 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Lynn
Date: 2008-07-17 03:28
Wow!
Thanks for sharing the link. Quite nice.
Lynn
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-07-17 03:43
Great playing.
However, by the applause it sounded like the audience was comprised of about 15 people.
...GBK
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Author: mnorswor
Date: 2008-07-17 05:13
GBK....your point is? Does this diminish the quality of the playing?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-07-17 05:23
mnorswor wrote:
> GBK....your point is? Does this diminish the quality of the
> playing?
If in fact this was a concert and the audience was only 15 people (and we don't know that for sure) the quality of his playing is not the relevant issue, but rather, that listening to a world class bass clarinetist is not yet a burning desire of the masses...GBK
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Author: mnorswor
Date: 2008-07-17 06:36
Again.... what's the point of this? Are your comments in any way constructive?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-07-17 07:08
Henri Bok is a world class player who should be heard. There is no doubt about that.
However, when a (bass) clarinet recital or concert only draws a handful of people to hear it, we then have to ask the question as to why.
Is the clarinet (or bass clarinet) even relevant to today's listening audience?
Would the average person buy a ticket to a clarinet performance?
Would the average person take two hours of his time to attend even if it was free?
Or, as a clarinetists, are we fighting an uphill battle which (I fear) we are slowly losing?
We compete for our rightful musical place against guitars, electronic keyboards, saxophones, etc...
But, the advent of the electric keyboard has dramatically hurt the learning of wind instruments - "push a button, use one finger, play a song". No pre-study required. We all know of students who have quit playing winds, strings and brass because of the time it encompasses. There are no short cuts and that frustrates today's generation.
The bulk of our musical repertoire is more than 100 years old and the general public can barely name more than 2 famous clarinetists.
Watch any "popular" music program - not a clarinet in sight.
Scan a trade paper for "musicians seeking other musicians", and it is almost unheard of to see someone looking to find a clarinetist.
Worst of all, (and the most troubling to me), students even question if the clarinet is a relevant instrument by today's music standards.
Or.....Are we all still just keeping a dinosaur alive? ...GBK
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Author: mnorswor
Date: 2008-07-17 07:14
Thanks for making a point. Much appreciated.
My question now to you would be... If you believe these things to be true, what are you doing to try and change them for the better?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-07-17 07:33
mnorswor wrote:
> If you believe these things
> to be true, what are you doing to try and change them for the
> better?
I wish I had that magic answer.
Like others on this bulletin board, I taught in the public schools for many years and worked hard to promote not only the clarinet, but the appreciation of the music of the great masters. I like to think that I was mildy successful.
But when one of my older private students, just 2 days ago, said to me:
"You know Mr K, I play clarinet for show, but I play guitar for the dough"
The reality of the current music scene couldn't have been any clearer...GBK
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-07-17 08:12
The players are good, though that piece is a bit naive (for example suddenly that quote of Summertime) but anyway....
>> However, by the applause it sounded like the
>> audience was comprised of about 15 people.
I found from recordings that it can be a bit deceiving of the real size of the audience. Maybe it's not a big hall with hunderds of people but sometimes it's not really possible to know from a recording.
>> Worst of all, (and the most troubling to me), students even question
>> if the clarinet is a relevant instrument by today's music standards.
That question is irelevant 
Speaking for myself (but I think the same is true for Henri Bok and many other players), I want to play clarient and bass clarinet. I know what music I want to play. Sometiems this doesn't attract many people. I've played even the same music with the same group in concerts with hundreds in the audience but also with barely a couple of dozens (usually in small places, though they could easily fill more). Yes, sometimes it's not the most fun when not many people come, but sometimes it's great regardless of how many people come. But you know what would be much worse than playing what I want, on the instruments I want, for a small audience? Playing music I don't want to play, on instruments I don't want to play, no matter how big is the audience.
Nitai
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Author: clarionman
Date: 2008-07-17 14:06
GBK wrote:
>But when one of my older private students, just 2 days ago, said to me:
>"You know Mr K, I play clarinet for show, but I play guitar for the dough"
>The reality of the current music scene couldn't have been any clearer...GBK
That is just so true and so sad for us clarinet players.
