 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: CWH
Date: 2008-07-18 23:43
Attachment: SWBT1 001.jpg (1127k)
Attachment: SWBT1 002.jpg (1180k)
Good Afternoon All,
First, let me say I’m strictly a clarinet player, but I was recently given a soprano sax by a very good friend who thought I’d have some fun with it. To say the least it would appear to be a student line horn, with a manufacture of “International Musical Instruments – New York”. A name unfamiliar to me, but typical for a student line of horns. Knowing very little I’m hoping that someone can help me with a few questions if you have the time.
I would like to know if the horn is worth an overhaul in order to make it playable and what key is it in? It has stamped just above the serial number low pitch.
I have attached a couple of pictures for your review. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you
Chuck
Study, Practice, Play and Enjoy.
Post Edited (2008-07-18 23:47)
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-07-19 00:37
Sopranos are in the key of Bb. Low pitch usually implies that it is pitched for A=440, which is standard for American tuning in most cases. Higher pitched instruments are pitched correspondingly higher, and were primarily dsesigned for the European market,a s they tend to tune a tad higher over there.
Soprano...Bb
Alto... Eb
Tenor...Bb
Baritone... Eb
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: CWH
Date: 2008-07-19 01:56
Hello Jeff,
Thank you so much for your post to my questions. Did you have a chance to look at the picture I posted? If so what to you think? Is it for sure a soprano? I’m not even sure of that. The horn plating is worn for sure, but it gives it character. Do you think it’s worth having it overhauled? I attached a copy of the photos here if you care to look again.
Your feedback is truly appreciated.
Thank you
Chuck
Study, Practice, Play and Enjoy.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2008-07-19 02:46
yes that is a soprano sax.
it would appear to need more work than it is worth. it appears to need pads, probably all new key corks, bumper felts, springs, no telling what else.
do the keys move freely?
i've never heard of that particular brand. if you wait a bit someone here will surely post more info.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Arlee
Date: 2008-07-19 07:05
To find out what key it is do the obvious thing first and look near thumb rest for stamped info. If it's not marked and you're not able to toot it, post a pic of the low "C" [C and Eb] keys. The BB techs will quickly ID it for you from that. Most likely would be Bb but considering its age it could be a C.
=A=
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Author: Fred
Date: 2008-07-19 14:44
"Low pitch usually implies that it is pitched for A=440, which is standard for American tuning in most cases. Higher pitched instruments are pitched correspondingly higher, and were primarily dsesigned for the European market,a s they tend to tune a tad higher over there."
Slight Correction: High Pitch (HP) instruments are not tuned "a tad higher". They are tuned "a bunch higher". They are not at all like a European clarinet tuned at 442-444, which could be used in the USA. A High Pitch instrument is completely unplayable in a modern ensemble.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-07-19 15:42
Ah, that is an oldie, prob. should be in a museum, such as the Natl. Music Museum in Vermillion, S D !. You might contact Debbi Reeves there, as they hve many old Conn horns and info on their mfgr'g activities. My guess is that it is a Conn [straight sop] prob. in Bb, vintage 1900' s +/- 15 years, made for NYC Fischer? sale??? I had a '20's curved sop which had improved keying as I recall it. I'll bet a true early N O jazzer would love to have [and fight] it. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: CWH
Date: 2008-07-19 16:45
Hi All,
I stopped buy the repair guy I know and he guesses that an overhaul (new pads, springs, and cork) will cost between $200-300. So here I am now what to do go for it and have something to noodle with. Or put in the back of my closet with the other metal clarinets I’ve been given over the years?
What a dilemma, what to do?
Chuck
Study, Practice, Play and Enjoy.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-07-19 18:03
Hi Chuck,
While $200 t0 300 is not all that bad, what shape is the MP? If it is an older one, plan on a new one. While I play a Selmer C* or Meyers 7M on my Super 80II soprano, I have found that the cheap Rico Royal B5 or B7 might work very well to get you started for about $25.
The case looked pretty scary of it was next to in sax so plan on at least a soprano gig bag for about $40 to 40 as well.
