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Author: CarlT
Date: 2008-09-04 18:58
On a recent thread, "Playing the highest notes fast", finger lifting height was touched on. I'd appreciate you experienced players expanded on that.
I've watched several professional clarinet players on YouTube, and some of the best of them had fingers flying all over the place.
My own teacher's fingers fly around. He won't allow me though, as he says it's best to learn to keep one's fingers about 1/2", or so, over the tone holes since one can get them down faster when one needs to. I agree with Gordon (NZ) that it takes little, if any, more time to tap down from 1 or even 2 inches height, than it does for 1/2".
To me, it's much harder to concentrate on keeping fingers just "hovering" over the tone holes than forgetting about the fingers and allowing them to go their natural ways. We beginners have enough to try to think about without having to worry about the exact height of our unused fingers.
Who's right on this? Could this be another thing of "whatever works"?
I would really like to see some of you teachers and really good players tell (admit???) how you actually proceed with this aspect of playing yourselves.
CarlT
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-09-04 19:06
With sax and oboe playing I've been told to keep the fingers in contact with the fingerplates but not actually closing them until I need to, and on clarinet to keep finger movement to a minimum (around 5-10mm off the rings), though it's much easier said than done.
Especially when it comes to the left hand and keeping the left thumb as near to the thumb ring as is practical when getting around the throat notes. I was always told to do a lot of LH excercises (mostly Jean-Jean 'Vade Mecum') to keep my left hand fingers and thumb from straying too far from where they should be.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-09-04 19:08
I think it's as much a "muscle memory" thing as any other factor. Think of a baseball player using the same stance in the batter's box every time at bat.
Bob Draznik
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Author: brycon
Date: 2008-09-04 20:37
I've seen many players that preach keeping the fingers close to the keys play with horrible technical facility. If you are a beginner with a lot to concentrate on while playing, I would focus mainly on allowing the hands to be completely relaxed and fluid. For some people, concentrating on keeping the fingers very close to the keys creates tension in the fingers and hands which may lead to problems in other areas.
I keep my fingers rather close to the keys, and I have yet to hear a professional argue otherwise. But my advice would be to concentrate primarily on staying very relaxed.
Post Edited (2008-09-04 20:38)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-09-04 21:19
It's really all about being relaxed in the fingers, as Brycon says, and in the forearms and especially in the mind.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-09-04 21:26
It takes two forces to move a finger, one to start the movement and another to stop it (due to Newton's laws of motion). You have to use your muscles to start the movement, but the stopping force can be provided by gravity, the elasticity of your hand, and muscular exertion (usually a combination of these is what happens).
If you try too hard to keep your fingers close to the holes/keys, you can end up overrelying on your muscles to provide both the starting and stopping forces. This creates tension because you have the muscles in your hand trying to perform opposing work.
If you want to keep your fingers close to the keys/holes, the way to do it is to apply less force in your fingers to begin with (relax), so you don't have to rely on your muscles to stop the finger motion (which creates tension).
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-09-04 22:06
Brycon wrote:
>> I keep my fingers rather close to the keys, and I have yet to hear a professional argue otherwise. >>
Then you haven't read what I've written, both here and in my chapter in the Cambridge Companion to the Clarinet.
There (and here) I've maintained that a better approach is to think of using slow finger movement -- unless faster movement is required. Distance from the keys is not of primary importance.
Others here have said, or have implied, that thinking of playing 'with relaxed fingers' is more important than thinking of playing 'with slow fingers'. But if you practise using slow finger movements, then it is immediately obvious where that doesn't work at a particular point. Then, 'fast' overrides 'slow' in a much more natural way.
That's because the fast/slow requirement is an OBJECTIVE PROPERTY OF THE OUTSIDE WORLD, independent of the player.
Of course, relaxation may RESULT from thinking of slow movement. But very often, muscular opposition may be needed in order to provide an appropriate fast finger movement, and if that opposition isn't present at the required moment, the movement won't be successful.
There is an analogy between this situation and the use of 'support' in blowing the clarinet. Clearly, the use of support ties up energy in muscular opposition; so you don't want to OVERsupport.
But the truth is that some passages require a high degree of support, whereas some are better played without much support.
The blanket instruction to 'play with fingers relaxed' corresponds to the blanket instruction, 'play without support'. Therefore, it fails in the same way.
Tony
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2008-09-04 23:08
Okay, I'll never post again (kidding, of course). But when someone of Mr. Pay's stature responds to a post I started...well, guess it doesn't get any better than this. I have not had time to digest and absorb all his words of wisdom...and I hope I can do that...but I certainly do intend to try. I feel that I just had a free lesson from one of the greats.
