 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: IanH
Date: 2008-07-23 08:28
Hi all
I acquired a pair of these vintage clarinets a few years back and have done nothing with them. They're marked 'approved by Chas Draper' and 'Louis & Cl Chelsea London' and are early serial numbers 63 and 64. Very little info on the 'net. Anyone know anything about them? Louis and co were oboe makers about a century ago.
Cheers. Ian.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-07-23 09:49
Louis 'Chas Draper' models are incredible clarinets built between WWI and WWII, and rivalled the B&H 1010, though production of Louis instruments was very low in comparison. Louis instruments are all entirely hand-built and the workmanship is exquisite. They were based on the Martel clarinets (and their oboes were based on Loree).
The few I've seen listed on eBay (usually single Bb) have gone for a fair amount and have attracted a great deal of bidders (including myself!), but as you have a set with consecutive serial numbers, they're something special and well worth having restored into full playing order by a reputable tech. I've rebuilt sets of Louis oboes and cors (again with consecutive serial numbers) and these were fantastic instruments to work on and they played beautifully.
When Howarth took over where Louis left off, they made some clarinets (the NS1) which were probably identical to the Chas Draper model (though the early Howarth clarinets had domed pad cups with thick key arms like oboes). A pricelist of the time (1948-1949) offered several keywork options in addition to the standard 17/6, such as forked Bb, articulated G# and LH Ab/Eb, so maybe Louis clarinets also had these options too. Though Howarth clarinet production stopped sometime in the '50s and only resumed in the early '90s with a completely new model - the S1.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-07-23 10:49
Alan Hacker uses Louis clarinets in Bb and A on three tracks of his CD "Clarinet Collection". It's currently unavailable on UK Amazon, but you might be able to get a copy from Finchcocks.
The sleeve notes don't seem to agree with information on this site, nor elsewhere on the web.
IanH, and http://en.allexperts.com/q/Oboe-2282/2008/5/Louis-Oboe.htm, tell us that Louis of London were making oboes before WWI.
But Hacker's notes explain that Draper set up the company in London in 1923, giving it a French name because he thought that sounded better. No mention of them making oboes.
I wonder whether the pre-WWI Louis of oboes and the post-WWI Louis of clarinets are actually the same company; both were based in Chelsea, but maybe Draper just borrowed the name of a defunct company.
.........
Hacker's instruments were built at A=435, but have been sharpened to A=440.
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Author: spage
Date: 2008-07-23 14:41
Langwill gives (excerpted) "Louis Musical Instrument Co. WW1 fl London 1923-p1940" and "1923 established with clarinettist Charles Draper [...] as director". Chris P's noted what firms they modelled clarinets and oboes on, Langwill notes "also flute, bassoon, tabor pipe". Bought by Rudall Carte & Co (who were themselves bought by Boosey & Hawkes in 1943/44), "most of the clarinets bore mark 'approved by Chas. Draper'".
I have recently acquired a non-matched pair, the Bb does not carry the mark (s/n 603) the A does (s/n 493). The Bb has a wider bore than the A. Being later instruments than IanH's they are "Louis & Co // Makers // London". Both are standard 17/6. They have their own mouthpieces (marked B and A) and I also have a third, also Louis & Co., m'piece which I am given to understand belonged to Alan Hacker when he had his pair, which I am also given to understand were stolen when he was abroad at some point (I can't remember if I was told when). They are indeed lovely instruments (as Chris P says, the workmanship is exquisite) and fairly rare (IIRC) amongst Boehm instruments of that (any) age, have rollers on the RH Ab/Eb and F/C keys.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-07-23 15:31
After B&H acquired the name Louis, it was found on pro-level Malerne instruments (engraved with 'Louis Artist') and also student instruments such as the Louis LM5 oboes which were made by Prestini or Orsi. The Rudall Carte name found it's way onto Taiwanese flutes, Czech saxes and bassoons as well as student clarinets built in the B&H factory.
Pro Louis instruments (as the Louis company proper only made pro quality woodwinds) will have 'London' or 'Chelsea' on them, and whereas the clarinets will have 'Chas Draper Model' or 'approved by Chas. Draper', some of their oboes (d'amores and cors) may have 'Halstead Model', so two of the main London players of the time were inextricably linked with the Louis company.
