 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-06-24 23:53
Hi
I'm performing the Messiaen Quartet in a couple of weeks and as it's my first time playing this piece (I've known it for a while) I wondered if anyone had any thoughts on the seating arrangements and also what to do during the solo movements. I saw it performed a few years ago now when the players went to another part of the stage to play their solo movements.
Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-06-25 00:26
Great piece. The violin has to sit with the strings facing the audience. The cello should sit opposite the violin and the clarinet in the middle in front of the piano but you and the cello could switch so the cello is in front of the piano and the clarinet is opposite the violin. I don’t think it is a good idea for the others to leave the stage while you play your solo movement but you could leave the stage and play from a short distance away. I’ve always done it with all of us just sitting in place so we can all play the next movement without a pause; it’s very effective that way, attaché. It’s you choice. Good luck, ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457 (Listen to a little Mozart, Live recording)
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2008-06-25 00:32
I agree with Ed. When I performed this piece we all just stayed in our seats. It was really a very wonderful experience sitting right next to your fellow performers while they play their respective solo movements.
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2008-06-25 00:53
Stay in your seats for all movements...
When I played this, we sat in sort of an arch in front of the piano
something like this (edit; this forum doesn't allow multiple spaces... so imagine the shape) :
PIANO
VCL
__
VLN | | CLR
As far as the solo clarinet movement... I'd play it exactly like this... ( Though I'm not sure who rated it two stars.... what a jerk.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fx6dGkJvN4
Cheers,
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
Post Edited (2008-06-25 00:56)
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Author: antaresclar
Date: 2008-06-25 00:58
Hello Peter,
I have performed this work numerous times with my quartet Antares (www.antares-music.com). I can tell you that everytime you perform this work it is quite an emotional experience, but that the first time is usually the most nerve racking! I would suggest having everyone stay on stage. But, I would suggest that all of you think about how you appear to the audience while the others are playing. You don't want to be fidgeting around, wanting to get the water out of the side keys, etc... as tempting as it will be! I have found that in addition to the technical difficulties in the piece, remaining motionless during the other's solos is a challenge all to itself, but it is of supreme importance to truly conveying the message of the piece. It is especially difficult to sit through the middle of the second movement while constantly thinking about the third! The heart usually starts going pretty fast during that time! Don't forget to breathe! Good Luck!
Garrick Zoeter
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-06-25 07:01
There aren't any "solo movements". To say so is to misunderstand the work. There are just movements where some of the instruments don't happen to have any notes to play. This is no different in principle from Pierrot Lunaire, where the instrumentation changes for every movement.
You shouldn't emphasise this by allowing players to move around, "soloists" to stand up and so on. Taken to the extreme, this would lead to the absurdity of the violin, clarinet and cello all having to come forward as "soloists" during the movement when the piano doesn't play.
Just play the music. In places where you have no notes to play, just sit there quietly.
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-06-25 14:46
I've performed this work 16 times or more, both in Canada and in the US, and recorded it as well for Radio Canada. The seating is standard with the Violinst and Cellist seated so that their "F holes" face the audience. I always sat on the inside of the Cellist or in the middle of the ensemble. The only person who ever moved was the violinist who stood when she played the last piece, which is dedicated to Jesus, and like the rest of the work, a deeply spiritual and mystical ending .
There are two articles written on the performance and the work itself on my site, under "repertoire" http://clarinet.cc
Sherman Friedland
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-06-25 16:15
Thank you for your replies. At the moment we have been rehearsing it so that i'm in the middle which for me is fine. I suppose it's the viola chair really. I raised the question regarding being separate when doing the movements which don't involve everybody because I had seen it done and quite liked the fact that it does emphasize the movement in relation to the whole work and its religious meaning. The duos for VLN and piano, VC and piano are more religious than then the 'Abyss of the Birds', which is the struggle between the dreariness of time and the longing for light, and quite possibly freedom (from Stalag 8). We will be doing this with someone reading out Messiaen's own words on each movement before we play them.
