 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Olorin
Date: 2008-09-08 18:40
hi ---
trying to get pines of rome perfectly legato is starting to drive me insane! i was wondering if anyone has any tricks that they'd like to share? i've tried shoving the clarinet up to reduce lip pressure, messing with how much i open the register key...
it's mostly the throat A to B above the staff that really irks me.
thanks!
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2008-09-08 18:52
If only you could ask Gigliotti, but you probably could ask Steve Girko, who plays it flawlessly, and many others..
richard smith
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-09-08 19:33
Try this:
1. play a high B without the tongue.
2. take the clarinet out of your mouth and say "tsssss" with a high a pitch as possible, but as quietly as you can.
3. play the high B again with this kind of airflow.
Was 3 different from 1? Was it better or worse? Do 2 a few times and then alternate between 3 and 1 (1 being the way you normally play high B)
Please report back. If this exercise brings you any interesting results then we can move onto the next step. If not then I'm barking up the wrong tree!
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Author: Ed
Date: 2008-09-08 19:55
Make sure that the reed is very comfortably responsive, especially at the tip. It is important that it can speak very easily. Keep the embouchure only as firm as needed to control and color the tone. Use lots of steady fast airflow.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-09-08 21:48
Try this fingering for B. I think it works better (although you have to make sure you have really good air support, because it's a bit resistant):
x x x / x x x plus RH Eb trill key
RT
If you try this, you should experiment with how far you push the Eb key to get the best result. I also tried leaving the RH down (including the Eb key) for the A, and it seemed to work well.
Post Edited (2008-09-08 22:25)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-09-08 22:23
mrn wrote:
> Try this fingering for B. I think it works better (although
> you have to make sure you have really good air support, because
> it's a bit resistant):
>
> x x x / x x x plus RH Eb trill key
> RT
Although that fingering for B5 can be useful in certain passages, this isn't one of them...GBK
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-09-08 23:19
GBK wrote:
> Although that fingering for B5 can be useful in certain
> passages, this isn't one of them...GBK
Why? When do you think someone should use that fingering? And how do you suggest handling this passage?
I'm not trying to argue that you're wrong, BTW--it's just that if you don't explain why you think I'm wrong and what you think is a better solution, nobody learns anything, least of all me.
All I know is that I tried this out with my A clarinet and a well-responding reed a little while ago and I managed to make a smoother transition between the A and high B on my instrument using this fingering. I don't know it why it worked as well as it did, but I liked it better because it was less grunty, so I thought maybe somebody else might have the same experience (although I recognize that it's very possible they won't). I've read that this fingering is sometimes unstable, but for whatever reason, I didn't have that kind of trouble with it.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-09-08 23:33
Aside from voicing the interval correctly, with the proper airflow, a fairly common fingering "trick" (for lack of a better term) for that passage is to play the throat A and put down the right pinky Ab/Eb key.
Keep the right pinky Ab/Eb depressed when you go up to the B5. This will permit the B5 to speak a bit quicker, with less resistance.
Your suggested B5 fingering is excellent for a soft, covered trill up to C6, when used with this fingering for C6:
TR X X X (D#/Eb key) / X X X (Ab/Eb key)
...GBK
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-09-08 23:43
The interval irks you (most probably) because you are doing something to irk the interval; something with your embouchure. In assisting a student with this problem I have frequently asked them to 'blow the clarinet just normally while not doing anything else" and I place my fingers on their horn and not telling them what fingers I'm placing on the horn. "Don't change your embouchure, your air column, change nothing, just play normally". I then play the throat A and immediately slur to the high B, and of course, it comes out easily, pops out, if you will. Practice only throat A to middle B, then without changing your embouchure, your support, or certainly without gesticulating with your fingers, move to the octave above, keeping the support . If you move nothing, it will come out;if you so much as raise your shoulder, it will give you a problem. Continue with the solo only when this easy interval becomes an easy interval, which it is.
There can be other issues here, reed, particular resistance factors, and of course, where you are in your clarinet technique . But, no, there are no tricks.Please do not think that way.
In performing that work, I have actually played it on both the A and the Bb clarinet. At the time I was playing on full Boehm Mazzeo clarinets and playing it on Bb, it really was easier. Why? Because all of your fingers are down almost all of the solo, and with the articulated keys, it was a breeze. On the A, you have to have a good A and sometimes those are hard to come by. You might think of practicing everything on the A as it helps you with that instrument and switching to Bb is really quite easily done. lots of people do that, and it works quite well, especially if your A is much more resistant than your Bb.
