 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: suavkue
Date: 2008-09-13 14:24
I've been having problems lately with trying to understand what editions of these pieces there are out there (for some reason, I always run into these kinds).
For a state Solo & Ensemble contest this year (Junior year of High School), I am deciding between either the Poulenc Sonata or Copland Clarinet Concerto (but am still looking for more repertoire that may interest me).
The problem is, well, both of those pieces have had quite a few revisions; the actual notes of the Poulenc Sonata aren't known note-to-note and there's quite a few versions of it (dating back since 1962, I think?). And the Copland Clarinet Concerto has two versions. However, I think I'm fine with buying the 2006 edition of the Poulenc.
A few questions, though:
1. My teacher prefers that I play the original version of the Copland, if I were to play it at all. Where could I buy the original? (I was told that the original hits the second C above the staff.)
2. What are some clarinet repertoire that do not focus on virtuosic technique, but are rather slow and emphasize musical expression? (Probably along the lines of the Adagio of the Mozart Clarinet Concerto or the intro of the Copland.)
Note that I'm trying to stay in the late-Romantic Period / 20th Century with repertoire.
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My current equipment:
Ridenour Lyrique 576BC, Rico Reserve 4, Ridenour Hand Finished Mouthpiece, Luyben Ligature
Post Edited (2008-09-14 01:00)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-09-13 15:24
As the late Jerry Pierce once told me, regarding the different editions of the Poulenc, and which one to play -
Jerry said: "it really doesn't matter, because it is all Poulenc - at one time or another"
If you are curious about the different editions and their genesis, there has been a long recent discussion on the Klarinet mailing list between Tony Pay, myself, and others.
Very interesting reading...GBK
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-09-13 15:33
suavkue wrote:
> What are some clarinet repertoire that do not focus on
> virtuosic technique, but are rather slow and emphasize
> musical expression? (Probably along the lines
> of the Adagio of the Mozart Clarinet Concerto
> or the intro of the Copland.)
Verdi - La Forza del Destino
...GBK
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-09-13 18:16
I'm not sure the "original" Copland was ever published. Copland made changes to the original manuscript to make them easier for Benny Goodman to play, and this modified version is the one you usually hear in the recordings. If you're going to play this piece for state solo & ensemble, they probably will expect you'll play the same version Benny Goodman played, which is not the "priginal," strictly speaking.
If you read the threads Mark posted links to, you know that I own the 2006 edition of Poulenc. I played mvt. 3 Poulenc in high school for Solo & Ensemble (18 years ago). The 2006 edition (of that movement, anyway) doesn't sound different to me from what I remember playing back then, although the typography is easier on the eyes in the new edition. I think most of the note controversies are in the first movement, which I have heard recorded differently by different people. I think there's maybe only one note that people change in the 3rd movement from time to time. As Tony Pay pointed out in one of the cited threads, however, the controversy over which version Poulenc intended for publication has been resolved (despite the fact that some people think otherwise).
If you decide to play Poulenc, you should also have a listen to Poulenc's Gloria (choral/orchestra piece), because mvts. 1 & 2 of the clarinet sonata borrow materials from the Gloria (or maybe it's the other way around...he was working on both concurrently, as I understand). The Gloria will also give you some insight into Poulenc's quirky sense of humor (listen to how the syllables in the Gloria are accented--there are also a lot of other "musical jokes" in the Gloria that make it interesting listening).
As far as your question no. 2 goes, have you considered playing one of the Brahms Sonatas? They are late 19th century standard repertoire, very musically sophisticated, and intellectually challenging, but not virtuosic like Weber or Spohr. They may be just what you are looking for. In particular, the 2nd movement of the 1st sonata has a somewhat dreamy quality like the other pieces you mentioned. Martin Frost's recording of these (which is on iTunes) is really good, btw.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-09-13 19:50
mrn wrote:
> If you decide to play Poulenc, you should also have a listen to
> Poulenc's Gloria (choral/orchestra piece), because mvts. 1 & 2
> of the clarinet sonata borrow materials from the Gloria (or
> maybe it's the other way around...he was working on both
> concurrently, as I understand).
C'mon - listen to Poulenc's Flute Sonata to listen to all the riffs that were borrowed to make up the Clarinet Sonata! (and parts of the Gloria).
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-09-13 21:34
Mark Charette wrote:
> mrn wrote:
>
>
> > If you decide to play Poulenc, you should also have a listen
> to
> > Poulenc's Gloria (choral/orchestra piece), because mvts. 1 &
> 2
> > of the clarinet sonata borrow materials from the Gloria (or
> > maybe it's the other way around...he was working on both
> > concurrently, as I understand).
