 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: stebinus
Date: 2008-09-17 08:45
Being highly sensitive to many types of chemicals I have to be careful what I use for glue. Contact cements are out as well as anything with toluene, hexane, flammable ingredients and the like. I use a wood burner to heat keys so shellacs and hot glues are OK for pads and key corks but when it comes to tenon corks I am at a loss at this point. I'll use super glue for small spot repairs but I don't like it and have to be wary of the fumes from it as well. Heating shellac with an alcohol lamp is also out because I can't be around combustion fumes of any kind but I'm not sure that heated shellac wouldn't dry too fast anyway, even if I used some other heat source to melt it. I've primarily used Micro cement in the past but those little tubes tend to fall apart and become a mess. The only solvent I can use in liquefying shellac is grain alcohol (190 proof Everclear) but I've been told that liquefied shellac or Micro cement is not a good idea for tenons because the alcohol never really evaporates and you don't get a strong enough bond. Does anyone have any ideas? I really want to be able to do these jobs myself and not send them to a tech.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-09-17 09:26
What about a hot melt glue gun?
Or (this is not intended as a joke) a gas/vapor mask to filter the fumes?
As far as using a woodburner for pads, there is a product from RadioShack called 'ColdHeat' that gets hot only when it contacts metal. Very useful and portable. It runs on batteries so investment in rechargable batteries is a good idea. I use this all the time for pads.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-09-17 10:43
I have a non-toxic solvent-free contact cement. It requires considerably more time to dry (before you can attach the two parts), however.
--
Ben
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-09-17 12:29
What about the Valentino self adhesive cork? Presized and seems easy to use.
[Disclamer- I have NO experience with it and can't comment on performance, but it might be appropriate for your situation.]
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-09-17 13:17
Is PVA glue OK for you?
I have used it as a contact adhesive on paper, so it might work for cork on timber. The parts have to be pressed together at exactly the right stage of almost set.
Have you considered animal glues such as hide glue?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_glue
Otherwise, instead of using cork, just bind the tenons with thread, like what used to be done on all instruments.
I could send you instructions, but somebody probably knows where they are on-line.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-09-17 13:57
I used double-sided tape years ago on an oboe tenon cork (on my own oboe) and this worked much better than I expected.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-09-17 16:38
Its success may depend on the climate (temperature) and the particular adhesive on the particular tape, and the type of cork grease used.
But some of those double sided tapes give off some pretty wiffy vapours when the backing is removed.
Is contact adhesive REALLY a problem after all the solvents have evaporated and left rubber? Another person could do the job.
After all, a fair range of non human-friendly vapours are given off by a wood fire as well!
BTW, for heating keys, Votaw make a tool with no flame, just using electrical resistance within the key metal.
http://www.votawtool.com/zcom.asp?pg=products&specific=jnprjnl0
A similar tool can be made by using a soldering gun but cut the soldering tip off the end, leaving the stiff wire parts that lead to the very tip. But if you use a cheap model, it is likely that the voltage is high enough for arc damage to the surface of the key.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-09-17 22:32
Gordon- The Votaw tool is very similar to what I was mentioning. It really is quite useful. Does it work on laqured saxophone keys? The one I mentioned does not.
The only down side (for me) of the Votaw tool is that it is not really portable.
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Author: jparrette
Date: 2008-09-18 00:25
Home Depot and Lowe's sell water-based contact cements. I've never tried them, and I'm sure the drying times are longer, but they're worth a try.
John Parrette
CLARION MUSICAL SERVICES
john@clarionmusical.com
914-805-3388
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Author: hans
Date: 2008-09-18 01:19
Re: "the alcohol never really evaporates"...
190 proof ethanol takes 328 seconds to reach 90% evaporation and is considered a Medium Evaporating solvent.
Toluene, which is what I usually see listed as the solvent on contact cement, takes 234 seconds to reach 90% evaporation. It fits into the range of a Medium Evaporating solvent.
200 proof ethanol (i.e., pure ethyl alcohol) is almost as fast as toluene at 278 seconds.