Post Edited (2008-07-17 14:09)
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Author: William
Date: 2008-07-17 16:04
Norsworthy asked, "what are you doing to try and change them for the better?" Good question.........
Personally, I put my instruments--clarinets & saxophones--in front of the public whenever and whereever I can, sometimes for pay, but many times just for play. For most of us with limited abilities and "star power", that's about all we can do to keep our wind instrument art alive. However, like GBK, I fear we might lose to electronics in the long run--but hopefully not while I'm still kick'n :>)
Also, I volunteer every week giving free lessons to beginning band students at the middle school I retired from nine years ago. Giving young kids a successful start on a musical instument and keeping them playing through school and into adulthood is, perhaps, our best hope of keeping live music "alive" for future generations. Just my small way of continuing to make a difference............and stay away from that retirement rock'n chair blues thing.
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2008-07-17 19:33
Interesting thread.
I'm a beginner who has really been bitten by the clarinet bug. The other night I was watching and listening to Acker Bilk's 1988 (I think) "Strangers on the Shore" video (the tune was actually popularized and no. 1 in 1962) when my wife came into the room and said, "Oh, I didn't know that was a clarinet he was playing! I have always just looooved that tune."
My point is, if somehow, in addition to the classical stuff, clarinetists could also play some tunes that the masses like, including broadway tunes, appropriate (for the clarinet anyway) pop music, etc., we could win over some people who would otherwise not give a darn about the clarinet.
Just my 2 pennies worth.
CarlT
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Author: hans
Date: 2008-07-17 20:01
Re: mnorswor's question "what are you doing to try and change them for the better?"... it seems to me that Mark and GBK are already doing more to stimulate interest in and appreciation for the clarinet than anyone else on the planet by managing this wonderful BB as volunteers.
Hans
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-07-17 20:54
> My point is, if somehow, in addition to the classical stuff, clarinetists could
> also play some tunes that the masses like, including broadway tunes,
> appropriate (for the clarinet anyway) pop music, etc., we could win over
> some people who would otherwise not give a darn about the clarinet.
You hit the nail on the head. It's that "if people don't go to the mountain, the mountain must come to them" thing. There's a wealth of music out there, and it just waits to be played with whatever instrument is at hand. "Help!" for clarinet choir? Anytime! Sweet Home Alabama for a wacko woodwind ensemble? Count me in... Bend the rules, screw the limits.
Maybe we should get off that high horse sometimes...
--
Ben
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-07-17 22:05
Hi GBK,
This reminds me of the comment that I heard the great Dr. William D. Revelli make at a band director's workshop that I attended many, many years ago. Revelli said "there are people that will drive 100 miles in a snowstorm to hear the Michigan Marching Band play The Victors but the same people will not walk across the street to hear the Michigan Symphony Band perform at a free concert."
The reality of the situation is we tend to squander too many great listening and viewing opportunities for the flimsiest of excuses. I am guilty as well. My wife can tell you about the time I missed Diana Krall performing with Tony Bennett at Interlochen and Jerry Lewis the revival of in Damn Yankees in OMA.
But I did attend a fantastic master class with Eli Eban this past winter at BGSU, just down the road and it was even free.
HRL
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Author: mnorswor
Date: 2008-07-18 02:38
Hans, we are all entitled to our opinion.
My question was not intended to point any fingers but simply to ask what someone is doing to try and remedy something that he complained about.
Post Edited (2008-07-18 02:44)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-07-18 05:11
>> You hit the nail on the head... Bend the rules, screw the limits.
But what CarlT offered, which you replied to, is exactly the opposite of breaking the rules and screwing the limits.
>> My point is, if somehow, in addition to the classical stuff,
>> clarinetists could also play some tunes that the masses like,
>> including broadway tunes, appropriate (for the clarinet
>> anyway) pop music, etc., we could win over some people
>> who would otherwise not give a darn about the clarinet.
