 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinettefaerie
Date: 2008-09-01 21:04
I've got an R13 Buffet already. It is old (made in 1963), but it plays very well, and there aren't really any problems with it.
But...
I've been wanting to look into buying either the R13 Prestige (which I've heard very good things about, but will require an arm and leg to purchase)
or the Buffet Festival model. This is my senior year in high school, and I want to do everything I can to be able to audition well for the All-District and All-State auditions.
My question is this...
Is there a big enough difference between the original R13 clarinets and the Prestige/Festival clarinets that it would even be worth the investment?
I have played on a new R13 in 2007, and I didn't like it as much as mine, tee-hee; the tone was rather bright and keywork didn't move as fluid-ly as mine.
I just want to know if it can improve my tone enough that it could be the thing that gets me into the honors band at All-State this year.
Post Edited (2008-09-01 22:02)
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-09-01 21:12
If you go through maybe 50 R-13 pairs you could find a set as good as R-13 Prestige. I would say that although I play the Festival that there is more quality difference between R-13 Prestige and Tosca than between R-13 and R-13 Prestige.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-09-01 21:19
clarinettefaerie wrote:
> I've got an R13 Buffet already. It is old (made in 1963), but
> it plays very well, and there aren't really any problems with
> it.
...
> I just want to know if it can improve my tone enough that it
> could be the thing that gets me into the honors band at
> All-State this year.
In a word, no. Plenty of people play their entire lives on good R-13s of various ages, both in school and professionally.
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-09-01 21:38
I know of many people who make all-state on intermediate instruments... selmers and e11s for example.
If the R13 has no problems and sounds good, you shouldn't have to worry about having to buy a new instrument.
If money isn't an option and you plan to continue music in college and as a career, then the R13 Prestige would be my choice. I love the R13 Prestige, more so than the Tosca. Sure, plenty of people spend their entire careers on R13s and there is no problem with that. It works for them, but I believe, and this is my opinion, that a great instrument makes things a whole lot easier to accomplish. Just be sure you are getting the best for your money.
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
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Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2008-09-01 22:06
You don't need to get an R13 Prestige for all state. An R13 is suffice. If you don't have a good set up already, invest in one. Invest in a private teacher if you don't have one. This will pay off alot more than fancy equipment. And, tone isn't everything. People want (at least where I'm from) rhythmic accuracy and musical playing, not someone with a gorgeous tone that plays like a robot. You have to stand out. Heck, the first chair all state clarinet player, his tone wasn't that great, but BOY could he make music.
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Author: Joseph Brenner, Jr.
Date: 2008-09-01 22:08
I concur with Mark Charette's point, but would add:
Your R13 probably came from good stock. If your clarinet is out of tune or you bought it "as is", you may consider sending it to any of the handful of expert craftsmen (some of whom post on this board), to achieve optimal tuning and functioning. My 1961 R13, born again by Hans Moennig, did not lose its character or integrity, and I would bet the ranch on it as opposed to any new instrument right out of the box. You might also consider adjusting the variables of mouthpiece, reed, ligature, barrel (but play with only one variable at a time). If your hardware is fine, how good is your embouchure and how good is your breath support? Best wishes.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-09-01 22:11
I own an R13 from about 1965 and have played it since then. I finally replaced it two years ago with a Selmer Signature because I tried nearly every Buffet I could lay my hands on over a ten year period looking for something better. I did change the bell and barrel to the Backun's and that made it even better so it was even more difficult to find a better Buffet. If the instrument is in good condition I’d suggest that your mouthpiece would make a much larger difference to your tone than any clarinet will. If you’re completely satisfied with your mouthpiece you might want to try several different brands of barrels to see if any one makes enough difference to purchase one. The bell can also make a difference but not as much as a barrel. Either one will not make as much a difference as having the right mouthpiece for you, not the right one for someone else, but for you. Try before you buy. ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457 Listen to a little Mozart
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Author: clarinettefaerie
Date: 2008-09-01 22:22
Okay, to clarify:
There isn't really anything wrong with it, and I don't really need a new clarinet. I just got it looked over and put into playing condition by a wonderful repairman, so that's not an issue. I've got a magnificent mouthpiece (The Roger Garrett K mouthpiece: fashioned after the Kasper Mouthpieces) and that has helped immensely. I'm planning on buying a Buffet Chadash barrel this November as well.