More often than not, I've seen Louis oboes turn up in their original cases with the original reedcase and screwdriver, like a time capsule. If you happen to have a Loree oboe from the '20s, a Louis oboe from the '30s and a Howarth oboe from the late '40s, you can see the similarities between them all, and how they've developed from the Loree design.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: IanH
Date: 2008-07-23 19:47
Thanks to all for the info. Great to find so many experts out there! I'd also found out the story about Louis sounding French like 'Loree'. Interesting they look like 10-10s with the smooth barrel rings. I played 10-10s until 1976. Now I play on 1967 R13s that turned up on someone's shelf unplayed for years. Now, the next question: Where do I go from here? First of all I should explain that I'm a professional clarinet player here in Durban South Africa, and in my spare time repair and restore instruments, so I'm easily capable of repadding these clarinets myself. However, I'm always too busy making a living repairing for customers to fix my own instruments! I also arrange music, teach, organise concert tours etc etc....
The instruments themselves are in very good shape. They must have been played until fairly recently as the pads are quite new, but I think they weren't overhauled very well so there are weak springs and leaks. Also they are very dry. There are two barrels, one short, and both are cracked. There's an original Louis mouthpiece too. The case is an old, probably original, Paxman 'box' style case.
[ Snipped - GBK ]
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Author: IanH
Date: 2008-07-23 21:22
Hi All
Thanks again for all your input guys. Can you contact me off the list in future so I can ask questions that are not allowed on the list? If anyone else has more info on the history then that's ok. Many thanks.
IanH.
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Author: spage
Date: 2008-07-24 08:59
Thanks Chris! I shall squirrel that additional information about them!
So much to learn, so little time
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Author: IanH
Date: 2008-07-26 07:56
Hi spage. These Louis clars don't have rollers by the way. Probably too early (double digit serial numbers). Any chance you can contact me personally so I can discuss further off the list? IanH.
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Author: Chiron
Date: 2008-08-30 14:47
I have a pair of these instruments, numbered 96 and 97, which I inherited in the late 1970s from an older cousin who had been by all accounts a brilliant amateur player (and had corresponded with, among others, Geoffrey Rendall and Lindsay Langwill, who sent him early drafts of some of his writings which I still have), but who sadly suffered a brain tumour in about 1950 which, though successfully operated on, left him brain damaged and unable any longer to play. Hence, apart from a brief period after acquiring them when I tried to learn the instrument, frustrated and eventually terminated by the demands of a busy professional life, they have languished unplayed for over 55 years. Now in retirement (and also dotage) I am starting again to try to learn to play them. Incidentally, unlike IanH's, they do have the rollers to the r.h. G#D# and FC keys.
My conjecture is that my cousin first acquired them in or about 1930, but this could well be years out. Does anybody have any Louis dating information? If I am right, it means that they were played (and from my cousin's music library, very regularly played) for about 20 years.
When I first acquired them I had them looked at by Geoffrey Acton at Howarths, and he did some work to them, although I have do not recall exactly what. I do remember that he gave me a bill for £50, but he certainly did not carry out a full overhaul since most of the joint corks were, and have since remained, quite loose. Apart from that they do seem to my inexpert eye and playing to be in beautiful condition. With them are their two original Louis mouthpieces, one cylindrical and one conical; their intonation is amazing (and far better than my late 1960s R13), and their tone smooth and creamy.
It is regrettable that there seems so little information available about the Louis company. It certainly seems that it was the same company which made both the clarinets and the oboes, and that NorbertTheParrot's suggestion that the oboe company was functioning before WWI is wrong; see the very interesting interview of 1982 between Nora Post and Nigel Clark, director of Howarths, available on internet via "Louis Oboes". Chris P, can you provide any further information? I would love to hear from you.
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Author: kenb
Date: 2008-08-31 00:59
There's a Louis & Co Bb clarinet (with rollers) pictured on page 487 of the Shackleton Collection catalogue. It lists the serial no as 120 and the date as 'circa 1923'.
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Author: IanH
Date: 2008-08-31 10:04
Thanks for the new info on Louis. I presume they must have started putting rollers on the keys just after mine were made. I've contacted Edinburgh University to see if they'd like to add these to their collection.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-08-31 15:18
Hi Peter,
My knowledge of Louis is pretty vague, only going on from what I've heard and from what little is written about them which is a shame as they were a significant British company making quality instruments in between the wars.