I don't think the instrument is the issue. Some people already play music like that. For example Giora Feidman plays some Hebrew songs here and the crowd (a very big crowd) loves it. But that's what he wants to play. I guess someone could do what you suggest and sort of promote the clarinet, making the music they are playing means to get something else (a lot of audience). Actually I doubt it would work though. But for some people there is music they want to play so why should they play something else instead of what they want and feel passionate about...?
This reminds me of a story. A guest conductor is coming to perform with a big orcherstra. Rehearsal starts and when the orchestra starts to play one of the violinists starts twitching and making very strange angry faces. The conductor stops imediately and asks him if he is sick or there is a problem. The violinist says there is no problem, it's just that he really hates music...
In theory, oo play music other than what you want to play to have a bigger audience, or play in bigger halls, etc. sounds to me like sacrificing a part of your life. I guess it all depends on what part you want to sacrifice and your priorities.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-07-18 06:10
clarnibass wrote:
> In theory, to play music other than what you want to play to
> have a bigger audience, or play in bigger halls, etc. sounds to
> me like sacrificing a part of your life. I guess it all depends
> on what part you want to sacrifice and your priorities.
It's not about playing music one doesn't want to play just to get a bigger audience. I think it's rather about looking over the fence and discover a lot of music one hasn't thought about yet. Some people are doing that all the time, else we'd still confine ourselves to classical repertoire.
I do think it's the instrument - every instrument has its own reputation, because of the sound, because of the known players, because of the repertoire traditionally played. It's not really surprising that Lisa Simpson plays a bari sax while Adrian Monk has a clarinet, to stay with fictitious characters.
--
Ben
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Author: allencole
Date: 2008-07-18 06:16
Here are a couple of factors that we could stand to tackle:
1 - As a general group, our interests are not wide-ranging. Rare enough is the clarinetist actually interested in classical music. Percentages of those interested in jazz, pop or world music drop off even more dramatically. There are a lot of individual exceptions, and many of those are present on this BB, but if you look at even the average music major, curiosity is curiously missing.
2 - As intense as the training is, the curriculum of an applied clarinet major is extremely narrow. It's good job training for a symphony seat, a service band or a college professorship, but usually involves no training in other styles even just to read them properly. (Let alone improvise) You may learn to play something with quarter tones, multiphonics and a circular staff, but not enough to swing as you play a show book. College students generally have to seek this sort of training on their own.
3 - One reason for the above two items is that the education of band and orchestra musicians is dominated by players who limit their own scope, as did the folks who taught them. Teachers are very strong influences, and I've had a couple in my own life who counseled me against pursuing the very things that help me survive today. This is not to say that we don't have some good, versatile, open-mined folks in the trenches. But I think that most are addicted to what I believe GBK called 'clarinetism.'
A second reason is a decline in skill and interest levels for young players in school programs. Every day, music curricula in the secondary schools becomes more a creature of itself, and therefore more isolated from anything mainstream. There is so much educational school band and orchestra music that real classics have become an all-too-rare treat that students don't get the chance to acquire a taste for.
4 - The bottom line of most routine music work (let alone real creative efforts) is that to be in the game you need to be able to make up your own part while possibly teaching parts to other players, or in many cases be able to write good arrangements. This is rarely high on the list of tasks for an applied clarinet major in college. Most college educated players who have these abilities are jazz-oriented, and that area of pursuit also leads to an intrinsic understanding of theory and arranging. Most students on the orchestral track would consider the study of theory and composition to be too much burden to add to their curriculum. (and they may well be right)
5 - Largely due to the 'clarinetism' in our upbringing, we tend dismiss less-than-stellar players with less-than-perfect technique who actually have considerable merit in terms of creativity, stylistic understanding, or audience rapport. Intense jealousy flares at talk of their success, and we treat them with disdain because we know better players who we consider more deserving. As an overall group, we could not be less supportive. (which is not to say that there aren't plenty of jazzers with the same shortcoming)
Two solutions seem worth examining. One is an attitude adjustment on our part, although I'm somewhat preaching to the choir here.
The second solution involves reexamining how we educate tomorrows clarinet players--particularly at undergrad level. Are our priorities straight? Are there trade-offs that we should be making?
