 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2008-07-02 14:59
i sent this question to my teacher but have not heard back from her yet and thought I would get some opinions from here...
I've been working hard on the Rose #16. When I get stuck at certain spots - I stop and work on just that place (measure). lets say the 10th measure. I keep working until I get it good and put it with Measure 9 until I can do 9 and 10 together. Once I can do that, I go back to the beginning and start again, but every time I come to the trouble spot I mess up again. Why is it I can play it alone or with the previous measure, but not when I start from the beginning? what should I do?
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2008-07-02 15:25
Maybe you need to work from the beginning to a couple of measures past the troube spot. Taking things out of context is good to clean stuff up but playing a piece as a whole requires a lot more stamina and concentration.
I would also say that you need to work on it in a different way then you have been. Sometimes great results happen when you make a problem spot harder than it actually is. Figure out exactly what is hard about the measure (finger cordination, breath support, rhythm, etc) and figure out a way to make it harder. Maybe play it faster by doubling a rhythm ( instead of 2 8ths for example, play 4 16th's). Sometimes we need to experiment like we are a scientist to learn things in music. It's really helpful to be curious. A lot of music making is a mental process more than a physical one. Many things can be fixed and improved just by being thoughtful and inquisitive away from the instrument.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-07-02 15:27
There are two things that I would suggest first:
You have already "built a bridge" between ms 9 & 10. Why not build a bigger one? Go back to ms 8 and put all three together...when that's great go all the way back.
Play from the beginning to the first note of ms. 11 SLOWER so that you can't make a mistake.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-07-02 15:39
Another thought: rhythmic variation.
Play ms. 9 & 10 with a dotted eighth-sixteenth rhythm.
Then sixteenth-dotted eighth.
Eighth-two sixteenth
Two sixteenth-eighth
Play with the metronome and be exacting in your rhythm and finger coordination.
Then play it as written and see where you are.
good luck!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-07-02 15:50
The Rule of 10
1. If you can't play the passage by itself 10 times in a row perfectly, your fingers and brain are not yet sufficiently trained and you need additional work.
2. If you can't play the passage in context, with the measures preceeding and after, 10 times in a row perfectly, your fingers and brain are not yet sufficiently trained and you need additional work.
Both of the above must be accomplished...GBK
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2008-07-02 16:07
There's a lot to be said for playing the whole phrase a large number of times, starting very slowly and getting gradually up to speed, kind of like a Sailors' Hornpipe.
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-07-02 16:22
Rose etude no. 16... the adagio cantabile right? Not one of the studies?
If this is infact the above mentioned etude, I know this one very well and it's one of my favorites.
The most important thing in this peace is a clear steady beat, so that you are giving all notes their intended value. It is very easy to short-change note values in this piece and others like it.
As suggested above, you should work on adding more measures around your prolem area such as 5-10 and all the way to 15 so that there is little wory in that section because you know the problem area and you can focus on it.
Another thing that will help you is to always keep your eyes scanning ahead of what you're actually playing. By doing this your fingers already know where to go when you get to trouble spots and you won't be surprised and make a mistake. It's not fool-proof but it works pretty well.
I was origonaly told to use it just for sight-reading (where it is a godsend), but I apllied it to music I know just to see if it woud help and it really does.
If you are using the artistic studies book 1 be sure to look ahead to the next line while playing measure 10 so you aren't surprised.
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-07-02 16:35
Hello Ryder,
The 9th and 10th measures of Rose's Etude no 16 have a whole note and a half note in them...so I'm pretty sure Janlynn is talking about the Rose Studies no 16 (based on Ferling).
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-07-02 16:44
Just a reminder to all:
Exercise #16 (of the Rose 32) in the Carl Fischer edition is different than the #16 (of the Rose 32) in the Hite edition.
BTW -if you have the (older) Carl Fischer edition - throw it out and get a better edition...GBK
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2008-07-02 16:49
the one i have is "allegro" and I'm trying to work on articulation. the entire study is 16th notes with mostly 2/2 slurs or 2 slur 2 tongued.
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2008-07-02 16:52
and btw - when i said "lets say the 10th measure" that was just an example. it wasnt the actual measure. there are several places where i get stuck and work on and then go back and play it again from the beginning and then get stuck again.
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Author: tetiana
Date: 2008-07-02 17:49
Hi Janlynn:
You say you work on the trouble spots "until" you "get it good..". "Until" may represent many repetitions of the mistakes whereas you may be playing the correct version only once or twice. I second the advice of GBK about re-playing the passage correctly many times, in a row if possible.
It can be maddening to discipline yourself to 10 correct repetitions in a row (not that I disagree that you ought to try). But if, like me, you find patience is at times not your virtue (and impatience can interfere with concentration), try for five, or even four. Slow. Real slow. And perfect. Not only note-perfect, but hand and finger-position-perfect, and tone-production and air-support perfect. When replaying the piece from the beginning, and arriving at the troublesome bar in question, slow way down, maybe even stop, focus and see if you can get it right, playing slowly. Make sure that the number of times you've played the passage perfectly is at least three or four (or more) times the number of times you have played it with a mistake. Increase speed of the troublesome passage, but gradually. Don't even be tempted to try it at full speed until you have at least a few days of perfect slow play under your belt.
With particularly resistant difficult stuff, I will practice the bar(s) in isolation (slow) aiming for several (perfect) repetitions in sequence (5 or 10 if I can keep the concentration going), then set that piece aside, work on something else and return during my practice session to work on 5 perfect (slow) repetitions of the passage (again in isolation). I will repeat this up to four or five times during a practice session.