I'm just a bit curious is all.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-09-01 23:35
Mark Charette wrote:
> clarinettefaerie wrote:
>
> > I've got an R13 Buffet already. It is old (made in 1963), but
> > it plays very well, and there aren't really any problems with
> > it.
> ...
> > I just want to know if it can improve my tone enough that it
> > could be the thing that gets me into the honors band at
> > All-State this year.
>
> In a word, no. Plenty of people play their entire lives on
> good R-13s of various ages, both in school and professionally.
Absolutely! One need only take a short look at the Buffet website (http://www.buffet-crampon.com) to see that many of the world's top players play on plain vanilla R13s (or plain vanilla RCs in Europe).
I knew somebody in HS (almost 20 years ago) who played on a prestige R13. It did not give her any kind of "edge" over the rest of us in terms of sound (in fact, the fact that it didn't made her the butt of a lot of jokes, unfortunately). The only real differences I saw between her instrument and my vanilla R13 were silver keys and a LH Eb lever, neither of which are worth the high price tag, IMHO. (personally, I prefer the look of the nickel keys, anyway)
When I made all-state and went to the state convention, I got to try out a bunch of different Buffets at their vendor booth, including their then-top-of-the-line model, which I think was called the "Elite." I really couldn't figure out what was so great about it, other than the price tag. Maybe that was due to the fact that I was just a 14-year-old kid who had a lot to learn about a lot of things, but in retrospect, I think it says something that they discontinued that model, but they still continue to make R13s. In fact, some people actually like the older R13s better, so the Buffet folks now make a "vintage" R13, which is supposed to be more like the R13s of yesteryear (but clearly priced like the R13s of tomorrow). If you already have a REAL vintage R13, though, and it's in good shape, why change?
Even if you don't like your tone, there are more effective ways to change the way you sound. In my experience, changing your mouthpiece will actually change your sound more dramatically than changing your instrument, and it's much, much cheaper. Even a really expensive mouthpiece is going to be cheaper than a new instrument. Changing reed brands/varieties can also make a difference, believe it or not. Vandoren 56 Rue Lepics sound (and feel) different from blue box Vandorens, for example (at least for me, they do).
Some people purchase aftermarket barrels and bells--I've never tried any, but you might find you like them (several people whose opinions I value like theirs). The latest thing seems to be using ringless barrels and bells like you see on a lot of German clarinets and some high-end French models. If you like the way you sound on one of these "luxury model" clarinets better than your R13, maybe you should try one or more of these aftermarket accessories and see what you think. It's still cheaper than a new instrument. Just make sure they have a decent return policy (same thing goes for mouthpieces). As with any equipment, your mileage may vary.
Keep in mind, though, that none of these things will be "the thing" that causes you to make state (or to make the all-state band you want to be in, as the case may be). It's not what equipment you have, but what you do with it that really matters!
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2008-09-02 00:16
I just don't think you NEED to buy one. I mean... seriously, you could use that money on things A LOT more important in the future. Use your imagination?
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Author: clarinettefaerie
Date: 2008-09-02 00:40
Wow, mrn.
Thank you very, very, very much! You are truly right about the whole equipment thing. Funny how that girl you were talking about did NOT have the "edge."-- There was a girl that graduated last year that had the Tosca clarinet and spent all this money on private lessons with a (jerk-ish) guy at a university, and she didn't even make 2nd part in the All-District band, while I, someone with verrry little money and few resources, made 2nd chair in the All-District band. (Seriously, I'm not trying to brag, lol. It's just ironic...) You are definitely right about the mouthpiece thing... For a while, my clarinet teacher was extremely frustrated with me because I had the clarinet, the embouchure (bad spelling, I know...), and the technique, but my tone was still really fuzzy. My sophomore year in HS, I didn't even make All-District because of that tone. My junior year, I changed mouthpieces, and suddenly, my tone was outstanding and I went to All-State. Lol, that still is very funny to me.
Well, I think that I'll stick with what I've got, which is of course a relief to my parents and my college fund, lol.
Like someone else said, I should find something else that I actually NEED.
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Author: marshall
Date: 2008-09-02 02:13
If you want a new instrument and you're strapped for cash...I'll buy that '63 from you.
:p
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2008-09-02 02:58
I agree with the advice that others gave. A good mouthpiece, reed, and ligature can make a world of difference.
