 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: bill28099
Date: 2008-07-08 17:37
In the Urtext version of Mozart's Requiem (2006 Phillip Leger) the basset horn line is marked with a double treble clef. What is the significance of such a marking? Could it be just that the 1st and 2nd part are printed on the same line?
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: larryb
Date: 2008-07-08 19:41
From what I can tell, Mozart wrote the basset horn part to be played as written (at least the parts that he wrote). That, at least, is how the manuscript score looks to me.
I think Bill's guess makes sense (two parts written on same line).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-07-08 22:06
Is this the Bareneiter parts? As I have both of those and there are no double treble clefs. I think it's a printing error, the parts are to be played as written.
Peter Cigleris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: larryb
Date: 2008-07-09 02:23
It does appear in Mozart's manuscript score that he wrote two treble clefs at the beginning of the basset horn line on the first page (Introitus). It also looks like he did the same with the trumpets (clarini), which also share a line.
Does it appear that way in your parts? Or are you looking at a score?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: rsholmes
Date: 2008-07-09 11:04
Unless I'm missing something, the lowest and highest notes in those parts as written (reading it as treble clef in the normal octave) are E4 and C6. Which seems odd: why specify basset horns and then use such a restricted range? Even an octave lower this would be playable on a standard clarinet.
In the Recordare the basset horns are written on separate staves, with single treble clefs.
Edit to add: The end of my first paragraph is nonsense of course. The basset horn is in F, so if the E4 is to be played as E3 it'll sound as A2, which is way off the soprano clarinet range.
Post Edited (2008-07-09 13:35)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: larryb
Date: 2008-07-09 11:12
rsholmes,
perhaps the answer to your question is that Mozart, in his genius, recognized the unique timbre of the basset horn and wanted that sound as part of his Requiem. Although the parts could be played on clarinet, the sound quality would be different.
I know many would disagree with that, but they'll have to take it up with Mozart, not me.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: rsholmes
Date: 2008-07-09 13:30
(Edited to reflect my realization I'd made a mistake in my previous post)
Anyway, to get back to the original question, in the Dover edition of the full score, which is a republication of the Breitkopf and Hartl edition, the basset horns are on a single staff with a single treble clef in the same octave as in the urtext score linked above. (You can see a limited preview in Google Books.) On the other hand, here http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/texto/Octavetrebleclef.html it says the double clef means it should sound an octave lower than written, which to me makes more sense. Note that the two bassoons share a staff, too, but have only a single bass clef.
Post Edited (2008-07-09 13:39)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bill28099
Date: 2008-07-09 16:19
No, the bassoon is written in one bass and one alto clef. What about the trumpet with its double treble clef, would you transpose it down an octave also?
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: rsholmes
Date: 2008-07-09 16:46
No, the bassoon part is written on a staff with a single bass clef at the beginning, followed by the key signature, then the time signature, then a rest, and then an alto clef sign -- the two clefs are not adjacent at the beginning of the staff as they are on the basset horn and trumpet staves. So the alto clef supersedes the bass clef.
I know even less about trumpets than about basset horns, but I note the 2nd trumpet comes in on a written G3, so presumably your implication that the double clef should not be interpreted as treble clef an octave down is correct. Either that or the double clef on that staff was an error on Mozart's part.
I don't know what Mozart meant. I merely point out a source saying the double clef means it's to be played an octave lower. Whether that's correct for the basset horn part here, I don't claim to know. Since it doesn't appear to make sense for the trumpet part then maybe not, but since the bassoon staff clef isn't doubled it seems there's an inconsistency however you interpret it.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-07-09 16:51
Having just looked at the score from the link i can say that whoever did it was wrong to put a double treble clef for the bassets. Why? Because if you actually played what a double treble clef tells you to do then the bassets would be lower than the bassoons which is not right. Take away a clef and you have the right range. The trumpet parts also have the wrong clef, they also just need a single one. Again the part would be far too low. Also where are the trombone parts in this score?
Peter Cigleris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarionman
Date: 2008-07-09 17:44
I had never seen before a double treble clef to indicate that the part should be plat 8vb. But the manuscript does not lie. It shows the double treble clef. If we agree or disagree with it, that is what Mozart wrote and the composer is always right most of the time.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: larryb
Date: 2008-07-09 19:02
Attachment: Doc10.doc (40k)
The attachment shows a close up of what Mozart wrote for the basset horns.
And here's a link to an explanation of the use of double clefs by Mozart:
http://www.mozartforum.com/VB_forum/showthread.php?p=24426#poststop
Post Edited (2008-07-09 20:29)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2008-07-09 19:08
I played this 8 years ago but I don't remember any strange double treble clef or else I ignored it and so did the other basset hornist! I may have a page of this that I xeroxed to annotate during the rehearsals so as not to mess up the real (rented) part. Will check it to tonight if I still have it to see whether the double treble clef was there or not.
It is a beautiful piece and quite haunting on the basset horns. I think with clarinets it would sound too bright. That clearly was not Mozart's intent! A lovely end to a great career.
Eefer guy
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: larryb
Date: 2008-07-09 19:30
This double treble clef won't be in the part - just the score, if at all.
It's not in the NMA version of the score that's on-line.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: John25
Date: 2008-07-10 11:00
I have played the basset-horn part in Mozart'z "Requiem" 55 times and have never seen a double clef at the beginning of a part. The parts are to be played exactly as printed on the Urtext score. I can only think that Mozart put a double clef because there were two instruments on one stave, but that very much a supposition.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2008-07-10 12:12
Yeah my part had normal markings too. There certainly was no confusion.
Eefer guy
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bill28099
Date: 2008-07-10 13:09
My clarinet teacher who is also a conductor had a different take on the situation.
"Just now had time to take a brief look at the music attachment (Mozart Requiem). I think the "double" treble clef signs are used for those instruments which are transposing instruments. Just play your part as though you were playing on your regular clarinet. What will come out will sound a perfect fifth lower (same as English Horn)."
Now that would explain why the trumpet line also has the double clef and the bassoon line is single although showing both parts.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
Post Edited (2008-07-10 13:15)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: rsholmes
Date: 2008-07-10 13:19
The editors of the edition you performed from made a decision regarding the interpretation of Mozart's double clef. So there was no confusion about what the editors meant. Question is, were they confused about what Mozart meant?
If the double clef means to play an octave lower, then it remains to be explained why a double clef was used on the trumpet staff where there are notes in the bottom octave of the trumpet range.
If it means something else, then it remains to be explained why Mozart used the double clef to mean something other than what it usually means.
In particular, if it means both basset horns on that staff are in treble clef, then it remains to be explained why there is no double clef on the bassoon staff.
No matter what it means, something needs explaining. No doubt there are reasonable explanations, but what are they?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