Eventually it works. Good luck.
tetiana
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2008-07-02 18:02
oh, i see what you mean. i usually do 3 times before i go back to the beginning. i will try for more correct times in a row before going back to the beginning.
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2008-07-02 18:04
it was just really slow and labored at my last lesson and i asked if i could work on it again. i want to get it so it sounds smooth and effortless but i can only manage a few measures before it sounds "choppy" again. unless i stop and refocus.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-07-02 18:47
James Tobin's earlier posts say most of what I would do (change rhythms and work backwards--i.e., practice bar 10, then 9-10, then 8-10, etc.).
One thing that also works well sometimes is to practice it first with everything tongued. Then go back and add the slurs. This will force you to play the rhythm evenly, because if you are little off, you will hear it more clearly when you play it tongued.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-07-02 19:07
Many many different ways to achieve the desired goal. The one commonality is perfect repetitions until the problem at issue succeeds automatically.
A variation of MRN's suggestion: play everything slurred for the same reasons.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: pewd
Date: 2008-07-02 20:03
what tetiana said - go slow when working it out.
i have my students make a chart on a piece of paper:
56 ___
60 ___
63 ___
66 ___
69 ___
72 ___
76 ___
etc. up to the desired tempo. make sure you start off however slow you have to so that you can play it without error.
check off each tempo when you can play it 3 in a row , perfect.
then move up to the next tempo.
this needs to be repeated over multiple days ; you won't solve issues like this all in one practice session.
getting them to actually work it out to this level is the difficult part - they're too impatient - this takes much repetition over multiple days, concentration, and a desire to master the passage.
don't practice until it is right - practice until it is never wrong...
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-07-03 01:41
Three things to do.
One, memorize those measures and play it that way over and over again.
No two, Rote, the same principal as number one.
No three CONCENTRATE! ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457 (Listen to a little Mozart, Live performance)
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2008-07-04 13:48
I notice you say choppy...as opposed to smooth.
Is it possible you are not blowing properly through the bit you are struggling with? Or running out of breath?
Someone told me once that when you start struggling for air, you become stupider. Something about less oxygen to the brain - now I'm not sure if that is true. But if your focus shifts from playing notes to needing air (i.e. not dying), I'm pretty sure you'll make mistakes.
Your will to survive may be greater than your will to play clarinet.
Make sure you blow continuously through the difficult passage. I tell students to think of the air always moving forwards.
If it stops, or hesitates, you will just get tense, and your fingers won't work.
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2008-08-17 16:42
Some years ago Henry Larson wrote and published "An Analysis and Study Guide to The Rose 32 Studies."
He has something to say about each one and some interesting notes about ther origin etc. An interesting read I think helpful to anyone.
Clarinet Redux
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-08-17 17:08
Begin by looking at the study and what you are playing(what scale is this and so on). Then start at the end and work through the study that way. Then you can more easily connect the measures together and you have learned the following measures when you try the next one. Say start with the last measure no.50 and learn it by play it slowly at first and so on. Then play measure no.49 slowly followed by the 50th measure. And slowly you connect the whole study together instead of struckling at the same measure over and over.
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Author: vials
Date: 2008-08-17 19:40
GBK, why is the Carl Fischer version bad? That's the one I just bought, and comparing it to 3 other "versions" I could see no difference. They probably didn't have the Hite version since there according to you (which I don't doubt) are differences between that one and the Fischer one. What are the differences? I bought one because many colleges have Rose etudes on their audition repertoire list, and I hope I didn't make a big mistake!
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-08-17 20:08
The old 1913 Carl Fischer version of the Rose 32 is a mess. It has been reprinted so many times that the notes from the original plates (which probably weren't great to begin with) have become blurry, smudged and in some cases almost unreadable. At times, the lines of the staff completely disappear. The poorly thought out spacing and visual layout by today's standards is unacceptable.
The same mistakes and typos have been reprinted for almost 100 years. It is an annoying edition to play out of, to fix, and teach from. It is clearly a case of "you get what you paid for."
If you want to torture yourself and use the older Carl Fischer edition, most of the errors and inconsistancies in notation are painfully obvious and don't need listing. There are too many to count and not worth the effort involved.
However, there is now a newer, corrected Carl Fischer edition (2002) of the Rose 32, edited by Melvin Warner. It is the far better choice than the older version. In fact, there is no comparison between it and the older 1913 version which in my opinion should now be permanently discontinued.
The Hite edition of the Rose 32 is still my favorite, as long as you don't mind his over editing...GBK
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Author: D
Date: 2008-08-19 19:02
Another technique which I have used (often useful with long runs of semi quavers and lots of jumps) is to run a metronome and play every first note of the bar, then again with the first and middle note and then all four quarters of the bar and so on until you are playing every note. Idea being that you pick up the shape of the phrase and the sense of speed. However, because of the mathematical division of which notes you play, rather than a musical one, you can end up playing some mighty odd notes. It puts a new perspective on the piece and sometimes is enough to break a blind spot. And whatever happens you keep going. The total opposite to the 10 perfect repetitions technique, which is also brilliant but works on a different aspect of your playing. That is looking more at muscle memory, this looks more at fitting a melodic line together and drilling that shape in. A similar technique if you are really struggling, get a blank sheet of manuscript paper and draw out the melodic line as a single line in coloured pencil, just going up or down according to where the notes go. Don't do any notes, just a long line. Also, sing the melodic line from memory, if you can't then you may find this is what is tripping you up, as every time you play you are actually sight reading part of it and your brain can't process fast enough.
By the way, does the bar you get stuck on come at the beginning of a line? I sometimes find that is a problem. If so, write it out on another sheet and tape it to the end of the previous line for a while to see if that helps.
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