Though it was fortunate that former Louis employees set up T.W. Howarth in the late '40s to keep the line going. I would love to see an early Howarth clarinet from this time to see how they compare to Louis ones, though they seem to be even more scarce than Louis clarinets which aren't exactly plentiful.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chiron
Date: 2008-08-31 15:29
IanH - why do you want to dispose of your Louis clarinets? If they are anything like mine, they are superb instruments, and well worth that little extra midnight oil which needs expending on putting them into first class playing order, which is within your capability. Keep them and play them - you wont regret it!
kenb - many thanks for the information. Actually on going to the Shackleton catalogue on the web, I see that it lists 3 Louis instruments, though only the one numbered 120 is illustrateed, All three are said to be "circa 1923", which was actually the date when the Louis company appears to have started business, so that I dont think it can be right for the manufaccturing date of any of the 3 instruments listed. In my ignorance, I was not aware of the Shackleton colletion (although Sir Nicholas S. did look at my Louis instruments a couple of years before he died) and I am very grateful to be informed of it. What an incredible number of valuable instruments he appears to have collected! I look forward to further research.
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Author: Chiron
Date: 2008-08-31 16:32
Chris,
Many thanks for your post. What seems to me even more sad than the dearth of information about the Louis company is the fact that its clarinet making did not keep going despite the takeover of its technicians by Howarths in the 1940s. Yes - let's all keep our eyes open for any examples of Howarth clarinets from that era!
When Geoffrey Acton looked at my Louis clarinets, back in 1976 or thereabouts, he mentioned that a certain first clarinet in an English national orchestra, whom he named, had until recently played a pair of Louis. Sadly I was not paying much attention (I was totally ignorant of anything concerning the clarinet in those days), and have no recollection of to whom he was referring. Would you by any chance know?
I want to bring them one of these days to London to have them looked at by Jon Steward. Although I know that you are an oboe rather than a clarinet man, I have in the past year or two noticed your contributions to clarinet chat-sites, and would enjoy meeting you if I may. Are you usually at Howarths, or should I (assuming you would be willing to see me) make an appointment?
Best wishes, Peter
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-08-31 17:02
Hi Peter,
Do your Louis clarinets have 'Chas Draper' stamped on them? I'm not sure who would have been principal in the ENO back then, though it's nice to know they were being played by the top London players (who mostly played B&H 1010s).
I'm an outworker for the Howarth factory down in Worthing (although I live in Bognor which is 15 miles west of Worthing) and hardly ever go up to the London shop, though Jon Steward is much more of an authority on Louis clarinets, so I reckon you'll get tons more info from him.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: IanH
Date: 2008-08-31 19:48
Yes, thanks to Ken. I had no idea there was such a collection of old instruments. Hoping to be in Scotland next year so will try to see them. Having some trouble getting any reply on Louis clarinets from John Steward at Howarths by the way. Peter, I'm past the stage where I'll go onto anything but my 1967 R13s which are very special to me. The only reason I want to 'dispose' of these Louis instruments is because I'm unlikely to get around to repairing them with my busy lifestyle. Apart from cracked barrels they show no sign of wear and tear. Repadding would do it. Slightly off topic, I see your ISP is in Potters Bar. I was born and grew up in Watford where I started lessons with Georgina Dobree at the Watford School of Music. I also see you knew Geoff Acton in 1976. I played on 10-10s until that year when they were stolen shortly after I arrived in SA. He once said it was nice to know they could still make good 10-10s (1969 models) when he repaired mine. The A clarinet turned up in a Durban newspaper 22 years later by the way! I sold it to a gentleman in Grahamstown a few years later. IanH.
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Author: Chiron
Date: 2008-09-02 18:58
Chris,
Yes, my Louis instruments are both engraved "Approved by Chas Draper".
