 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clariniano
Date: 2008-09-23 17:56
I never imagined I'd find Glenn Gould performing with a clarinetist...here he is with James Campbell!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7ji1H01s0
Meri
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2008-09-23 21:26
Is it just me or is this painful to listen to?
The sound from the recording is very harsh and the Gould is so out of character. He uses the pedal way too sparingly and when he does it's one big mush...
Perhaps what bugs me most, is the feeling of total dominance of Gould over Campbell, tempos, phrasing it's all Gould deciding. Must have been quite intimidating to play with such a legend at such a young age.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-09-23 23:26
I thought that Campbell did a nice job accompanying Gould ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Then again, perhaps Gould was playing the equally famous "Première Rhapsodie for Solo Piano and Clarinet Obbligato"
BTW - Was Gould playing without printed music?
...GBK
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2008-09-24 00:06
Any idea when this was recorded and where?
Post Edited (2008-09-24 00:06)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2008-09-24 00:54
Wikipedia says James Campbell was born in 1949 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Campbell_(clarinetist), and a comment on YouTube video says he was 23 when the recording was made, so the recording date was in 1972. It was a Canadian Broadcasting Company program, so it was undoubtedly made in the CBC studio.
There's another YouTube version of this performance, which is audio-only but has much better sound and balance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U0-hr9Lg5E. In particular, Gould is not so dominant, though he's obviously the bigger personality.
Ken Shaw
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-09-24 05:57
I liked how the pianist played a lot actually. It was definitely different than other times I heard this piece, but he played great and had a lot of good ideas, plus (in spite of the bad recording) the piano sound was really great. But sure it doesn't work so good with the clarinet playing, so what was interesting for me is to think if maybe different clarinet playing (or player) could play it in a way that would work with the piano playing, and I think it's possible.
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-09-24 13:38
Not to deny the young Mr Campbell, what is outstanding is indeed the playing of the great genius Glenn Gould, who actually changes some of the Debussy piano part, and imbues the work with a beauty unheard of from any other .
Campbell was fortunate to be asked, however knowing how to be in the right place at the right time has always been more of a forte for him than playing the clarinet. I would suspect that Anton Kuerti had a bit to do with the liason, and I am happy for Campbell, but of course, I wish that it had been me.
Sherman Friedland
Post Edited (2008-09-24 13:41)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-09-24 13:47
Sherman -
(donning my musical purist hat)
But does Gould being a "great genius" (your words) give him the right, authority, or freedom, to change Debussy's piano part?
Or was it just "eccentric audacity"? (my words)
Or perhaps, was a young James Campbell too intimidated by the legend of Gould to say anything?
Remember - of all composers of that era, aside from Mahler, Debussy was probably the most precise in regard to notation, rhythmic values and tempo indication. Grossly altering those instructions is a true disservice to the composer.
...GBK
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2008-09-24 13:54
Sherman:
Can you elaborate a little on what you find interesting in Gould's performance?
I listened to the non video performance (better audio), and am less put off by the sound of the piano, still the clarinet/piano balance is way off and the way Gould voices his chords and the multiple drastic rubatos just seem so out of place.
Maybe I am biased to listening to more academic recordings, but this is way out there.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: William
Date: 2008-09-24 14:09
"Is it just me or is this painful to listen to?"
Perhaps it is my computors sound reproduction, but James sounds slightly above pitch most of the way through and this could add to the strident, rather bright sound of his clarinet. I'm certain that it sounded much better live in the studio. How about that ending tempo??
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-09-24 16:22
Sylvain:
The problem is that many people who have gone through a lot with many pianists with that part understand what I am talking about,as you yourself mention. The multiple rubatos as you mention are something your are not accustomed to hearing(nor was I), but fully within the compass of Gould. He was a great individualist, and while you may disagree, I feel that he had license to grace the part as he saw fit.
He was extremely opinionated, even with close friends and musicians and fought with them up to the very performance. There is the case where Leonard Bernstein who was conducting the NY Philharmonic,came out on stage and announced prior to the Brahms D minor with GG as soloist, "I take no responsibilty for the tempo of the first movement of this concerto". (the tempo is always controversial, and remains so.)
I can go through the part with you, however that is something we cannot do together, however I was really stunned to hear him play it. Like you and others, I grew up with this piece and it just shocked me with pleasure. Perhaps I allow too much, if so, forgive me. Campbell was not close to his pianist, but I do not blame him. When you get an opportunity be with a player of his scope, you take it, and pray.
Stay well,
Sherman Friedland
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Author: William
Date: 2008-09-24 16:43
Sherman, perhaps he "changed" the piano part because he "forgot" what was written (playing from memory) and simply improvised until the Debussy came back to him. Just a thought........
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-09-24 17:03
Sherman wrote:
> The multiple rubatos as you mention are something your are
> not accustomed to hearing(nor was I), but fully within the
> compass of Gould.