>
> C'mon - listen to Poulenc's Flute Sonata to listen to all the
> riffs that were borrowed to make up the Clarinet Sonata! (and
> parts of the Gloria).
True, and the Oboe Sonata's 2nd movement sounds to me (at least in part) like a sped up version of the slow parts of the Clarinet Sonata's 1st mvt.
But to really understand how Poulenc earned the title "half bad-boy, half monk," you really have to hear his can-can.....umm, I'm mean Gloria....
Lau-DA-mus TE! Lau-DA-mus TE! Be-ne-di-ci-MUS TE! Be-ne-di-ci-MUS TE!
I mean, if that doesn't make you chuckle....
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-09-13 23:33
Original version of the Copland???
What is he thinking?
Jeez..... Furthermore, most pre college judges aren't even aware of that version.
I would stick with the Goodman ver. If playing it.
Suggest the poulenc as a better option.
You could play a slow mvt of a Weber Concerto as a thought.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: marshall
Date: 2008-09-13 23:57
A friend of mine played the Poulenc sonata her freshman year of college...she borrowed Dan Gilbert's copy. I've looked at his copy and my 2006 copy, and they are identical note for note (at least, I didn't notice any differences). The only real difference is the 2006 copy is much easier on the eyes. There is a MUCH older edition (probably the original) where there are mabye three notes that are different in the entire sonata. So, as far as Poulenc goes, get whatever edition you can find cheapest. I believe there is a change in one of the quintuplet notes in the first movement, and then in the third movement in measure 24 (I think) there's an E that's replaced in the later editions by an F# (so it's in pseudo-3rds instead of chromatic). Most recordings of professionals I've heard play the E...but those are generally the older players who have probably been playing it since before the edition with the F# came out.
You should do the first movement of the Saint-Saens sonate. I really think that movement is perfect for a highschool S&E. It demonstrates phrasing very well and has enough technical work to be a fairly flashy piece. That's the piece I did junior year.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-09-14 00:44
marshall wrote:
> There is a MUCH older edition (probably the original)
> where there are mabye three notes that are different
> in the entire sonata.
Four notes.
...GBK
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Author: suavkue
Date: 2008-09-14 01:10
The reason why I am avoiding any pieces with virtuosic technique is because I played the Mozart Clarinet Concerto in my sophomore year (the Rondo for the state contest last year, and the Adagio and Allegro for my final exam for band last year). I'm also not much of a fan of Weber's works... I'm going for the more late-Romantic/ early 20th Century mainly because of the chromaticism, atonality and all of those other musical devices that I don't understand, yet I do like...
So the original of the Copland has not been published? I guess my teacher will have to figure that later (he suggests that I play Poulenc this year, and the Copland for a concerto competition in my senior year).
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My current equipment:
Ridenour Lyrique 576BC, Rico Reserve 4, Ridenour Hand Finished Mouthpiece, Luyben Ligature
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2008-09-14 01:51
And the Copland and Poulenc don't have "virtuosic technique"???? I'll maybe give you some of the Poulenc there...but the Copland is fairly virtuosic.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-09-14 02:51
Is it that you're looking to get away from fast-finger pieces or just that you don't like the classical/early-romantic style?
I ask this because Poulenc and Copland have their virtuosic moments, too. The last movement of Poulenc and the last 2/3 of Copland could be considered virtuosic in their own way. (Copland is harder than it sounds, by the way)
Another early 20th century piece that is similar in difficulty level to Copland is Debussy's Premiere Rhapsodie. It has its finger-twisting moments, too. Poulenc is easier than either of these pieces (at least I think so).
Hindemith's Sonata is a nice piece if you like 20th century neoclassicism (which I do), but it is easier than all of the above, so it may not be challenging enough for you. (Although it is plenty challenging for the pianist.)
Leonard Bernstein also wrote a Sonata, which sounds a lot like Hindemith's (because it was influenced by Hindemith). I've never played the Bernstein piece (I've played all the other ones I've listed), but it sounds more difficult than Hindemith.
Several of the works people have mentioned in this thread are in the public domain and can be found on http://www.imslp.org for free if you want to "try them out." The Debussy, Brahms Sonatas, and the Saint-Saens Sonata are all on there.
There are also some YouTube videos worth looking at, if you haven't heard these pieces. I tried to find high quality professional players where I could, but I couldn't find top notch performances for everything. These will at least give you some idea what the pieces are like, though.