Allen Cole
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-07-18 11:35
mnorswor,
Your original post said "your point is?"
I'm sorry but I'm having trouble interpreting this as "but simply to ask what someone is doing to try and remedy something that he complained about."
IMHO, you were somewhat combative. I don't know how they do it at eastern universities but at the mid-western ones that I have been a faculty member at (still teach for SIU, BTW), your terseness could be viewed as somewhat non-collegial. I believe that we try to be a community of scholars here on this BB as well.
You get my point, right?
HRL
Post Edited (2008-07-18 16:40)
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Author: mnorswor
Date: 2008-07-18 17:38
Hank,
You've combined two separate posts that were in response to two separate posts.
Combative? I asked a simple question in a simple manner. I'm sorry you see that as combative. I see it as asking a direct question, something I do regardless of my geographic location and something my colleagues have always appreciated, in many geographic locations around the world.
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Author: hans
Date: 2008-07-18 19:41
mnorswor,
Sorry - I agree with Hank. You needled GBK and I thought it was rude. All GBK did was note the problem of underappreciation of the instrument and that didn't warrant a 3rd degree fom you, even if you play well, have "advanced degrees", and some school affiliations.
Like another poster, I have volunteered in schools to help students learn to play their clarinets and saxes. So.... what have you done for the clarinet, besides write a nice resume?
Hans
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Author: mnorswor
Date: 2008-07-18 19:57
Hans,
The original post from GBK did not note the underappreciation of the instrument. That happened later after the original question. Please refer to above and you'll find that his original statement had nothing to do with that. His original statement was negative and thus I responded. And frankly, if asking one question qualifies as a third degree, god help us all. You should also note that when GBK did actually "answer" the question, I thanked him for it and then asked an additional question. We're adults here yes?
In response to your question, what have I done besides write a nice resume....
I work with a lot of community organizations including the Community Music Center of Boston, Community Music Works in RI and with several other groups that regularly donate their time to helping kids appreciate music. I have the students in my studio teach a certain number of unpaid lessons to kids who cannot afford lessons and I myself have taught hundreds of hours of lessons for free. I do workshops, clinics, I speak at conventions around the Northeast held by MMEA, NYMEA, etc. I donate unused reeds to school programs that can't afford supplies, I work with a partner in rebuilding used student instruments which are then donated to students and school programs, I run an annual Clarinet Day in Boston which is open to all, I partner with the Boston Conservatory and New England Conservatory's outreach programs and give free concerts at senior centers all around the Boston area and I work with Rico and Buffet (my two wonderful sponsors) to incite a love of the clarinet and music through their various programs. Additionally, I actively commission new pieces and have recently been awarded grants from the Barlow Foundation and the Fromm Foundation and to date have given over 100 world premieres of works by composers from around the globe in an effort to expand our literature. I also volunteer at a summer chamber music camp held near Boston every year for 2 weeks and coach ensembles of kids from 5-16 years old for free.
Thanks.
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Author: hans
Date: 2008-07-18 20:22
mnorswor,
Your efforts on behalf of the clarinet community are certainly commendable and set a wonderful example.
Our interpretations of GBK's first comment: "it sounded like the audience was comprised of about 15 people", apparently differ.
You're welcome.
Hans
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-07-18 20:51
allencole wrote:
> The second solution involves reexamining
> how we educate tomorrows clarinet players--
> particularly at undergrad level. Are our priorities straight?
Although we are straying far from the original points made above, I feel this must be addressed.
Recently a very large university on Long Island (Stony Brook) stopped accepting candidates for their PhD track in English, simply because there are so few English professorship jobs available at US universities. They realize that the current market is flooded so they refuse to turn out even more candidates than would ever be needed in our lifetime. In conjunction, they have cut a number of English professors from their own staff as a reflection of the current employment market trends.
Perhaps, with the current glut of fine clarinetists, continually coming out of universities with performing degrees, hoping to make a living through playing their instrument, it may be time we get brutally honest with these students and tell them the reality of the job market in conjunction with the public's waning love of the clarinet.
