes.
The only clarinets that do throw up a challenge (and most likely induce vomiting) are cheapo Chinese ones due to the poor workmanship, but a well-built clarinet will hold very little surprises and will be easy to put right should anything be untoward.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2008-10-30 14:34
I wasn't going to dip my toes into this discussion just out of consideration for the august opinions of those with such experience. But since some have begun guessing out loud what I may have meant, it's time to speak up.
My C clarinet went in the shop to tweak it for the concert that I'd been writing about lately. The repairman is certainly experienced with years of working with any kind of instrument brought in to him but he took far longer to figure things out - two visits actually and he didn't bill me for the total time he took. But when I e-mailed Luis Rossi if there were any secrets to his design, he spoke up quickly about a small detail that's peculiar with his instruments. Besides designing all his clarinets to be made of only one piece instead of the normal two sections, another design change is that he has placed an extra tone hole and pad cup at the lower end between the two we normally see. This is only a small hole although the cup looks like the other two. Rossi explained that once the other two pads are adjusted to seal 100%, then attention is paid to the smaller one, but it should be sealed only 95%. Now if the repairman knew this about the instrument he may not have spent so many hours while suffering with the flu to get the adjustments worked out.
That's all I meant. It's like consulting the manufacturer's repair guide before fixing a Smart Car when you've been experienced with Buicks, Toyotas and Fords.
Of course those with knowledge of mouthpieces could pin down the solution pretty fast, as is obvious from the responses above. But even then, the solution depends on having knowledge of the specific clarinet.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-10-31 07:39
Hi Brenda
Can you explain a bit more about that extra key, what does it do, and what problems you had from it not being adjusted? How was it not adjusted?
If I understand you correct, the extra key and tone hole are between the F/C key and the E/B, the two lowest pads. This sounds interesting. Can you explain when is this pad open and when it is closed? It sounds to me like the extra low G (clarion D) vent the same as (for example) Buffet and Selmer bass clarinets. Is this correct?
You say this pad needs to be sealed 95%. Obviously it can't leak for the low E and especially the clarion B. Am I right that what you (or actually, Rossi) meant was that it needs to close at slightly less pressure than the regular F/C key (but still seal for the E/B)?
Or am I completely wrong about the use of the extra key?
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2008-10-31 12:53
Clarnibass, I'm only a player and not a technician ![[huh]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie11.gif) . Yes, the key is between the other two as you said. I tried to attach a picture but the file was too large (?). Send me an e-mail and I'll attach the picture for you.
This pad closes for the low E, F, and F# (B, C, and C#).
My husband is a machinist and so works with incredibly small tolerances. He took a look at it and used a simple test to see what happens: He placed a piece of paper under each of the pads, and the upper and lower pads really grabbed the paper, whereas the middle pad only held it but it could be slid out from under the pad fairly easily. So he was satisfied that this met Rossi's criteria.
More than this I cannot tell you, but But Luis Rossi would be very happy to supply any technical information about his designs. He's extremely precise about his work, so has good reasons for whatever he does. Try the web site [www.rossiclarinets.com] or the e-mail rossiclarinet@terra.cl
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-11-02 20:13
" but it should be sealed only 95%. Now if the repairman knew this about the instrument he may not have spent so many hours while suffering with the flu to get the adjustments worked out."
Brenda, I could be mistaken but I think this statement, and backing up ones that you followed it with, are really misleading.
I think there has almost certainly been some sort of communication failure between you and Mr Rossi.
Yes, this clarinet may well have a double F/C key and associated tone holes, as is common on bass clarinets, but 95% seal (5% leak - whatever that means)??? NEVER! No decent tech would leave any leak in that location because it would compromise notes which have lower tone holes closed.
If there were any reason for a 5% leak for F/C, then there would have to be provision in the mechanism for removing that leak for notes with more tone holes closed. If that is the case, I would like to see a photo of this additional mechanism.
I will email Mr Rossi to draw his attention to this thread for comment.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-11-03 04:44
>> Yes, this clarinet may well have a double F/C key and associated tone
>> holes, as is common on bass clarinets, but 95% seal (5% leak - whatever
>> that means)??? NEVER! No decent tech would leave any leak in that location
>> because it would compromise notes which have lower tone holes closed.
I'm pretty convinced that it;s a double vent for G/D like bass clarinets. I'm also pretty convinced that by "95% seal" what they (whoever said that) actually meant was that the pad should have very slightly less closing pressure. Actually, it only needs not to be closed harder that the normal F/C key.
I'm sure because: "This pad closes for the low E, F, and F# (B, C, and C#)."
Exactly the notes that must have this pad closed.
I received a photo from Brenda. It has the adjusting screw for the E and F linkage instead of the bird's foot The normal F/C key has another bar with adjusting screw, maybe for the F#/C# (isn't completely clear in the photo). Or maybe the F/C touch piece actually physically moves the lower key and that moves the normal F/C key with the linkage (assuming because regular Rossis have the E to F adjusting screw linkage but not the second one). A photo from above would probably clarify it.
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