Sorry that I wont have the opportunity to meet you in London: I have always enjoyed your postings on Clarinet BBoard. But lets all look out for Howarth clarinets! Best wishes, Peter
kenworthybrowne@btinternet.com
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Author: Chiron
Date: 2008-09-02 19:30
Hi Ian,
I stil say keep your Louis instruments - and one day you will find the time to overhaul them. Meanwhile they will not deteriorate - and what fantastic clarinets they are! Mine show now sign at all of wear to the silver plating, which must be incredibly thick and infinitely superior to any plating which is applied today. And likewise the workmanship. Keep them; and if you dont have time to renovate them till then, they will wait for you. Wait for your retirement and then put them into ordr, play them, and love them!
Interesting that you were brought up in Watford. Actually I do not know why they have located my ISB (whatevfer that means - I have no idea) at Potters Bar: I left it blank not knowwing what any of those initials sood for. But actually I was born and bred in the north of Hertfordshire, 5 miles from Hitchin; and much later, when my father retired, we did live for a few years in Abbots Langley, not far from Watford.
If I could locate your mail address (everybody seems to know mine), I could send this to you by email and not bore everybody else on BBoard! with it!
Best wishes, and apologies to anybody who has unnecessarily read this and been bored stiff by it, Peter
kenworthybrowne@btinternet.com
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Author: IanH
Date: 2008-09-02 22:38
Hi Peter
Thanks for the advice. By all means contact me off list. I haven't hidden my email in my profile, so just click on my name in one of the messages and you'll find it. Actually I'll save you time: holloways@absamail.co.za
Cheers! Ian H.
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Author: Chiron
Date: 2008-09-06 16:37
Hi Chris,
A belated reply to your post of 31st August. Yes, my Louis clarinets are indeed inscribed "Approved by Chas Draper". I believe that it was he who finally overcame the reluctance of many English players to abandon the simple system and adopt the Boehm.
Just to put the record straight, whoever Geoffrey Acton was referring to back in the l970s as an orchestral clarinettist who had only recently ceased to play Louis instruments, it was not necessarily the principal in the ENO. I just recall that it was an orchestra of national standing: wish I could remember which orchestra it was.
Sorry I will not be able to see you in London. I have always found your contributions to the Bboard interesting.
kenworthybrowne@btinternet.com
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Author: nickma
Date: 2013-05-06 21:29
Sorry to resurrect this thread after 5 years, but any idea what matching serial number 965 would date a Louis clarinet to? Joints and bell are stamped Louis & Co., Chelsea, London. Tenon rings are of classic French ribbed design rather than the plain 1010 type tenon rings.
Many thanks, Nick
Nick
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2013-06-26 11:00
"Author: nickma (---.range86-148.btcentralplus.com - (British Telecommunications) London, H9 United Kingdom)
Date: 2013-05-06 21:29
Sorry to resurrect this thread after 5 years, but any idea what matching serial number 965 would date a Louis clarinet to? "
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I bought this Louis Bb clarinet on that auction site. It arrived today and is in excellent condition. The wood and keywork are in good order, the joints are good and all toneholes are sharp and unmarked. Intonation is very good throughout the range. For the price, 100 Pounds Sterling, it has to be the bargain of the year.
I recently looked at another Louis Bb in Sydney, but it was in a very sad state. Not much more than firewood and verdigris. The wood was dry and unrecoverable, with a crack in the upper joint. The seller wanted $A600 (400 Pounds Sterling, $US575).
Tony F.
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Author: IanH
Date: 2013-06-26 11:34
Hi. Sorry, but I sold my pair many years ago and haven't kept any records of info re Louis clarinets. I can't even remember how much they went for or who bought them in the end. I've been happy with my vintage 1967 Buffet clarinets for quite a few years though they aren't played much since I took early retirement from professional orchestral playing a year ago. Good luck.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-06-27 20:15
Did Louis ever make full Boehms? The early (and short-lived) Howarth NS1 clarinets from the late '40s were offered from the standard 17/6 Boehms up to 20/7 full Boehms - I've yet to see one of these clarinets!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-09-30 07:43
I mentioned earlier in this old thread that I'd bought a Louis Bb. As an update, after playing it a few times I put it aside until I had time to carry out some necessary regulation. Life got in the way and I've only recently found time to do it. I am amazed at the sheer quality of the instrument. Fit and finish are superb even after around 90 years, the wood is better than I've seen for years and it plays like a dream. Tuning with an M30/Rico Grand Concert 3 is as good as anything else I have and better than a goodish R13 I tried it against.
Tony F.
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