I can understand college professors' reluctance to do so as this will cut into the number of prospective students seeking entry to performance degree programs, but perhaps it is high time these professors stop thinking of their own job security.
Remember - An advanced performance degree makes you suitable for the competitive world of musical performance and college level teaching. Little else...
Both are fields which are currently shrinking at an alarming rate.
...GBK
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-07-18 22:07
mnorswor,
I appreciated the private email exchange. I believe we each understand each other better which is what is really important. And what a treat to find out that we have had the same teacher in the past. It is a small world.
The activities you have outlined above are wonderful and you are to be commended. I look forward to you making significant contributions to the clarinet community. I know that there are many here on the BB that will also profit from your involvement through postings.
Regards,
HRL
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2008-07-19 05:00
It's an interesting video and no doubt Bok is a fine musican...but the bass clarinet is not a solo instrument and often times is beastly listening.
Sometimes a small audience merely indicates a small interest. Nothing the matter with that. Sometimes culivated tastes are the most satisfying.
This is a lively thread...try to play nice guys.
Clarinet Redux
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2008-07-19 05:45
The reason for the small audience may have been missed by everybody who has posted so far --- I will probably get char-broiled for writing this, but personally I can't stand Mr. Bok's sound (though I'm in awe of his technique) -- maybe his audience is so small because very few people enjoy the sound he produces on the instrument?
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Author: Bart
Date: 2008-07-19 12:15
David – I doubt that a performer with a 'better' sound will attract bigger crowds. I think it's down to the programme/repertoire here. My view: this type of music is interesting only to a specialist audience and is just not easy enough on the ear to ever attract a larger audience.
I live in London, go to about 30 classical music events a year here (and have a weak spot for woodwind events) plus even more jazz gigs – but won't book for this type of specialist stuff more than once or twice a year, and I'd have to go on my own. Few, if any, friends would want to come along to a performance like this, however skilled a performer Mr Bok is. The audience votes with its feet, and apparently finds other repertoire more interesting, entertaining, or otherwise worthy of a visit.
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Author: nes
Date: 2008-07-19 13:13
mnorswor,
silly guy, you get offended so easily i do not know how you cope.
The truth is:
GBK (in my opinion) made a joke. He is a funny guy, and serious and more Im sure,
BUT I'm sure he was just making a comment which WAS NOT NEGATIVE.
The NEGATIVITY started when YOU first spoke, in my opinion, and others here, i am sure.
Thanks for your time.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-07-19 13:34
I listened to the whole piece again. To be honest - and as much as I like "odd" instrumentations - I wouldn't have gone in the first place, or maybe left in the intermission.
Perhaps I'm a simpleton re my music taste, but for some reason I like to hear a rhythm, a theme, some recurring patterns. Nothing against a cadenza, but when the whole piece consists of cadenzas - well, I'm just not into too avantgardistic stuff.
When I'm noodling on a horn, it probably doesn't sound all that different, except from technical brillance, of course, but I wouldn't expect anyone to find my esoteric honking interesting.
That should in no way criticise the players - I was commenting solely on the music style. But if one's programming such pieces, one shouldn't be overly surprised when only hardcore fans show up. So...should we dump all that challenging-to-listen-to stuff in favour of wail-along Disney tunes? Certainly not. I'm always grateful to find a broad choice on YouTube, but if that's enough to make an instrument (whatever instrument, not just clarinet) popular?
Don't know if I would've paid for that performance either. ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: William
Date: 2008-07-19 15:20
It all depends on what the general public wants to hear and I really fear that with the advent of electronically generated sound and the popularity of game boys, pc's, Ipods, etc, our concern about the future of the clarinet may be just the tip of the iceberg. Major orchestras everywhere are experiancing declining audience numbers and the wind ensemble that can sustain a regular concert season with adequate ticket sales is quite rare. With the rise in cost of supplies, building maintainance and staff salaries, school district budgets are in serious finacial trouble and, as a result, are cutting back on their "special program" offerings. And, most often, those first cut are the fine arts--orchestra, band and chorus. My real fear is not just for the future popularity of the clarinet, but for the complete dismise of the public school music program for lack of public interest and fiscal (tax) support. And if that happens, live orchestral and wind ensemble music will quickly go the way of the Rennaisance madrigal singers.