But the more important question is: Were they "fully within the compass" of Debussy?
> He was a great individualist, and while you may disagree,
> I feel that he had license to grace the part as he saw fit.
So every "great individualist" (your words) has the license to grace the part as he desires?
Within the scope of the composer's parameters, yes...
More than that, I have a problem with.
BTW - I don't expect you to reply to "my gibberish" (a term I haven't heard since my Junior High general music students used it), but again, stepping far outside of the composer's instructions and intentions because one thinks his ideas are more valid than the composer's precise markings, no matter how great an individual player is, is not something that appeals to me.
Yes, there are many who appreciated Gould's eccentricities and proclaimed him a musical genius. But there were others, like George Szell, who acknowledged his musicianship, but called him "a nut"
He was certainly a controversial performer, but someone who I have never gone out of my way to hear...GBK
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2008-09-24 17:06
There is no question in my mind that f I were in Campbell's shoes I would have done whatever Gould decided. Playing with such a musical and personality legend must be *very* intimidating. In the video, Gould displays such confidence and dare I say almost total disregard for the young fellow with the clarinet.
I will agree with Sherman that Gould sheds an entire new light on this piece. I unfortunately do not have the necessary musical background to go through the part and tell you where I think he is wrong.
It just doesn't sound like the piece I know, which is ok we don't have to all do the same things. My problem, is that it does not sound like *any* Debussy piece I have heard performed live or in recordings. There is something strongly un-Debussy about this performance.
Unfortunately, I am not sure the BBoard is the best medium to have this discussion, we would have to look at the part together.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2008-09-24 17:40
The Szell quote, as I heard it, was "That f***ing nut's a genius!
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2008-09-24 17:51
Way back in the early 80s I saw Jim Campbell on tv with Gould..Debussy Rhapsodie. That being said this is an awful audio..it seems like someone recorded with a camera in front of a TV...it did not sound like that when I saw it which was in 80 or 81 ...
David Dow
Post Edited (2008-09-24 17:54)
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Author: Cass Tech
Date: 2008-09-24 19:15
I was privileged to have heard Gould "live" on two occasions: playing trios with Oscar Schumsky and Leonard Rose at Stratford, Ontario; and at Detroit's Masonic Temple, where he played Hindemith's Sonata #3, a Bach English Suite, Beethoven's Sonata #30 and, as an encore, Brahms' Op. 118, number 3. As a Bach keyboard interpreter, he was incomparable. But my favorite of his recordings are his supersonic Mozart Sonatas. After hearing his versions, almost everyone else's seems a deadly bore. (With the notable exceptions of Dinu Lipatti and Ingrid Haebler.)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-09-24 20:16
"You know what I think about metronome marks: they're right for a single bar, like 'roses, with a morning life'. Only there are 'those' who don't hear music and who take these marks as authority to hear it still less! But do what you please." --Claude Debussy (to his publisher)
"So you really think a poem has only one meaning! Aren't you aware that each one of your poems is transformed by each of its readers? And it's the same with every musical score. You only have to listen to experts talking about them. You write poems as you like. We can draw from them the music that we like. And the listener, or reader, finds in them the charm that he likes. Everything is relative." --Claude Debussy (to the poet Sylvain Bonmariage)
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2008-09-24 20:46
MRN,
Great quotes from Debussy which is all we need to know about Debussy's feelings towards the performance practice of his music. I enjoyed this performance despite the sound quality. Some of the rubato's were extreme compared to more traditional performances but they were well executed and convincing.
I'm not sure where GBK is coming from on this one. If you want music to always fit into a little box so that you can understand it then lets just stop live performing alltogether and have computers do it. What Gould did in this recording is what makes music come alive in my opinion.
It's a shame that in the classical music world, performers and performances are almost always criticized when often times, they should be celebrated.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2008-09-25 00:59
I tell you speed is the major destruction of alot of musical greatness..Karl Bohm and Furtwangler never needed to do Beethoven so quickly because they has so much musically to say. Speed and tempi are only relative to how well musically you can bring a work off..I say the Gould Campbell interpretation is very interesting..
David Dow
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2008-09-25 15:57
..just to add..I think the Debussy piece can be done so many way that this is what makes it so fine a work. As to Gould I always had some trouble with elements of his playing..rubati in odd places..accents where none occur. does that detract from his greatness? No..he was a free spirit and a true genius..
David Dow
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-09-25 16:10
I hear that Sony(?) has come out with a 3 cd GG issue containing the '55 and '81 versions of the Goldbergs along with an interview done close to GG's passing.
My personal opinion is that any performer has the prerogative to interpret any piece of music as he/she wishes. Whether the listeners approve or not is their prerogative. Composers have altered and even destroyed their own compositions after creating them. The final release is not necessarily the final cut. Critics don't always have the last word as was discovered in Clevaland.
Bob Draznik
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