Poulenc:
Mvt. 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcgkhnQIeA4
Mvt. 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRk0OhP_AAs
Mvt. 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2U-naNTOaY
Copland:
(Just slow part) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xec5GBuc10E
(Whole thing pt. 1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbz_6-nXC44
(pt. 2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N3rP32docE
Debussy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykJIPZrRzh4
Saint-Saens--selected (some mistakes, but gives you general idea)
1st mvt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoaavXUOhIc
Bernstein
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyGKW7tTWhc
Hindemith--selected (tempo too sluggish and this guy has a lot of problems, but it gives you general idea--best I could find without making my own video)
Mvt. 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC1fyEAPYtE
Brahms
Sonata 1
Mvt. 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtqquFV3hmE
Mvt. 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Vb3ziCe6A
Mvt. 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InJVJki_BYo
Mvt. 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_jqTtWRcPI
Sonata 2
Mvt. 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM7XaqAhQwQ
Mvt. 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuDc7r8qyfI
Mvt. 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=842_UwKOG3E
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Author: suavkue
Date: 2008-09-14 03:48
mrn wrote:
>>Is it that you're looking to get away from fast-finger pieces or just that you >>don't like the classical/early-romantic style?
Fast-finger pieces, yes. Classical/early-romantic, well... the only reason why I am moving away from it this time is because I tend to like atonality/key changes/chromaticism (but again, to an extent).
My teacher did give me a copy of the Hindemith to try, however, I have yet to look into it... He also gave me a copy of the (Carl) Stamitz Clarinet Concerto (#3 in Bb Major), but I don't really like it... it seems to be quite similar to the Mozart, in my opinion.
I was considering the Debussy; although it sounds nice, for some reason, I don't like playing it...
I still have yet to look into the Brahms, Bernstein, and Saint-Saens... I'll look over them tomorrow.
Thanks everyone!
-----
My current equipment:
Ridenour Lyrique 576BC, Rico Reserve 4, Ridenour Hand Finished Mouthpiece, Luyben Ligature
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2008-09-14 03:53
I'm a little surprised that nobody mentioned Copland's clarinet sonata, which he transcribed from his violin sonata. It's very nice music, and it is becoming a clarinet favorite.
The Martinu sonatina is a nice piece, but challenging. Gerald Finzi's Bagatelles are also nice, and not too difficult. Paul Ben Haim's Three Songs Without Words
require almost no virtuosic technique, and they're beautiful.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2008-09-14 04:01
I forgot to mention another possibility--Daniel Gregory Mason's sonata. It's not often heard, but it's an interesting work.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-09-14 04:57
suavkue wrote:
<<My teacher did give me a copy of the Hindemith to try, however, I have yet to look into it... He also gave me a copy of the (Carl) Stamitz Clarinet Concerto (#3 in Bb Major), but I don't really like it... it seems to be quite similar to the Mozart, in my opinion.>>
The Stamitz concertos pre-date Mozart (I think there are 12 of them in all, but #3 is the most played). #3 is not my favorite either, but Sabine Meyer's recording of it is really good (her improvs. make it more interesting). My favorite of the Stamitz concertos is the one that Sabine Meyer recorded as #11 in Eb (I say this because there are actually two concertos that are referred to as #11 in Eb--one published by G. Schirmer and the other one I believe is published only in Germany, I believe--naturally, the one I like better is the hard-to-find one).
Since somebody mentioned the Finzi Bagatelles, I thought I'd also point out that Finzi wrote a really nice Concerto, too. It's modern, but also very musical and accessible to the listener. I heard a recording of Alan Hacker playing this piece on the radio once, and I've been a fan of it ever since. You can find it on iTunes.
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Author: suavkue
Date: 2008-09-17 20:33
I received the following pieces from my band director to try:
Three Essays for Clarinet and Piano- Norman Dello Joio
Grand Duo Concertant- Carl Maria Von Weber
Variations for Clarinet and Piano- Carl Maria Von Weber
Fantasy-Pieces for Clarinet and Piano- Robert Schumann
Sonata #1 and #2- Johannes Brahms
Suite for Emma- John Dankworth
The ones that seem to give me the most interest are the Suite for Emma, the Three Essays, and Fantasy-Pieces... I might play the Grand Duo Concertant or Brahms' Sonata #1 for my second solo...
But a question:
Where can I find recordings of the Suite for Emma, the Three Essays, and Fantasy-Pieces?
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My current equipment:
Ridenour Lyrique 576BC, Rico Reserve 4, Ridenour Hand Finished Mouthpiece, Luyben Ligature
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-09-17 22:48
You should be able to find recordings of the Schumann Fantasy Pieces (Fantaisiestucke) at any major CD seller, e.g., Amazon.com.
Alan Vivian has recorded the Suite for Emma on a CD titled "Fancy That!" CD Baby shows it in stock. (Google "Dankworth Suite Emma" without the quotes for a direct link.
I don't recall ever hearing/hearing of a recording of the Dello Joio "Essays" and I don't find it in Canfield.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-09-18 00:13
Martin Frost has a good recording of the Schumann Fantasy-Pieces on iTunes.
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