So I think "the alcohol never really evaporates" is probably not correct, especially for 200 proof.
Here are a few other common solvents to consider, in case you are less sensitive to them:
acetone (commonly used to remove nail polish) - 82 seconds
methyl ethyl ketone - 121 seconds
Hans
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-09-18 01:57
"200 proof ethanol ... is almost as fast as toluene at 278 seconds."
278 seconds for what???
If I leave the lid off my alcohol bottle, it will takes weeks/months/years to evaporate, depending on the surface area, access to the atmosphere, and the quantity in the bottle.
If I leave the top on, it will prob ably take decades for the vapour to work its way through the plastic top.
If I have I have stuff dissolved in it the alcohol, resulting in very high viscosity, eg shellac paste, then it takes hours or days in the open air.
The same past will take days to months, possibly years, if the evaporation is restricted by being between relatively impervious materials such as cork, dense timber, metal, plastic. An that is why almost no technicians use it in this way.
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Author: Geirskogul
Date: 2008-09-18 04:03
water-based contact cement seems to be your best bet. Of course, a friend to repair it for you using normal cement seemes to be the best bet.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-09-18 13:47
It depends on what "non-toxic" means! Bear in mind that this person is ultra-ractive to a wide range of chemicals...
Irrritation to skin, throat, lungs, nose eyes and digestive tract ?!!
http://www.crystalz.com/MSDS%202013%20Crafter's%20Pick%20THE%20ULTIMATE.pdf
Central nervous system depression, irritation of nose, throat and lungs, skin, eyes.... headache, dizziness, nausea, vomiting, unconsciousness and even asphyxiation... allergic skin reaction.
http://www.elmers-glue.com/msds/me750.htm
Vapours from the product may be irritating to the eyes, respiratory system and skin.... possible allergic reactions. Skin and eye rritation and sensitisation, severe irritation of the gastrointestinal tract
http://www.azpartsmaster.com/images/msds/d15230.pdf
They do not look non-toxic to me!
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-09-18 14:08
> Vapours from the product may be irritating to the eyes, respiratory system
> and skin.... possible allergic reactions. Skin and eye rritation and
> sensitisation, severe irritation of the gastrointestinal tract
The same could be said about onions...
--
Ben
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Author: hans
Date: 2008-09-18 17:51
Gordon,
The numbers are seconds to reach 90% evaporation - a reference to a standard lab test that allows solvents to be compared on this characteristic. A lower number indicates a faster evaporating solvent. If a solvent is needed, ceteris paribus, this may be an important factor in deciding which to use.
Hans
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Author: stebinus
Date: 2008-09-18 20:39
Gordon thanks for the research. Who knew that when a seller claims something is non toxic they don't really mean it? I do believe however the Gorilla glue you discovered the report on may be different than the Gorilla PVC glue I found. Requires further investigation anyway.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-09-18 23:50
Hans, the numbers are only for a comparison, in a specific controlled experiment.
I was talking about the reality when actually using the materials, in vastly different situations.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-09-18 23:54
I think I found a solvent that evaporates faster than acetone. (At least here it does).
MONEY!
The only problem is to squeeze the coins out of a tube, but I'm working on that.
--
Ben
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-09-19 16:20
stebinus wrote:
<<I do believe however the Gorilla glue you discovered the report on may be different than the Gorilla PVC glue I found. Requires further investigation anyway.>>
I think you're right. The "regular" Gorilla glue is a polyurethane adhesive used in woodworking (I have some I bought for that purpose). It's strange stuff because you have to get it in contact with water to use it, and then it expands (which makes it suitable for woodworking if you can clamp the parts together--it probably wouldn't work so well for tenon corks, though, for this reason).
I don't know anything about Gorilla PVC cement, but what I do know is that most PVC cements work by essentially dissolving some of the PVC so that the PVC will fuse together when the cement (which is a solvent) evaporates (so it would really only be suitable for use on PVC--God only knows what it would do to Grenadilla). This Gorilla PVC stuff may or may not work that way--I don't know. But it is a different product from the regular "Gorilla Glue," to be sure.
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