With that said, I also intend to try and understand what others have said regarding finger height. I already have a better feel (pardon the implied pun) for the subject than I had. Almost every day I gain some new information from this forum, and I am so glad I found it.
CarlT
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2008-09-05 00:08
personally I was taught (several decades ago now) to keep finger movement at a minimal ... so it is fairly entrenched in my hand movement for both sax (fingers stay on the touches) and clarinet (fingers stay about the same height as if it was a sax key. Even on a sax LH table keys my finger has minimal movement.
I was told that basically (which excudes all the talk about dynamics of it) that if you move the finger at the same speed .. and one has to move 1/2 inch and the other a ful inch .. well, it kinda goes without saying that the smaller distance will get covered more quickly. of course alot of assumptions there as stated above such as smoothness and all physical dynamics.
but it basically all comes down to how good your technical playing is and whether you can play the "part" or not, not whether your fingers are properly placed by height; flailing around or not.
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-09-05 00:31
Tony Pay wrote:
<<But if you practise using slow finger movements, then it is immediately obvious where that doesn't work at a particular point. Then, 'fast' overrides 'slow' in a much more natural way.
That's because the fast/slow requirement is an OBJECTIVE PROPERTY OF THE OUTSIDE WORLD, independent of the player.>>
I think I see what you're saying. Finger speed is an easier "variable" to control because it's more readily observable. If you back off on finger speed, your fingers need less deceleration (and therefore less opposing force--and less tension) in order to maintain control.
But because finger speed is easier to control, it's also more obvious when slow fingers simply won't work, so you'll also know when it is you have to fall back on higher acceleration/higher force/higher tension movements instead. (As opposed to beating your head into the wall in a futile attempt to get yourself to relax during a finger movement that has to be done quickly--and thus with tension--in order to work).
I like this way of thinking about it! I think I'm going to go practice now!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-09-05 08:54
>> I agree with Gordon (NZ) that it takes little, if any, more time to
>> tap down from 1 or even 2 inches height, than it does for 1/2".
That's not exactly what gordon said, and I think you are possibly exaggerating. I just tried tapping on a table (first finger) and my speed from about 5cm (appriox. two inches) was almost twice as slow as from about 1cm (approx. 2/5 of an inch, in case it matters).
I just tried a C to Bb trill (in the low register). My finger was probably only a few mm over the ring. A similar C to B is the same, and also A to G, with the ring not coming up but the finger at about the same height comparing with the tone hole. I tried the same trills with fingers lifting about 2cm over the tone hole and it was already slower, and with 5cm MUCH slower.
Then I played the beginning of the F major scale (in the low register) from F to C (right hand only). I played it naturally and noticed the fingers gradually becoming higher over the tone hole, with the finger before the pinky (don't know the name in English) is a few cms over the hole, maybe even 4cm or 5cm. My first finger was also higher than it was in the trill.
Then I played these notes the fastest possible, like a 'swish' (if that's the correct word for it), and it was not a problem with these heights, and feel natural. Then I tried keeping my fingers low. It was the same, except it felt worse. In this situation the finger heights obviously didn't matter at all to how the notes sounded but did for the feeling when playing them (for me). So in this situation I would "choose" higher fingers or more accurately, choose everything else and let the height of the fingers "be".
I wouldn't say that the height of fingers should necessarily be different depeneding on the situation. I think it simply will be different, depending on the finger, and what comes before and after.
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2008-09-05 13:25
Clarnibass, you're right that Gordon didn't say 1 to 2 inches; I believe he was comparing 2 cm to 2 mm with his table tapping test. My point should have been that for his tapping test, I believe he could do it faster for his greater test height than his lesser test height.
I should have said that I tried the table tapping test from about an inch, or two, compared to about the 1/2" my teacher told me to strive for, and my tapping, depending on the particular finger, was about as fast, if not faster, tapping from the greater height as from the lesser height.
I was surprised though, that my experiment with my right hand index finger was slower than my right hand middle finger by a significant amount regardless of the test height. I used the middle finger for my tapping-the-table experiment simply because it was faster at any height than the index finger (and the other fingers, too, for that matter). My middle finger is faster than the rest, but that could be just me, and not the same for everyone else.
It seems to me though if (and this is a big IF) there is a difference in speed between one finger and another for most players, the general finger height is somewhat insignificant and overshadowed by the slower fingers' speed regardless of what finger height is used (I hope I'm making sense).
If I were planning a career in orchestral music, perhaps I should try to keep my fingers as close as possible to the tone holes and still make good tones, but since my personal goal is to be able to play in the town ww and brass band (not a lofty goal by any stretch I suppose), I believe, just for me, that my flailing fingers won't matter "a hill of beans" as they say here in East Tennessee, so long as I can hit the proper notes in a timely manner and have good tone in doing so.