That is considered a tip, but not a trick.
Just a suggestion.
Sherman Friedland
Post Edited (2008-09-08 23:46)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-09-08 23:52
Sherman's points are excellent, especially the tip about not moving or changing anything (embouchure, body position, air flow, etc...) to make the interval sound effortless. This is similar to the technique we often use with beginners who are first feeling what it's like going over the break, by having the teacher open the register key when the student plays a low note
Another point - your A clarinet must be in perfect regulation, including (if needed on some Buffet A clarinets) a different register tube to alleviate the grunting of the G5, A5 and B5 ... GBK
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-09-09 01:50
I’ve had a few occasions to perform the first clarinet part myself. There is no trick; it’s all about fundamentals and a good reed. The A has little resistance; the high B is a naturally brighter note and has more resistance so the tendency is for it to pop. You need to keep a very steady air stream and not allow yourself to “add” air when you skip up while voicing the high B properly. Along with that you need to move your fingers very smoothly with exact coordination and have a solid embouchure and not close your throat or raise your tongue to high as to not disturb the airflow. ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
Listen to a little Mozart
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2008-09-09 05:00
There is a trick, although no one else has brought this up.
Although you mentioned that you've experimented with how far you open the register key, try this. Some clarinetists go as far as to put a folded piece of index card under the register key.
You still have to make sure you keep your embouchure stable and use a good, fast airstream, but this might help you. This way you don't have to be so concerned with the actual amount you have to depress the register key.
Christopher Nichols, D.M.A.
Assistant Professor of Clarinet
University of Delaware
Post Edited (2008-09-09 05:03)
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2008-09-10 09:31
I've never had to play this myself but I have a feeling that it may be one of those things where, the more you worry about it, the more you tense up and the more difficult it will seem. I realise that this is what various people have touched on in their posts but I thought there was no harm putting it another way!
Good luck!
Vanessa.
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Author: Tara
Date: 2008-09-10 23:13
crnichols- thanks for bringing up the trick. As I scanned down the responses to the post, I couldn't believe no one had mentioned it! I call it "the wedgie". I use a little folded piece of paper- and it works very well for me. Many many many many many people I know use "the wedgie" for this excerpt.
Good luck,
Tara
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-09-10 23:25
I second Nessie on this. Just play it and see what happens, if you become stressed about the solo it'll turn into a "thing" and you don't want that believe me. As I say you need to have a relaxed mind and clear focus on what it is you want and need to achieve, that way your more likely to succeed. Good Luck.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-09-11 01:28
Well I must admit I'd never heard off the "trick” after teaching and playing all these years. But I still think no one should need a “trick” to play this beautiful solo. You should have the right fundamentals and it will go well every time. I tried it and I didn't notice a difference but maybe that's because I can easily play the A to the B without a problem in the first place so there was no difference.
Sorry, but that’s my opinion. ESP
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-09-11 01:49
After reading this thread, I'm beginning to wonder if my A instrument (which is an R13 I purchased new earlier this year) needs a little work on the vent tube. I can play this same note combination on my Bb flawlessly, while on the A, there's a very slight initial gruntiness that goes away when I only open the register key slightly (or if I use that other B fingering, which uses a different tone hole). Or maybe I'm just too much of a perfectionist and am hearing something nobody else does....
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-09-11 01:50
There are a list of subdisciplines which every clarinetist learns so that great fears, (such as this wonderful clarinet solo, alone, full of intervals, and lengthy) poses no particular threat. While it's true that the throat A has little resistance and the high B can be bright, the clarinetist learns to play these evenly, even if they are not that way on the ordinary clarinet. There are a number of methods to execute smoothly and evenly and associated things to remember when one is confronted with this part, which is not difficult. Without these things I call subdisciplines, learning to play evenly or to sound evenly on the clarinet is or can be rather "chancy" and one might resort to "tricks", which is not the way to play poor Respighis clarinet part(s).
It is by the way, a great way to test an A clarinet when you are contemplating such a purchase. If you are a disciplined player, just play the Pines solo and if it is facile and smooth and in tune, certainly consider that instrument.