Is it worth almost $400 for you have fun?
HRL
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2008-07-20 00:02
It looks to me like an early 20th century sax. As a store brand, it's worth less than if it had the manufacturer's brand name on it, but from what I can see of it, it's in basically good condition. Some of those store brands are good bargains for people more intrested in the playing quality of vintage instruments, more than the retail value. I don't know who made saxophones for the International music store--yours could be a death-dog or it might be an excellent instrument made for the store by one of the better manufacturers. (One of my best instruments is a store brand, a "Weymann" alto that's clearly a Martin, probably from 1928 if the serial number is a Martin number--a vintage that makes sense because of the bizarre, patented, Martin octave key from that period.)
The things that rot and deteriorate over time need replacing on your sax, but I don't see missing keys, big dents, crushed bell, bent neck or the other types of damage that cost a mint to fix and can lead to the instrument being out of tune with itself for good. If you're interested in vintage saxophones, restoring that one might be worth doing--and almost certainly cheaper than going out and buying a new soprano sax. (Fwiw--I'm an advanced amateur who'd bought way too many smelly old horns....)
Re. buying a new mouthpiece, you may need the old one, or a custom one that's close to the original specs, because the ratio of mouthpiece length and diameter to the horn itself has changed over the years. I've found some modern mouthpieces in the cases with saxes from the 1920s and 1930s. Usually I've found that putting a modern mouthpiece with an old sax causes horrible intonation problems. With their old beaks, old saxes can sound splendid. They've generally got a mellower, less shrill tone than modern saxes.
You mentioned metal clarinets. You may have some good things there, too. Several people here collect the better metal clarinets, which can be very good indeed.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: CWH
Date: 2008-07-20 01:12
Hi All,
Lelia, Hank, Don, Fred and others thank you for your warm answers to my questions. I appreciate all those who took time to read this tread and offer feed back, it is what makes this forum fantastic.
The notion of picking up something new and learning is quite rewarding. Lelia as you pointed out this could take on a life of its own, playing with reeds and mouth pieces (period appropriate).
From the point of knowing very little about soprano sax’s is it possible to tell what the playable range of this instrument is. Someone mentioned that it did do have a high F# key, ok. Not having played it yet how high and low would you expect it to play?
It’s taking on a new life….
Chuck
Study, Practice, Play and Enjoy.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-07-20 01:20
Chuck,
I learned the altissimo range just fine without an F# key. I play three octaves just fine.
The main problem you will find though is the ergonomics of older saxes is a challenge. Dave S. loves em and has shown me some of his rebuilds but I just can't get that jazzed about old sax fingering setups. The left little finger keys on your sop sax look like a hard way to go.
There is good reason why so many current saxes are modeled after Selmer saxes.
HRL
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Author: CWH
Date: 2008-07-20 14:03
Oh my look at what this little horn has started, guys’ thank you for your very kind responses. Your knowledge on this topic is slightly overwhelming, but truly welcome.
Let me first start that I have no intention at this time on selling her, though I appreciate the inquiries. This would be my first venture with a SOP and I’m on a fact finding mission.
The old girl is not engraved as a “Buescher” it is “International Musical Instruments – NY”, but as I’m finding out Buescher made horns for music stores. So I’m assuming that like with clarinets you can identify the horn from its key work. If it is helpful the horns serial number is 86XXX. The length of the horn I can not post right now as I have dropped it off with the technician (same guy who adjusts my other horns). In short what I’m hearing for you guys is that she is a keeper, which was my thought too. I expect it will be some fun to noodle around with.
And yes I like most of you have collected more horns than one person should. In my case it has been clarinets, mostly Leblancs with a few exceptions. To this we can ad a few more old metal horns that have been restored.
When I was given this old girl “Sidney Bechet” came to mind and the wonderful spectrum of sound he was able to produce.
Although it came with an unmarked mouthpiece, can you make a suggestion as to others to try and possible facings? Again, if it were a clarinet no problem, but here with this I’m at a loss. I did go ahead and order a box of #3 Alexander Superial DC, was this ok. I would normally play 3 ½ to 4 ½ on my clarinet depending on the setup. So I thought the #3 would be a good starting point, but I should have inquired first.
