 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Liam Murphy
Date: 2008-07-04 01:32
Dear BBoard,
I am aware that this topic has been extensively discussed in the not-so-recent past. However I have a few more questions specifically regarding the nature and repair of this problem.
To make sure I've diagnosed the problem properly, this is what happened:
Halfway through practicing some runs, my L.H. C#/F# key went limp and failed to function properly: i.e. its flaccid state rendered the key inoperable.
Upon inspection, the pale-grey pin (nylon pin?) that connects the mechanism to the R.H. version had broken, with the thin end lodged into the actual key, and the fatter end sliding around freely in the connecting arm (that which depresses the R.H. C#/F# whenever the L.H. one is depressed)
Now then, this problem seems to mostly be applicable to Buffet clarinets - I play a Selmer Signature. Does the Selmer strain of this design-flaw change the scenario?
For the repair people out there: is the repair necessary, if so will it be quick and cheap? A past suggestion was to own a supply of replacement pins, where could I purchase these? Are the Selmer variety different to the Buffet? Would I be able to whip in a new pin and start honking again? - I think not because there is the matter of having a lump of nylon stuck in the end of the actual key that I have no means of getting out.
I treat my clarinet very carefully, so could the broken pin be purely a result of almost daily use for about a year? - if not, how best is it to avoid this problem from recurring in the future?
Summary of questions:
- Is the problem a broken nylon pin?
- Do Selmer and Buffet clarinet have the exact same design flaw (same pin and all)?
- Is a repair necessary, if so will it be quick and cheap?
- Where can I buy replacement pins? - preferably from somewhere in Australia
- How did it happen?
- Is the problem avoidable?
- Can the problem be repaired by me (a high-school student)
Thank you for your time,
Liam
P.S. Please excuse any inclusion of previously asked questions, the 2007/2008 thread was about 500 posts long...
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-07-04 03:46
Disclaimer- I am not a technician.
I know that if you have a Buffet, you can contact them at their US location and ask them to send some to you, but since you play a Selmer, I don't know if you can do that. Try giving Selmer's US location a call or E-mail regading the subject. Like Buffet they probably see this problem allot so I would imagine they'd have pins to give you.
I have an R13 and have only played Buffet and have never had a pin snap. I think the prssure we put on our keys while playing is different for each of us. That's what causes them to beak, assuming that your instrument is well cared for
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
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Author: DougR
Date: 2008-07-04 04:52
After reading the big long thread you allude to, I had the nylon pins on my R-13 removed. The tech machined two steel pins at US$20 apiece and that presumably will have taken care of the issue until approximately doomsday. I believe he said one could do one's own repairs, IF one had a lathe and knew how to use it.
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-07-04 05:01
DougR,
Just curious, but do they make more noise than the plastic pins? How much play if any do they have?
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-07-04 07:36
I would change the broken pin to a metal one. It isn't noisy because the metal pin is slightly loose and you add a material to quiet it (like bladder).
He seems to be from Australia so I don't know if contacting the US location is the best option? I don't know about Selmer, but I know a few American repairers who told me they waited months (and still wait) for those nylon pins from Buffet. Contacting them in France might or might not be better. A local big Selmer dealer (if you have one) might have a better chance, but I think a repairer making a new one (which can problably be made from nylon, I just think metal is better) is probably much faster.
Quick and cheap depends on what you consider quick and cheap. The price DougR got is very reasonable and I would even say low. It doesn't need to take very long and probably can be done while you wait.
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Author: Eddydavik
Date: 2008-07-04 12:17
I had thought all Selmer clarinets had a single piece on there (pin is part of the key) as both mine are. This is the first I've heard of one being different.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2008-07-05 02:46
Ryder:
I don't notice increased noise from the steel pins. The left-hand B lever has a tiny bit of play, but it's not noisy, nor is the play off-putting. I imagine the amount of play would vary by the repair person, and the tolerances used to machine the pin. It looks like my tech put some sort of cloth buffer between the piece with the pin in it, and the piece the pin goes into. (My bass, an old Selmer, also has that buffer-cloth or whatever you call it which is what the technician added when I asked him to quiet the key noise. The bass is pretty old.) My A clarinet (Buffet) had steel pins originally, and they're nice and tight with no kind of buffer-paper at all.
I know I've played ancient clarinets that made more noise than a clothes washer full of pebbles when you used those left-hand levers, but that's fixable. A nylon pin evidently isn't that easy to come by (part of that humongous long previous thread was taken up by a discussion of how vague and non-committal the Buffet parts people were when asked about whether the pins could be ordered or not--even if you were a repair person. In fact, as I remember, Buffet refused to sell them retail at all. Possibly that's changed?).