Now, for the barrel part. If you and your teacher feel that your tone has a good "center" or focus to it, and if there are no intonation issues, I wouldn't bother buying a new barrel. For some clarinets, though (including many older ones), a new barrel can help to improve tone and intonation. It won't be a drastic change, but you'll notice it. Buffet Chadash barrels have an excellent reputation, and they're very popular. I wanted to buy one a few months ago, but all the dealers I contacted said they were on backorder. I ended up purchasing a Clark Fobes, and I've been very happy with it.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2008-09-02 03:18
I'm in total agreement with everyone else here vis-a-vis the R13 issue. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
You did make an interesting comment though on your ascendence into the All-State band. You mentioned your teacher's frustration with your sound despite your embouchure, etc. Maybe you could take some of the *saved* cash and shop around for another teacher. It seems to me that the teacher should have recognized that the mouthpiece *might* have been a component of the fuzzy sound...
(Disclaimer: I teach many 5-12th grade students, some of whom have fuzzy sounds. I haven't had a chance to find an absolutely *perfect* mouthpiece for each of them, sadly.)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-09-02 13:34
A man was walking through the countryside when he heard heard himself being hailed from above. He looked up to see another man in a low-flying balloon.
When the balloonist realized he had the walker's attention, he called out, "I'm lost. Can you tell me where I am?"
The man on the ground called back, "That's easy. You're in a balloon, 15 feet above the ground."
To which the balloonist replied, "You must be an accountant."
"How extraordinary," responded the man on the ground. "I certainly am an accountant. How did you know?"
"Because your information is absolutely precise and totally irrelevant?"
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2008-09-02 14:03)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-09-02 15:03
clarinettefaerie wrote:
> Thank you very, very, very much!
You're very welcome!
> the embouchure (bad spelling, I know...)
No, good spelling! (comes from "bouche," the French word for mouth)
> My sophomore year in HS, I didn't even make All-District because of that
> tone. My junior year, I changed mouthpieces, and suddenly, my tone was
> outstanding and I went to All-State. Lol, that still is very funny to me.
When it comes to mouthpieces, everybody's different. My teacher had a big bag of mouthpieces, and she had me try different ones until I found something that worked well for me. I learned from reading this board that Leon Russianoff (the legendary teacher who taught Stanley Drucker, Charles Neidich, and a lot of other great players) did this, too.
A fuzzy tone could also be the result of playing on reeds that are too hard. One thing that I didn't know when I was in HS was that different mouthpieces require different strengths of reeds. In general, mouthpieces with "open" facings require softer reeds than those with "closed" facings. Anyone will sound fuzzy if their reeds are too hard for the mouthpiece, and A LOT of folks play on reeds that are too hard for their setup.
Along the lines of what Katrina mentioned about shopping around for a teacher, even if you don't change teachers, you might look into taking a one-time lesson or a couple of lessons with a symphony player or clarinet professor before you have to try out for state (sort of like a private master class). Sometimes it's nice to get a different perspective on things, and it's a great way to pick up new skills.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-09-02 16:11
I've read Buffet's advertising about using "heartwood" but I don't necesarily believe that it means anything. And if the heartwood is so good then why use tenon caps. A professor I had once said that the best thing about accountants is that they don't multiply.....(or was it procreate!).
Bob Draznik
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2008-09-02 18:17
Sorry...I wrote "shop around for a teacher" but what I meant was what mrn mentioned. Take a lesson or two from various other teachers with the money you'd save in not buying a new clarinet.
I really shouldn't post after a 9 hour car drive...
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Author: clarinettefaerie
Date: 2008-09-03 02:59
To mrn: I was playing on Vandoren V12 2.5 reeds (that really was not the problem), but it was so strange, because the mouthpiece that came with my Buffet was an HS*, but it was so difficult to play on that I used the crappy plastic mouthpiece that came with my other clarinet. It was disgustingly bright and nasty, and that's where it got me. :(
What was so upsetting to me about that whole deal was that one of my teacher's other students got to use my teacher's mouthpiece (the Kasper), and she was the same age as me, not any better with technique, but made 1st part. Grr, that still makes me angry. :P
I should have realized that my mouthpiece, being fashioned after the Kasper, WOULD make that much difference.