Any further advice is welcome and greatly appreciated.
Thank you to all
Chuck
Study, Practice, Play and Enjoy.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-07-20 14:09
This reminds me of my sopo --a pawn shop special. Its intonation was so bad that the C5/C#5 were indistinguishable.
Wrap enough saran wrap around the upper pads to get them to seal and test C/C# before doing anything else.
I finally traded my soprano to the lady who owned the ww5. She let me substitute in the group on clarinet; and she added the horn to a wall collage.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-07-20 15:27
hi Chuck - Lots of good comments. Have you ever posted it's serial number? For some mfgr's. it might be informative. Also any other info visible? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: CWH
Date: 2008-07-20 16:10
Hi Don,
Yes this a great thread in deed. If it is helpful the horns serial number is 86XXX. Just above the serial number is "Low Pitch". Etched in the body is the manufacture of “International Musical Instruments – New York.
Thank you
Chuck
Study, Practice, Play and Enjoy.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2008-07-21 11:45
CWH,
International Musical Instruments is a stencial name. Stencials were made by "name" instrument companies -- such as Buescher, Conn, Martin, etc -- and then had another name engraved on the horn. Typically, they were second-line instruments in their quality.
Clearly, this is an early 20's soprano. I, personally, would have concerns with its intonation. Around 7 years ago I had an absolutely superb 1928 Buescher soprano. Its intonation with a large chamber Morgan mouthpiece was excellent. However, it's cost was a couple of thousand. This was an exceptional instrument. Earlier model sopranos can be more problematic with respect to intonation and I would be especially be nervous about an early 20's stencial.
If I was in your shoes, I would consider a newer soprano. If you do some research and comparision pricing it's possible to get a decent one at a resonable price. Of course, it will be more expensive than the cost of overhauling the one you have. But, I cannot help but think you might spend your money on that horn and then find that it has all kinds of problems. I was in that situation a number of years ago with an early model c-melody. After repeated trips to the repair tech, I finally got smart and got rid of the horn out of frustration.
Good luck!
PS, the pearl G# key is typical of pre-1926 Bueschers. As I recall, later 20's Conn, Martin, and Selmer sopranos did not have a pearl G# key. Also, Buescher changed their design in 1926 to have a metal G# key with a roller. I'm wondering if your soprano may be an early 20's Buescher sential.
Roger
Post Edited (2008-07-21 11:59)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-07-21 12:10
Chuck,
Can you measure the length of this soprano (in centimetres and millimetres) so we can determine whether it's pitched in Bb or C.
I've only got two different modern Bb sopranos to compare the length with (YSS-62 and SA80II), though I'm sure some board members may have an old Conn, Buescher or other US-built Bb sopranos to compare the length with which would be better as modern sopranos have different bore shapes and bell lengths.
If it is pitched in C (and good that it's also Low Pitch), that'll make it ideal for playing concert pitch (flute, oboe, violin etc.) parts on with any ensemble playing at 440Hz. Though the intonation can be a bit wild on C sopranos (and older Bb sopranos), though you'll soon adjust and adapt to it to get it to play in tune.
The only C soprano I have seen was an old silver plated Conn, though it was unplayable due to it's poor condition.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-07-21 13:24
Very good analysis and comments, Roger, I'm happy with Buescher as the maker. I had a mid '30's Bue Alto, but cannot recall much detail. The ser # is much different from those on earlier Conns , does it fit with B's numbering? Will try to find a listing, Saxmaniax ??, or SaxGourmet? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2008-07-21 14:13
Don,
I would not expect the serial number on this horn to conform to those on Buescher serial number lists. After all, it's not being sold as a Buescher.
