 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: myshineyblackjoy
Date: 2008-08-02 02:49
I saw a clarinet up for auction on you know where And the ad read a bundy bakelite I never heard of a clarinet made of this is it true ? anyone know???? Please enlighten me.......
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Author: pewd
Date: 2008-08-02 03:06
google 'Bakelite Clarinet' you'll find all sorts of interesting stuff, mostly Chinese, mostly CSO's.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: hans
Date: 2008-08-02 03:11
I would expect it to be brittle - perhaps not a good choice of material for a clarinet.
Hans
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-08-02 09:35
Most older Bundy, Yamaha, Vito and B&H plastic clarinets were made from bakelite before they began to use resin which is much lighter.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-08-02 12:53
Most cheapo Chinese clarinets are made from very low density (and low quality) plastic for the brightly coloured ones you see listed on eBay all the time, or mostly from ebonite for the black ones.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-08-02 13:24
Are we confusing Hard[ened] Rubber with Bakelite, which is a phenol-formaldehyde thermoset resin ? Bak has very good electrical [resistance/breakdown properties, so, as an early synthetic, its main use was in electrical equipment. The two have some similarities in appearance, with Bak being very brittle, as Hans points out, thereby not as good a thermoset "plastic" for wwinds. I cant recall ever seeing a Bak cl ! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-08-02 13:31
You must have seen the older plastic clarinets (Bundys etc.) which were made from phenol resin before they went onto the more wax-like 'Resonite' and ABS resins in the '70s.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-08-02 13:58
Yes, Chris, I've seen many old cls, and believe they were H R's [that technology predates Bakely's research], even if the ?unpigmented? color was the reddish-brown like Bakelite. I made a quickie pat search in GooglePatents for Bakelite AND clarinet, finding only Bak being used for mp facings [1900-1930's], not cl bodies. I don't doubt that some Bak cls were made, perhaps easily broken, believe it was hard to machine as well. Am quite unfamiliar with British-French practice back then. AM thots. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-08-02 14:37
The bakelite/phenol resin bodied Bundys, Vitos, Yamahas etc. were injection moulded and the ridges left by the moulding process were ground flush to blend them in with the joint surface, but can still be seen as slight flats along the length when looking down the joints, and even more obvious in places such as the ends and shoulders of tenons, bases of sockets and the cork slot once the tenon corks have been removed.
The joints were injection moulded (so the basic dimensions were identical on the joints from the same make) with integral tonehole chimneys, though other toneholes, pillar holes, spring slots, etc. were machined after the joints were tidied up after the moulding process.
Selmer (USA) even went as far as making bassoons from bakelite, but these weighed a ton in comparison to wooden ones, and had 'weight saving' recesses (like sinuses in a skull) in certain points in an attempt to make them lighter, though they didn't succeed. And with bakelite being as brittle as it is, tenons snapped off with ease. The snapped off area of the tenon on these instruments reveals a fairly regular granular appearance, and slightly greyer than the surface colour.
The old Dolmetsch descant recorders made entirely from bakelite (with the typical brown finish as seen used on car dashboards and radios) were liked for their cutting sound due to the hardness of the material, and the crispness (thinness) they could make the edge of the ramp (marked 'C' in the following cross sectional diagram http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Recorder300.svg) also made for a bright tone. But they were brittle and usually had the footjoint tenon snapped off through rough use (as most were the standard recorder used in primary schools in the UK until the Aulos recorders gained popularity).
The thing I remember most about bakelite is that certain and unmistakable smell it makes when chipped or scratched.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-08-02 14:42
And if you look on *Ba* or e**y in Germany (in former Eastern German towns) or any former Eastern Bloc country, you'll still find many Soviet-era bakelite-bodied clarinets and oboes of the older German design listed there (especially the oboes). I think they may have nickel or chrome plated mazak keys too!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2008-08-02 14:46
Bundy plastic clarinets have been made of "Resonite" since at least the 1950s. Bakelite has a slightly dull surface, while Resonite is shiny. If the auction instrument is shiny, it's undoubtedly Resonite, and the seller is an idiot.
By the way, I've played many Dolmetsch Bakelite recorders, and they don't have a bright sound at all. The sound is smooth and fairly soft. Also, I think maple and the tropical woods are harder than Bakelite, which you can scratch with your thumbnail.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Cindyr
Date: 2008-08-02 16:15
I was told that my Pedler American clarinet from the 1930's is made of bakelite. My father bought this clarinet used in 1943. I played it in high school and college. Anyone know anything about these?
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-08-02 16:35
TKS, Ken, I agree on all conclusions. Shiny, as in "myshinyblackjoy" would likely be the "modern" hard rubber. Dull, turning green-brown in sunlight, the older hard rubber. Cindy's 1930-43 Pedler, likely [IMHO] "in-between" HR. They made wood insts also, larger ones were quite good ! Hope we all have been more informative than just generating confusion !! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-08-02 19:18
The moulding process can leave the surface as shiny as glass. Just because it's shiny doesn't mean it can't be made from bakelite. The surface can deteriorate on all plastics from a bright shine to being dull, depending on how well it has been looked after, or due to the effects of UV and cleaning agents.
As companies stipulate that they 'reserve the right to alter specifications', such companies that have used the term 'Resonite' on their plastic-bodied instruments also reserve the right to change the type of plastic they use for clarinet bodies for what ever reason.
Where they may have once used a high density but brittle plastic (phenol resin/bakelite) for their instruments, they may have found newer resins (such as ABS) offer better moulding properties, are more durable and more cost effective to use.
The older Yamaha YPC-31 piccolos were also moulded from phenol resin, though they too later changed to ABS. However, the standard Yamaha mouthpieces for clarinets and saxes (eg. Yamaha 4C) are still moulded from phenol resin.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: myshineyblackjoy
Date: 2008-08-02 20:12
Thanks for all the info,I just knew someone could answer that one for me. Though I gotta tell ya my shiney black joy isn't really that black,as she is wooden,but I keep her clean and shiney,haha..... and she gives me much joy!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-08-03 18:40
"The bakelite/phenol resin bodied Bundys, Vitos, Yamahas etc. were injection moulded"
I find this hard to believe since injection molding of thermosets was developed long after any American mfgr. made clarinets from any phenol/formaldehyde compound. All early thermoset parts were compression molded. As regards the original post my opinion is that the seller doesn't really know what the clarinet is made from and is using the "Bakelite" term incorrectly.
You might question the seller.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-08-03 22:13
Cheers, Bob.
I was wondering how bakelite was moulded, I didn't think it would be fluid enough to be injection moulded as lower density resins are (ABS etc.) so 'compression moulded' makes more sense - and seeing the slight irregularities of the outsides of joints (the flats left where the excess has been removed) that makes more sense as injection moulds should leave a better finish provided the sections fit well.
I presume in both compression and injection moulding a mandrel is used to form the bore which doesn't leave a 'lateral line' running down it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-08-04 14:10
Chris...I don't know for a fact but would guess that the bores are gun drilled and reamed after molding. Ceramic parts are even injection molded today.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-08-04 14:40
"I don't know for a fact but would guess that the bores are gun drilled and reamed after molding."
I bet drilling and reaming bakelite kicks up a right old stink!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-08-04 15:18
Well, over the years I've worked around both phenol and formaldehyde and machined some early "bakelite" so I don't recognize the smell as a stink.
Bob Draznik
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