With what a few other people have been saying, I've tried once to go to Professor Garrett (the maker of my mouthpiece, for goodness' sake...) at Illinois Wesleyan. He was a serious jerk and was saying that my embouchure was completely wrong and that he couldn't believe where I had gotten to with THAT embouchure. :( So, that experience makes me very wary of other teachers. And, I think that I'm just partial to my clarinet teacher, lol.
With what someone was saying about the difference between the R13's and Prestiges, is there any definite difference in TONE due to the difference in wood/stain/tendon caps?
Oh, and thanks for the spelling thing for "embouchure" mrn-- I, of all people, should know that about the french word for mouth, lol. I just completed French IV!
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2008-09-03 03:39
You can always pick something up from anyone, even if they don't "like" something about your playing. Don't take things that personally, even though that's really tough. Put any criticisms and *how they're said* aside into the "Well, I'll have to think about that" file. See what you can learn from the person. Put their manner of speaking aside and hear what they're saying behind that...
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-09-03 05:53
<<To mrn: I was playing on Vandoren V12 2.5 reeds (that really was not the problem), but it was so strange, because the mouthpiece that came with my Buffet was an HS*, but it was so difficult to play on that I used the crappy plastic mouthpiece that came with my other clarinet.>>
My first clarinet was an early 1950's Leblanc (a Dynamique), and it came with an HS* mouthpiece, too. It makes you wonder if the HS* was sort of the 5RV Lyre of its day. After about a year of playing, my teacher helped me pick out a new mouthpiece (which ended up being a Gigliotti P34).
<<I should have realized that my mouthpiece, being fashioned after the Kasper, WOULD make that much difference.>>
Perhaps...But don't forget that it's really the combination of you and the mouthpiece (and the reed) that makes the difference. What's good for one person may not be as good for somebody else.
<<He was a serious jerk and was saying that my embouchure was completely wrong and that he couldn't believe where I had gotten to with THAT embouchure. :( So, that experience makes me very wary of other teachers. And, I think that I'm just partial to my clarinet teacher, lol.>>
There are some teachers out there who have a "my way or the highway" or "one size fits all" attitude, but many do not. And there are advocates on just about every side of an issue--on just the embouchure issue there's double lip vs. single lip, corners in vs. corners out, firm bottom lip v. cushiony bottom lip, etc. I have no doubt there is somebody out there who thinks my embouchure is completely wrong, too.
When I was in HS, I was told by one player/director (who studied with a guy who studied with Bonade) that my playing style was "too Germanic" (whatever that means--I'm still trying to figure that one out). On the other hand, one of the nicest compliments anyone ever gave me about my playing came from a guy who studied with Marcellus (one of Bonade's most prominent students), so even people from the same "school of playing" can have very different opinions about your playing. The trick, as Katrina put it so well, is to pick up what you can and file the rest for future reference. Sometimes you can learn a lot even from people you disagree with. For instance, before I had been told I was "too Germanic," about all I knew about Daniel Bonade was that his ligature wouldn't fit right on my mouthpiece!
And even a highly revered teacher like Daniel Bonade doesn't always have the last word on things. I remember reading some quote (I think it was from Anthony Gigliotti) to the effect that Bonade would have had a heart attack if he knew what kind of reed/mouthpiece setup many of his prominent students (such as Gigliotti) had adopted--if I remember correctly, Gigliotti was a fan of hard reeds and close, long facing mouthpieces, while Bonade played on very soft reeds and his own "medium" faced mouthpiece (which he apparently wanted all his students to use). I know at least one guy on here studied with Gigliotti and another I know studied with Marcellus, so one or both of them probably know what I'm talking about and can tell the story better.
But I can also relate to being partial to one's own teacher. I really liked mine. And good ones like her are not that easy to find!
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2008-09-04 17:35
I agree with others that you would not improve your tone by buying another instrument. I also own a Buffet R-13 and have owned both the Prestige and the Festivals. The Prestige I found to be a wonderful instrument, however a bit stuffy. In both cases I went back to the old reliable R-13 and intend to stick to it for the duration of years I may play. I've played clarinet for 48 years now and have played about everything out there---surely missing a few, but know enough about playing around the world with different orchestras and demanding situations to say you can't go wrong with the R-13. And, if it's performing well for you you shouldn't worry about it. It certainly will perform well for all auditions you're goin g to have in the near future. You've obviously taken good care of it, and that's important.
I've had more success in improving my tone with my mouthpieces than any instrument brand or type. But, that's another topic. Lots about mouthpieces already on this board. Read some of them.
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