Several years ago I had a really interesting 1930's Buescher stencial tenor. It had a body similar to a 1935 Buescher Aristocrat. However, some of the keywork was similar to that on a 1934 New Aristocrat. The engraved name was Rocket....cool, huh? As I recall, its serial number did not fit Buescher serial number lists. Also, the horn was definitely not up to the quality of my 1934 New Aristocrat tenor. The Rocket was much lighter than my New Aristocrat (thinner metal perhaps) and the quality of its sound was not even close to a New Aristocrat.
Some stencials can be okay. But, often they were made from whatever parts happened to be lying around the factory at the time. Thus, some stencials can have features of different models.
One needs to try a stencial horn before buying to determine how good it is. You might get lucky with one. However, a stencial first needing an overhaul makes the matter much trickier.
Roger
Post Edited (2008-07-21 14:20)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-07-21 20:06
Thinking over this thread's info etc, reminded me of the book, a present from one of our kids, "The Devil's Horn, The Story of the Saxophone, From Noisy Novelty To King of Cool" by Michael Segell, C 2005, Farrar et al. It's wordy but makes mentions of makers-makes, players, a discussion of "octave key" p.183 might help identification, not real clear from the pics to me. This book prob. came from Amazon, might be in a larger library? Will continue reading ! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-07-21 20:17
Don Berger wrote:
> Thinking over this thread's info etc, reminded me of the book,
> a present from one of our kids, "The Devil's Horn ...
Would that it be written by Ambrose Bierce ....
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-07-21 20:18
Ok, lengths of modern Bb sopranos are:
Yamaha YSS-62 - 64.8cm or 25 1/2"
Selmer SA80II - 66.3cm or 26 1/8"
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-07-21 20:26
I'm with you, Mark, its time - consuming, of course most folk think that's all oldersters have to do, BUT, ! still practice , etc ! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: CWH
Date: 2008-07-24 22:06
Hello Folks
First, let me apologize if I steered anyone astray, I think I may have used the word stenciled incorrectly. I should have said engraved. Let me also apologize for my delay in making this correction, I got married over the past weekend.
I am picking up the horn tomorrow and I will indeed measure it. I decided to have it worked on else ware. I think perhaps having someone a little more knowledgeable work on her is key.
Chuck
Study, Practice, Play and Enjoy.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2008-07-25 00:31
In your second photo, the way the RH C-pad is almost tucked up under the C-key pretty much tells you that this is a C-soprano. It does look like a Buescher stencil to me.
As far as the word "stencil" goes, the term really does not mean what a non-musician would think. It has nothing to do with whether the logo is engraved, etched, painted, or "stenciled".
When a major manufacturer was approached about providing instruments for a smaller company or even just a music store, the manufacturer would make the instrument - sometimes identical to their current model and sometimes more closely resembling their older models - and then engrave the instrument any way the buyer wanted. That is what we call a "stencil".
Something similar happened in the clarinet world when King contracted with SML to make upper level clarinets for them. They were marketed by King and sold as Kings, but the models contained both the King name and a hint about their maker: King Lemaire and King Marigaux. Marigaux and Lemaire were the M&L of SML.
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Author: CWH
Date: 2008-07-25 19:32
Hello all,
I briefly had the horn in my hands today and just before I shipped it of to the repair tradesman in Texas. I took a moment to measure the overall length of the horn, she is 56cm (22") long. As measured for tip to tip.
I hope this additional information helps in some small part in the identification of her.
Thank you
Chuck
Study, Practice, Play and Enjoy.
Post Edited (2008-07-25 21:58)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-07-27 21:18
"I took a moment to measure the overall length of the horn, she is 56cm (22") long."
That's a considerable difference in length compared to the Yamaha and Selmer, so it could well indeed be a C soprano you have there.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: CWH
Date: 2008-07-28 20:54
Good afternoon all,
I shipped off the sax a few days ago to the repair tradesman in TX, I'm confident he'll do a fantastic job. I'm now wondering if I should leave what patina is on it or have him buff it all out. What are your thoughts folks?
Thank you again for all the expert advise given here in this fourm.
Chuck
Study, Practice, Play and Enjoy.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-07-28 23:43
Have it all cleaned thoroughly to remove surface grime (and leaving the patina pretty much as is), but definitely not buffed up to a bright shine.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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