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-07-05 06:07
DougR
I know in a recent thread tht someone went to the buffet factory in france to hand pick a clarinet. They said they were supplied by buffet with a stock of pins just in case. Of course that was at the actual factory and things may be different at the US location. If in fact they refuse to sell/give those pins to anyone, I would be disgusted with them and buy another brand. If they know these break they shoud either make the pins from metal, or supply us with extra plastic pins.
They gave me a free hat and some pencils. I can't imagine a plastic pin would cost more to manufcture and ship than a hat.
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-07-05 06:51
- Is the problem a broken nylon pin?
Yes
- Do Selmer and Buffet clarinet have the exact same design flaw (same pin and all)?
Yes, they both use an easily broken plastic. They could have used a far stronger plastic, but did not. Shame!!!
The diameters are different - Buffet & Selmer.
- Is a repair necessary, if so will it be quick and cheap?
Most technicians will not have pins. they are difficult to get because both companies are not too interested in good service for pats.
- Where can I buy replacement pins? - preferably from somewhere in Australia
A local agent with foresight may have some. If not, It is probably best to get a technician to make metal ones. This will cost more than you think because there is a fair bit of intricate messing around involved.
If you (or your technician) order a couple from Selmer Paris, my past experience suggests that 200 my arrive, with an appropriate bill, or your correspondence may be repeatedly ignored for months if not years. Very French!
I have Selmer ones in stock and can sell you one or two. NZ$2 each + $2 pp.
(Kraus sells only to technicians, but has started producing screw-in stainless steel ones for Buffet. The hole in the lever needs to be threaded.)
- How did it happen?
Probably by inadvertently squeezing on the (LH) lever's touchpiece at the same time as pushing down on the key (RH) near the junction. Or pressing down on the key while pressing on the lever near the junction. You possibly do this while polishing the keys, or general handling.
- Is the problem avoidable?
Yes, by not doing the above.
- Can the problem be repaired by me (a high-school student)
Take the lever off. (Actually you will have to take both levers off together, and replace them together.) Heat the end and I think the nylon (?) stump will pop out. If it doesn't, you may have to drill it out. Jam a bit of tooth pick in there, (possibly glue it with superglue) and cut it off to a suitable length.
Post Edited (2008-07-05 11:16)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-07-05 12:01
As usual, Gordon, topnotch info. The comment by someone about making your own if you have a lathe was interesting.....true but not necessarily a simple lathe job. I'm almost ashamed to admit having used a toothpick end successfully for quite a long time on one horn. I rather suspect that the broken "nylon" pins are as much the victims of changes in humidity as anything.
Bob Draznik
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-07-05 13:03
Hmm, given the difficult-to-obtain status of these pins, couldn't bits of monofilament fishing lines or nylon bowden inner tubes (from R/C modelling shops) be used? I remember the latter were hollow and a 0.5mm steel wire could be inserted for reinforcement.
--
Ben
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Author: DougR
Date: 2008-07-05 14:35
Well, in a feeble and probably pointless defense of Buffet, as I understand it they went to nylon pins to make the key mechanism quieter.
What's IN-defensible about Buffet is the lack of redress for owners of premium instruments who are suddenly stranded with an unplayable horn because of a simple, cheap, scarce part breaking.
I consider the US$40 I had to spend for the pins as ultimately pretty cheap: it liberates me from worry about pins breaking, and takes me out of the whole discussion about "How can a major clarinet manufacturer release an insufficiently bench-tested design and be so sloppy, dilatory, off-handed and ultimately feckless about remedying the problems it has caused its customers?"
Except, oops, here I am, back in the soup.
Signing off now!!
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-07-05 23:45
"...Hmm, given the difficult-to-obtain status of these pins, couldn't bits of monofilament fishing lines or nylon bowden inner tubes (from R/C modelling shops) be used?..."
It would work, but if it is a good fit, for silence and clean action, that pin needs to have a barrel shape, to stop it jamming at one extreme of travel. Ideally it also should be narrower than it is tall, as if it were crushed, side to side (but it is rare to see this much thought or effort put into them.) This is all because of the changing alignment (in more than one axis) of the pin with the hole during the travel of the key.
"... Well, in a feeble and probably pointless defense of Buffet, as I understand it they went to nylon pins to make the key mechanism quieter. "
I think it is probably more to do with cheaper production. The metal ones need to be covered with a material such as "goldbeaters skin", i.e. pad skin, to reduce noise, which all takes time. Plastic ones must be very cheap to produce - ready-shaped straight from a mould, but the metal ones probably need to be turned to shape on a lathe.
But there are some VERY strong plastics. Why didn't Buffet & Selmer make it out of say that (mouldable) plastic that is used for the adjustable buckles for the straps of a hiker's pack? Do they want mkore sales to go to Yamaha and Howarth?
Post Edited (2008-07-05 23:46)
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