Norbet wrote
"There aren't any "solo movements". To say so is to misunderstand the work...This is no different in principle from Pierrot Lunaire"
I don't think this is true. I believe that each movement is what it is in the total concept of the work, so therefore the 3rd movement is solo and the 5th and last movements are essentially duos with the last movement being from an earlier organ piece. Also to say that the Messiaen Quartet is no different in principle to Pierrot Lunaire is wrong, IMO. Having played Pierrot with the BCMG (Birmingham Contemporary Music Group) this piece is totally different. Pierrot is telling a story about the life of a troubled character, in this case Pierrot after the poems of Giraud. The Quartet is looking to a higher purpose, a purpose that most of mankind believe in regardless of what religion they are. The musical language is essentially spiritual and ethereal. Pierrot on the other hand is quite aggressive at times in reflection of the text.
Mr Friedland, thank you for the link, i'll check it out.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-06-25 16:23
In none of these seating arrangements can anyone make eye contact with the pianist. Shouldn't at least one player be able to communicate "facially" with the pianist?
I sort of believe in eye contact between the players when there is no conductor.
Bob Phillips
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-06-25 16:34
Bob
Your absolutely right. At the moment the violinist is sort of leading but there are occasions when I should like in the 'Dance of the Seven Trumpets' because of breathing. I'm sure we'll find a way in the venue as we're all competent chamber musicians.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-06-25 16:34
Peter - of course I wasn't suggesting that the Quartet was on the same subject, or emotionally similar, to Pierrot. I mentioned Pierrot only as an example of another piece which uses a changing cast of instruments. My view of the Quartet, and no doubt we shall continue to differ on this, is that it is conceived as a quartet throughout, that the music is presented throughout by four players, and the fact that not everyone plays in every movement is something that need not be emphasised by the way it is staged. Certainly I cannot see the artistic benefit in having the violinist stand for the last movement. This risks bringing it to the level of a dance band, with players taking turns to stand for their solos.
I also take issue with your claim that "The Quartet is looking to a higher purpose, a purpose that most of mankind believe in regardless of what religion they are." Not at all. The Quartet is about time, and it is about the idea in the Book of Revelation that "There shall be no more time." It is not about human purpose at all, in fact the human race doesn't really get a look in.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-06-25 17:03
Norbet, I understand your point and realise the work is about time but I feel that the last movement represents the arrival of God and or Jesus after the chaos caused by the trumpets of the Apocalypse who announce the end of time. The final movement, imo is the 'higher purpose'. Why? Well Messiaen's says so himself of the last movement,
"The progressive ascent toward the extremely high register represents the ascension of man towards his Lord, of the son of God toward his Father, of deified Man toward Paradise."
Surely this the 'higher purpose'? I'm in no way religious but from my own research into preparing the work this was the feeling that I got especially at the first rehearsal.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-06-25 17:10
No, it was not "conceived as a Quartet throughout". Messiaen first wrote the trio for Clarinet, Violin and Cello to determine if in fact, they were capable of understanding and playing "his language". Then, he wrote the quartet.
Post Edited (2008-06-25 17:25)
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-06-25 17:24
That of course, is absurd. Standing in a tribute to Jesus was the choice of the violinist, Denise Lupien, Concertmistress of Orchestra Metropolitain. It in no way, diminished it to the "level of a dance band" A dance band?
Have you played the work? Have you listened to, or analyzed the work? I think not.
Sherman Friedland
"The Eternity of Jesus Expansive solo violin, counterpart to the violoncello solo of the fifth movement. Why this second encomium? It addresses more specifically the second aspect of Jesus, Jesus the Man, the Word made flesh.... Its slow ascent toward the most extreme point of tension is the ascension of man toward his God, of the child of God toward his Father, of the being made divine toward Paradise"
Post Edited (2008-06-25 17:31)
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-06-25 17:35
Sherman wrote: "No, it was not "conceived as a Quartet throughout". Messiaen forst wrote the trio for Clarinet, Violin and Cello to determine if in fact, they were capable of understanding and playing "his language". Then, he wrote the quartet."
Source? You may be right, but other sources indicate that the trio movement was written first, not to test out the musicians, but simply because no piano was available in the prisoner-of-war camp. There is so much misinformation about this work, some of it from Messiaen himself, that it is hard to be sure.