Just my $.02 worth.
CarlT
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-09-05 14:14
CarlT wrote:
>> I have not had time to digest and absorb all his words of wisdom...and I hope I can do that...but I certainly do intend to try.>>
On the whole (although it's nice to be praised;-) I preferred your previous formulation:
>> Could this be another thing of "whatever works"?>>
...which captures the situation better.
See, I only made up the bit about slow fingers in response to the people who say that you should keep your fingers always close to the holes. (I need to tell you that, because otherwise I might be in danger of contributing to 'Legendary Teacher Syndrome' myself; and I abhor 'Legendary Teacher Syndrome;-)
The idea was to say something to put the ball in the player's court; something that requires you to examine in detail what occurs as you play, rather than being an instruction to follow blindly.
But still, playing with slow fingers is only one of the (many) approaches that may be helpful in overcoming a particular technical difficulty. It makes more sense than 'close fingers' for the reasons I outlined, but I'd be lying if I told you that it is the BASIS of how I practise.
What's much more generally important is to approach a difficulty with an open mind, open ears and open tactile channels (you pay attention to what you FEEL). It's also a great help to have open visual channels too -- in other words, look at what you're doing in a mirror.
For example, though I posted in the other thread:
C o o o / o o o
C# o x x / x x o
D o x x / x o o
D# o x x / x o o plus B sliver key
E o x x / o o o
F o x x / o o o plus LH C# key
F# o x o / o o o
G o x o / x o o
G# o x x / x x x plus RH F# key
A o x x / o o o
A# x x x / x x x plus LH F key and RH Ab key
B x x o / x x o plus LH F key and RH Ab key
C x o o / x o o plus LH F key and RH Ab key
...as a solution to the ascending scale, I found by looking in a mirror that:
C o o o / o o o
C# o x x / x x o
D o x x / x o o
D# o x x / x o o plus B sliver key
E o x x / o o o
F o x x / o o o plus LH C# key
F# o x o / o o o
G o x x / x o o
G# o x x / x x x plus RH F# key
A o x x / o o o
A# x x x / x x x plus LH F key and RH Ab key
B x x o / x x o plus LH F key and RH Ab key
C x o o / x o o plus LH F key and RH Ab key
...is better (the change is in the fingering for G), because it puts that always lazy LH3 down at the beginning of the second group, ie more securely.
Another possibility would be to use the previously discarded fingering for G and regroup -- after all, adding the RH Eb trill key is so well-known and practised:
C o o o / o o o
C# o x x / x x o
D o x x / x o o
D# o x x / x o o plus B sliver key
E o x x / o o o
F o x x / o o o plus LH C# key
F# o x o / o o o
G o x o / o o o plus RH Eb trill key
G# o x x / x x x plus RH F# key
A o x x / o o o
A# x x x / x x x plus LH F key and RH Ab key
B x x o / x x o plus LH F key and RH Ab key
C x o o / x o o plus LH F key and RH Ab key
...because then you can have the first group as one big 'swish' (thanks, Nitai!-) and the two sudden switches to lower partials (overblown F# and Ab) again at the beginning of groups (the two final ones beginning G# and A#.)
And in fact, I think this final one is the best for me.
So how you IMAGINE the run is important; and you're not going to find instructions on how to do that from any legendary teacher. If there is any delight in practising, it's in solving these little problems for ourselves.
Tony
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2008-09-05 14:57
Mr. Pay. I'm putting your posts in my "Favorites" for future reference.
Although I read your posts (and I include other threads such as your views on "support/breath control", etc.) with much interest and desire to better myself, I doubt if I'm yet capable (after only 5 months of lessons and practice) of fully grasping the impact of your words of wisdom, especially the fingerings you have provided, as well as your thoughts on "support".
I will work on that though, for I believe I will reach that point, at least to be able to take more advantage of your teachings. I do try and read everything I can get my hands on in order to possibly make me a better player (Keith Stein, David Pino, et al). Although my goal is just to be able to play in the local town band, I still would like to be the best clarinetist in that band.
Thank you, Sir.
CarlT
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-09-05 17:50
CarlT, I wasn't arhuing with you, and I hope it didn't sound like that. I was trying to help to understand why general advice like "keep your fingers low" could be a bit silly, and explain how it depends the finger height depends on other things other than itself.
It's possible that a beginning student doesn't have a sernse of what is "natural" but IMO it's better to explain the important that cause finger heights to be the way they "shoulod" be as opposed to concentrate on the heights themselves. I just don't think saying something like "keep your fingers about 1/2 of an inch from the keys" is going to help much if at all.
