 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: vials
Date: 2008-08-15 16:47
Hi, I know there are tons of threads regarding tonguing (and I think I have read them all haha), but I still feel that I need to start this new thread, sorry!
My problem is speeeeed. I am starting to believe that my tongue just isn't "designed" to play stacatto faster than 16ths at 100 bpm. I do staccatto excercises every day, and I am making progress in the quality and accuracy of my tonguing, but not the speed. I have heard other people complaining about their stacatto speed and then realizing it's their tongue/finger coordination, not the tonguing itself that is their problem. This is not my problem, for I can't even tongue 2 measures at 110 bpm on an open g.
I use tip-to-tip tonguing, but sometimes I catch myself very very gently touching the roof of my mouth with the middle part of my tongue at the same time the tip is touching the reed. Sounds strange, I know.. Does anybody recognize this?
To disguise my stacatto speed problem, I use two slurred-two tongued articulation a lot, since I am able to do that at around 130 bpm on a good day.
I have recently started working on double tonguing, which I need to practice a lot more before it sounds even and clean, but maybe this is my only way of ever being able to tongue faster?? All other areas of my playing are improving, so the articulation is really holding me back!
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2008-08-15 18:01
Do you mentally group the tonguing, or do you just go for it, machine gun style?
That is, when you're tonguing fast, are you thinking "tongue tongue tongue tongue tongue" or "1 2 3 4 1"?
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: vials
Date: 2008-08-15 18:54
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. What is the difference in thinking "tongue tongue tongue" rather than " 1 2 3 4 1"? I don't know if I think anything special at all, I just tongue, and focus on doing it evenly and in tempo.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2008-08-15 21:35
I find I can go a lot faster if I think about grouping the tonguing. If my intention is "tongue 16th notes at such and such tempo," I lose it fairly quickly. If, however, I try tonguing at that same tempo, but make a conscious effort to group the notes together, I can tongue quite a bit faster and with greater consistency.
So, if I'm tonguing 16th notes, 4 to a beat, I think to myself as I tongue them, "1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4..." The first beat of 4 is all leading toward the second beat's 1, which immediately leads toward the beat after that, etc.
The key is to keep the notes energized with forward motion. If you aren't actively aware of each note's role in the phrase, passage, or even otherwise-unmusical bar of straight 16ths you're playing as an exercise, it is very easy to slip into sitting on notes. Once you lose a sense of forward motion, the notes, and tongue, slow up big time.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: vials
Date: 2008-08-15 22:38
Ok, yes that makes sense! Tomorrow I will try to really focus on the forward motion and see what happens. Of course I believe no miracle will happen just in one day, but it's all the while exciting to try new methods
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-08-16 02:17
tongue stroke.....faster...smaller motion.... try side to side action.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: vials
Date: 2008-08-16 08:50
Ryder, Thanks for the link. I have read it before but it was several months ago and I couldn't remember where.
Arnold, side to side tonguing, wouldn't that be hard to get the strokes even since the tongue isn't hitting the reed at the same spot everytime? Sounds interesting though. Do you use it yourself?
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-08-16 23:31
Side to side will only work well if you have that coordination already in your tongue muscles.
Most players can't swing the tongue rapidly from side to side.
16th notes at quarter =240 are possible that way. Its "Bob Spring" fast.
Perfect for those violin military band parts.
Standard doubletonguing is probably the way to go, though not as fast.
There is a genetic component to side to side as my 11 year old is doing it pretty easily.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-08-17 03:08
How responsive is your reed/mouthpiece/ligature setup? If you haven't already read it, the other day I had an interesting discussion in another thread on this board with Tony Pay about how much easier it can be to tongue on classical-period instruments because they tend to respond more quickly than modern instruments (you'll have to scroll down some to read).
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=280051&t=280051
I'm working on improving my articulation speed, too. Two points from this discussion that I found particularly useful were:
1.) Tonguing is easier when your setup is more responsive
2.) Staccato playing requires more air/support because it takes significant energy to build up oscillations in the reed after you release the tongue (and the faster you go, the more often you have to restart oscillations, thus requiring greater average energy)
A corollary to this is that as you go faster, you have to make sure your tongue doesn't stay on the reed too long each time, because the length of time you have no sound at each articulation includes not only the time the tongue is on the reed but also the time it takes to build up reed oscillations.
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Author: vials
Date: 2008-08-17 10:29
mrn, yes I did read that discussion, very interesting. And regarding my mpc/reed/ligature setup, I use a Walter Grabner K14, V12 3.5 and Vandoren leather ligature with metal plate. The reeds make all the difference in the world, when I have a really good reed my stacatto is both faster and easier. Unfortunately only 2 or 3 reeds out of each box are very good, and even those can vary a lot from day to day..
And I usually try to practice (if only for a couple of minutes) on every reed in the box because one day the worst one suddenly sounds good. Though it's kind of a pain to, say 70% of the time, be playing on non satisfactory reeds, as it lowers my self confidence and joy in playing..
I recently bought the ATG system, and while it does help making reeds respond better, it makes the tone harsher and thinner, even if I just do a few light passes with the smoothest sandpaper. I'm probably just not good at the technique though..
Sorry didn't mean to make this into a reed thread, so let's get back to articualtion and speed!
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Author: DrH2O
Date: 2008-08-17 12:35
Regarding developing speed -
What is a sort of average (if there is such a thing) speed progression? I assume that speed comes slowly over time as the rest of our technique falls into place and it's the technique that's the goal, not the speed per se. But when you're having trouble keeping up with the band, it would be nice to have some idea about where you can reasonably expect to be. I'm sure it's different for everyone, but I would still like to have an idea of what speeds students generally acquire at what stages of playing development. As an adult learner I'm also intersted in how that speed progression varies for adults vs kids.
Anne
Clarinet addict
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2008-08-17 16:25
Michelle Gringas has her own take on tonguing in her book. Not a startling viewpoint, but every little bit helps. Her whole book is quite useful. Sometimes a different slant on elementary things can put a revealing light on things more difficult. The Old Geezer has spoken!
Clarinet Redux
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-08-18 03:28
I like EEMaums idea. I call that rebound tonguing when I teach my students. The idea is to think of the first note as a stroke and “rebound” the other three, or two in a triplet. I use the comparison of hitting your hand or a stick or a pencil on something and letting the 2,3 and 4th pulse “rebound” so you’re not actually stroke it four times. Of course that’s only one part of the solution. I always begin teaching with what I consider the proper tongue position, arching the tip and keeping the back up by the upper molars. If that does not give the proper result in time I experiment with the tongue position because everyone’s tongue is a different size. If the tongue is a bit long, or short, or thick you have to make adjustments. There is no such thing as one position fits all. Our second player in Baltimore has one of the fastest, clear sounding tonguing I’ve ever heard, except maybe for Morales, and he tongues below the tip of his tongue behind the tip of the reed because he claims his tongue is too long to hit the tip of the reed with the tip of his tongue. He says he didn’t realize it until he was in his early 30s. You can’t teach everybody the same way; you have to find what works best for them so you have to experiment with the placement of your tongue and the placement on the reed. You may be tonguing right but it may not be right for you.
Good luck, ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457 A little Mozart!
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2008-08-18 09:31
Surely this talk about thinking in groups boils down to a musical point anyway - if you are tonguing a group of semiquavers (sixteenths to the US readers) or triplets, in most cases, you would want the first of the group to have a little more emphasis because it is on the beat.
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