But in any case, I don't think the origins of the movements are relevant. What matters is what Messiaen intended by the time he finished the work, not what he thought when he started to write it. Bach reused secular arias in sacred cantatas and vice-versa, but we don't insist on performing each aria in the style in which it was originally written. We perform it in the context of the work we are playing.
What matters even more than the composer's intentions is what works artistically with an audience in 2008, and I don't think that players jumping up and down like dance-band soloists is desirable. Some audience members will disagree with me, of course.
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-06-25 17:40
Round up the usual suspects, misinformation, intentions, etc, and of course, always quote a practice of Bach.
Play the piece. And then play it again, Sam.
Sherman Friedland
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-06-25 17:46
Sherman asks: "Have you played the work? Have you listened to, or analyzed the work? I think not."
Have I played it? No. I haven't acted in Hamlet either, but that wouldn't stop me criticising a performance that I thought was malconceived.
Have I listened to it? Yes. Many times, in several versions.
Have I analysed it? In the sense of understanding its overall structure, yes. In the sense of a formal bar-by-bar technical analysis, no. Not relevant, I don't think. What matters here is the emotional impact of the work, not the technical details of how it has been realised, most of which are lost on 99% of listeners anyway.
I really hope that Messiaen didn't believe that nobody should have an opinion on his music unless they had played it and analysed it. In fact I really hope Sherman doesn't believe that either, but it's what he appears to be implying.
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Author: mnorswor
Date: 2008-06-25 18:28
Peter,
I'm very inclined to agree with Garrick on his points. I've also done the work many times (over 50 actually) and each time I find it most difficult when I'm NOT playing. I tend to sweat quite a bit (for better or worse) and find it a bit un-nerving to just sit there and drip while the other players do their solo movements. I'm always sure to bring a handkerchief to mop my brow occasionally. I think it is OK to move a little bit, or shift positions while the other movements are happening as this normal and most likely won't be distracting. I personally think it's more distracting to get up and walk around or go to a different place.
I recall one performance where we did it in costume in the middle of an art exhibition on trees. They were black and white stills, either paintings, chalk drawings or photographs. For each of the solo movements, those not playing got up and left and went and sat "amongst the trees". I thought it was a very hokey idea form the get go but they were wonderful players and artists so I tagged along. In the end, the audience found it distracting and the reviewer mentioned the there was no sense of solemnity in this performance and that it was broken by the frequent interruptions from the players moving around.
For what it's worth....
All my best to you,
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-06-25 22:21
Michael
Thanks for your post. Same here i'm doing it because the other players are great musicians. It was great to be asked. I think we'll probably end up doing it the 'normal' way if there's such a thing? I'm just looking forward to the concert.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-06-25 22:55
Mr Friedland
Thank you for the link to the artical on your website. I have taken alot from part of it.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-06-27 09:20
One other question I have about this is, can anyone shed some light on the trill in the fast section. The Bb to Ab trill (throat area).
Many thanks
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2008-06-27 10:58
Well, somebody has to ask the question. The quartet is based on one translation of the words in the book of Revelation, and an imaginative musical interpretation of those words. Since it was written in Greek, what if the translation isn't quite what the writer intended? Another translation reads, "There will be no delay any longer." So not an end to time, but rather an end to a seeming delay in accomplishing something.
That translation probably would have been all that the composer had available to him at the time. But that would change the whole purpose for the quartet. Oh well! Just a thought.
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-06-27 13:06
Brenda - the New English Bible does indeed use the word "delay" to translate the Greek "chronos", and I understand that some French translations use "delai". In the context of that passage, "delay" does indeed make more sense: the angel is announcing the end of a time of waiting, not an end to the whole concept of time.
But it is not plausible to argue that this is what Messiaen intended.
The title of the Quartet is "Quatuor pour la Fin du Temps" which quite clearly means "End of Time". Moreover, the preface to the score quotes the Bible as:
"Je vis un ange plein de force, descendant le ciel, revêtu d’une nuée, ayant un arc-en-ciel sur la tête. Son visage était comme le soleil, ses pieds comme des colonnes de feu. Il posa son pied droit sur la mer, son pied gauche sur la terre, et, se tenant debout sur la mer et la terre, il leva la main vers le Ciel et jura par celui qui vit dans les siècles des siècles, disant : il n’y aura plus de temps; mais au jour de la trompette du septième ange, le mystère de Dieu se consommera."