Re the speed and height, you could also notice the speed depends on other things. For example if I put all my fingers on the table and tap with my first finger, regardless of its height, it's not as fast as if I also lift my middle finger and let it move naturally with the first finger, slightly above it, so it doesn't touch the table too.
>> If I were planning a career in orchestral music, perhaps I should try
>> to keep my fingers as close as possible to the tone holes and still
>> make good tones, but since my personal goal is to be able to play in...
I don't understand this. Keeping the fingers as close as possible will not make someone play better, and since the playing in terms of the notes and speed of orchestral playing is not different at all from most other types of playing.
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2008-09-05 19:06
Clarnibass, no offense taken. I know that you (and others) are only trying to help us beginners, and I do appreciate that. I know I have some pre-conceived notions about clarinet playing that don't (and some of my ideas shouldn't) make sense to you much better, more experienced players.
What you say makes good sense even to a beginner like me. I will try to learn from you. I believe that I will make some effort to keep unused fingers a reasonable distance from the keys, not worrying so much about exact height, but also not to the expense of allowing everything else go. I believe fingering, like other beginner hardships, will become easier with time (and good practice).
BTW you're right about the fingers being able to move faster when all are "off the table", as opposed to when one, or more, are "on the table". I tried that myself after you brought that up. That in itself is interesting.
This whole "fingering" thing is one big area that I wouldn't have thought so much about before really getting into the clarinet. I learned typing as a Junior in H. S., and I would've thought (before) that learning fingering for clarinet shouldn't be much harder than learning to type. I believe I might have been wrong!
CarlT
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-09-05 19:25
Tony -
I wanted to weigh in with yet another possibility for the chromatic run, using a (well-known) alternative fingering for the G#,
You had previously suggested, and most recently favored:
C o o o / o o o
C# o x x / x x o
D o x x / x o o
D# o x x / x o o plus B sliver key
E o x x / o o o
F o x x / o o o plus LH C# key
F# o x o / o o o
G o x o / o o o plus RH Eb trill key
G# o x x / x x x plus RH F# key
A o x x / o o o
A# x x x / x x x plus LH F key and RH Ab key
B x x o / x x o plus LH F key and RH Ab key
C x o o / x o o plus LH F key and RH Ab key
I would submit to change the G# fingering to:
G# o o o / o o o plus RH Eb trill key
and then finishing the run as you suggest:
A o x x / o o o
A# x x x / x x x plus LH F key and RH Ab key
B x x o / x x o plus LH F key and RH Ab key
C x o o / x o o plus LH F key and RH Ab key
This would create a long continuous "swish" up to the G#, and then a connecting fingering for the A, and then a last "swish" up to the final 3 notes (A#, B, C)
Agreed that there are a number of ways to finger and think of this run, but I've always found this pattern (for me) to be the most finger friendly and logical.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-09-05 19:34
You can also do:
F o x x / o o o plus LH C# key
F# o x x / o o o plus LH C# key and RH Eb trill key
G o x o / o o o plus LH C# key and RH Eb trill key
G# o o o / o o o plus LH C# key and RH Eb trill key
and then finish the run from A as above.
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Author: marshall
Date: 2008-09-06 07:20
I've found that the F# o x o / o o o fingering needs the RH sliver key (B/F#) or it's way too flat.
I also tend to use G# o x x / x o x plus LH F# key. I find it's more in tune and easier to control than G# o x x / x x x (on my instrument anyway). Also, I tend to use the LH F# as opposed to the right hand F#, because it leaves you open for long F# (x x o / x x x plus Ab/Eb).
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-09-06 10:04
GBK wrote:
>> I would submit to change the G# fingering to:
G# o o o / o o o plus RH Eb trill key>>
Yes, good idea. I find the downward double switch of partial from that G# through A and A# less tractable at high speed, but perhaps that's a matter of practice and habituation as you point out.
mrn wrote:
>> You can also do:
F o x x / o o o plus LH C# key
F# o x x / o o o plus LH C# key and RH Eb trill key
G o x o / o o o plus LH C# key and RH Eb trill key
G# o o o / o o o plus LH C# key and RH Eb trill key
and then finish the run from A as above.>>
That works as well, though I find keeping the LH C# key on for G too unnatural.
marshall wrote:
>> I've found that the F# o x o / o o o fingering needs the RH sliver key (B/F#) or it's way too flat. I also tend to use...[etc]>>
It's a good idea to take into account the context in which posts are made. We were talking about how to approach the task of playing a very fast chromatic scale in the altissimo register, in which small intonation defects defer to speed of execution.
If you can include adding the RH sliver key to F# in such a situation (plus your other suggestions) you're a better player than I am.
Tony
Post Edited (2008-09-06 11:08)
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