What we clarinetists and musicians in general can do to sway the publics interest back to "live" music should be our concern--not "who said what??"
So, let's stop fighting and come up with a real solution. Personally (given my skill levels and notoriety) all I can do is what I originally posted--continue to play my clarinets and saxophones for the public as much as possible and to help beginners get started in their own live musical experiances. BTW--wasn't it our good friend Anker Bilk who was the last clarinetist to catch the general publics "ear" and sell a million records?? OK--who's next......
Post Edited (2008-07-19 15:29)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-07-21 04:43
>> but the bass clarinet is not a solo instrument
So how do you explain the sevel excellent and very successful bass clarinet soloists...? An instrument is solo or not in how it is used, not because of the instrument itself, at least most of the times.
>> I listened to the whole piece again. To be honest - and as much as
>> I like "odd" instrumentations - I wouldn't have gone in the first place,
>> or maybe left in the intermission.
Isn't this the exact attitude you wrote against?
>> Perhaps I'm a simpleton re my music taste, but for some reason
>> I like to hear a rhythm, a theme, some recurring patterns.
Actually the piece in the YouTube link had all of these. But I didn't like it either, for different reasons it seems, plus objectively the composition is too naive IMO.
>> but I wouldn't expect anyone to find my esoteric honking interesting.
Why not? If your "esoteric honks" make sense, have musical ideas, etc. the why wouldn't someone who realize that want to hear it? But a person who plays "weird" music needs o be able to hear and understand the ideas of the music as opposed music which sound the same to some people but is actually completely different. It took me a few years to learn to understand these ideas in music that actually come before style or genre, etc. is even in the picture.
BTW about the instrument itself, the impression I get from many non-musicians is that clarinet is one of the instruments they like the most. They specifically like the sound which most simply describe as very beautiful. Of course it's not everyone, but on average based on everything I see and hear more people like clarinet than almsot all other instruments. But maybe it is different here because of the culture coming from klezmer music, etc.
Nitai
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-07-21 06:52
clarnibass wrote:
> >> I listened to the whole piece again. To be honest - and as much as
> >> I like "odd" instrumentations - I wouldn't have gone in the first place,
> >> or maybe left in the intermission.
>
> Isn't this the exact attitude you wrote against?
Not necessarily. I don't automatically like every piece of music, even when I welcome someone tries something off the beaten paths.
> >> Perhaps I'm a simpleton re my music taste, but for some reason
> >> I like to hear a rhythm, a theme, some recurring patterns.
>
> Actually the piece in the YouTube link had all of these.
When you say so...maybe it was too subtle for me to notice.
> If your "esoteric honks" make sense, have musical
> ideas, etc. the why wouldn't someone who realize that want to
> hear it?
Dunno. I don't find myself very interesting, after all, it's just warmup and finger training, nothing expressive let alone original or interesting. I never tried to hear whether a lick made a musical sense or not.
--
Ben
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Author: William
Date: 2008-07-21 16:28
Personally, I liked the sound of the bass clarinet with the trombone. And I enjoyed the music itself. But thats just "me", a predjudiced listening clarinetist. The problem is--as suggested by GBK & pursued by Norsworthy--how do we re-tune the ears of the general public to be more acceptive of our music and therebye increase the popularity of the clarinet or live insturmental music in general over the current pop, grundge, and rap, etc, electonically amplified/generated genre?? And what are "you" doing about it???
Post Edited (2008-07-21 23:25)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-07-21 16:39
William wrote:
> How do we re-tune the ears of the general public to be more acceptive of
> our music and therebye increase the popularity of the clarinet or live
> insturmental music in general over the current pop, grundge and
> rap genre electonically amplified/generated genre?? And what
> are "you" doing about it???
I play in a wind band (and, as a member of the board, take care of PR activities). I'm performing ~ 12 concerts per year, all free & public except one.
Not much, I know, but every quaver helps. 
--
Ben
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