To muddy the waters still further, http://www.entretemps.asso.fr/Nicolas/Textes/Messiaen.htm suggests that the Messiaen did not quote the Bible exactly, but deliberately changed the wording to arrive at the meaning he intended, which is an end to the concept of time.
Note also that the movement titles include words like "Eternity" and "Immortality", and one movement is marked "Infinitely Slowly", consistent also with the "concept of time" interpretation.
Oddly enough, there is a vinyl edition, featuring Messiaen on the piano and the original cellist Etienne Pasquier, in which the title is translated into English as "Quatuor [sic] for the end of Ages". The rest of the English is pretty funky too.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2008-06-27 14:45
I saw James Campbell play this once with the Orford Quartet.. and for the Abyss of the Birds he was under a single spotlight..which was very effective..although the piece is quite long and loosely structured in terms of instrumentation one also has to step up to the plate and let the music out..it is chamber music but with alot of tricky solo things on clarinet.
I played this about 10 years ago and can say the first movement is the part that can lead to fiatigue so try to remain calm and play accurately in this movement........
.if you have to drink water... like swabbing should be done between movements with out drawing attention to oneself.
...when you need to blend do so but don't forget the soloistic elements are very important and need not just played correctly but with a feeling of freedom too.
A fine recording of this recently done is Wolgang Meyer on EMI and he is brilliant throughout.
David Dow
Post Edited (2008-06-27 14:46)
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-06-27 16:54
This particular fast Bb to Ab trill is played with the Ab spatule and trilling on the third trill key(on the right).
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2008-06-27 17:28
It's worth noting that more recent research by Rebecca Rischin shows that the 3rd movement, Abyss of the Birds, was actually the first movement written and probably not conceived as part of a larger piece until later. Messiaen even showed it to the clarinetist prior to his confinement. Take from that what you will, but let's be clear that although the work is one single entity, there is definitely a solo movement.
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-07-06 21:15
I've just noticed this will be performed as a late-night concert at the London Proms, on 4 September. Martin Fröst will play the clarinet, Anthony Marwood the violin. Both of them have a strong interest in the theatrical - will be interesting to see how they present it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/2008/whatson/season/
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-07-07 12:22
Well, I did the concert last night and it was really well received. We had never played this before as a group so it will be interesting to perform it again as I' sure our experiences will be different. We decided to just stay in our places for our movements. I actually feel this is better as one is still part of the overall piece even though you may not be involved playing wise. We all so had a 'narrator' reading out Messiaen's own words on each movement.I felt that this broke the piece up a little but found it help in the performance of the movements The other players said the same thing but from an audience perspective they found it extremely useful in accessing the music and also the spiritual side of the work. The concert was recorded so i'll see if I can post my movement for you all to have a listen.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-09-05 13:55
Further to my post dated 6th July, I attended the BBC Proms performance last night.
I am pleased to say that there was no attempt to dramatise the work; the players remained in their seats throughout, and there was no variation of lighting. There were no readings between movements, though BBC presenter Verity Sharp came on stage to give a brief spoken introduction to the work - I've no idea why they bothered.
Fröst was marvellous as ever. I thought the cellist struggled a wee bit with intonation on a couple of notes towards the end of the fifth movement. The broadcast http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00d6zv0/ has nothing but praise for him after the performance - and Verity Sharp is a cellist so I guess she ought to know.
The seating plan was piano at the back, with the pianist side on to the audience, violin-cello-clarinet in that order in front. This may have been chosen rather than the more obvious violin-clarinet-cello in order to improve sound projection from the cello. However I think it was a mistake as it meant the cellist could not see the pianist during his duo. The clarinet player, of course, doesn't need to see the pianist during the third movement.
For the equipment freaks out there, Fröst was playing an instrument with an extra pad on the lower joint, and no bell-ring - I assume this was a Tosca.
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