Sherman Friedland
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-09-11 01:55
I've been there. The clarinet of which you speak has not been played enough,most probably. The A plays differently than the Bb, especially the kind I feel sure you play, and that can be a great deal of difference. Both Mr. Palanker and Mr. Bloomberg have it right. Can you switch easily?Do you? Are your horns easily switchable?
Sherman Friedland
Post Edited (2008-09-11 01:59)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-09-11 16:57
S. Friedland wrote:
> I've been there. The clarinet of which you speak has not been
> played enough,most probably. The A plays differently than the
> Bb, especially the kind I feel sure you play, and that can be a
> great deal of difference. Both Mr. Palanker and Mr. Bloomberg
> have it right. Can you switch easily?Do you? Are your horns
> easily switchable?
That may be it. My R-13 Bb has been my trusted companion for nearly 20 years (I played on a Leblanc Dynamique before that). I bought the R-13 A in March. I've been playing mostly on my A since then to get used to it. Good time to revisit Mozart, I figured. (especially since when I first got the A clarinet, it took a few days to get used to the fact that the notes coming out were "not the same" as what I was fingering--only Mozart sounded like right notes to me! )
When I first bought it, I thought the clarion A was really grunty. But after a while I figured out how to make the A's sound better most of the time. (I'm not quite sure what I did--slightly different voicing, but if you asked me to describe it, I couldn't say specifically). Keeping the register key closer to the hole also makes the A's sound better, I found. I also thought the chalumeau D was rather stuffy when I first got the instrument. I had a repair guy look at it and he adjusted my bridge key corks, which seemed to smooth that out.
I haven't really noticed any problems switching back and forth, although the extra resistance and bulkiness of the A took some getting used to initially. The pieces I'm playing on the A currently, I haven't had any real problems with. I think this throat A-high B slur is a more extreme leap, though, so maybe that's a better indicator of where I am in my familiarization with the instrument.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-09-12 01:45
Hi all, I'm back. I tried MRNs trick, it is a trick. Although it does come out a B the tone quality is less than one would expect to play in place of the normal B for that solo. Perhaps in the hands of a very experienced player one can find a way to make that fingering sound good but that same experienced player would have no need for a "trick". It's also "tricky" to finger smoothly from the A. Once again I will say there is no need to find an alternate way to play the B, it isn't very difficult when using the proper fundamentals. By the way, if your reed is to soft and you don't have enough resistance to give the skip good support the B will pop out much more easily. You need something to push against otherwise you have to "hold back" your air support and you don't won't to have to do that. ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457 Listen to a little Mozart
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-09-12 09:34
Ed Palanker wrote:
>> ...there is no need to find an alternate way to play the B, it isn't very difficult when using the proper fundamentals.>>
I agree with this; but also with the notion that it's more awkward on some clarinet setups than others:
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/1998/10/000872.txt
>> By the way, if your reed is [too] soft and you don't have enough resistance to give the skip good support the B will pop out much more easily. You need something to push against otherwise you have to "hold back" your air support and you don't [want] to have to do that.>>
I agree that you don't want to play with a reed that is 'too soft', almost by definition. But I think it's worth being clearer about how the basic principle of support comes into the business of playing this slur, going along with the argument discussed here in the thread 'rightly confused':
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=204498&t=204498
Playing almost any legato interval on the clarinet requires going between two notes that have different responses, and that therefore require different air pressures to sound at the same dynamic. But it doesn't seem like that to an expert player, who has learnt to compensate *outside consciousness* by modulating diaphragm resistance to the constant upward push of the 'blowing' system (primarily abdominal and back opposition).
So we *feel* as though we are blowing just the same throughout, even though what happens at the mouthpiece is different. And using support is 'holding back' in one sense of those words: the diaphragm 'holds back' the constant blowing.
But it's not 'holding back' in the other sense: namely, *reducing* the blowing.
The 'outside consciousness' bit is often misunderstood; here is an exchange between Jonathan Cohler and myself on the Klarinet list that has a really good go at explaining it more fully:
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2008/01/000124.txt
Tony
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-09-14 22:57
By the way, I just wanted to thank Tony, Ed, and Sherman for their help on my A-B issue--I think I've now got the grunt out of my A-B jump without resorting to "tricks." Just took a little practice to (extra-consciously) figure it out--I had simply never tried that before on my A. I hope the OP is having similar success.
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