 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Jameslyons
Date: 2008-06-23 22:37
I hear people talking about different ligatures all the time. At first I thought they were just talking aesthetics...they like gold to silver, or leather to aluminum, but the more I hear about ligatures the more I suspect that people consider them to be instrumental in music production.
Don't ligatures just hold a reed? And if not, how do you manipulate them to produce different sounds?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-06-23 23:09
Think of this like mouthpieces and their effect on your sound (and intonation although that has little meaning here). A ligature doesn't have as great an effect on your tone as a mouthpiece does, but it still has some (enough to talk about).
When it comes to different metals (ie. gold, silver, aluminium, nickel) I can't say. Different materials give you different tonal qualities. For example, metal usually has a brighter sound, while leather usually has a darker sound.
metal vs plastic, leather vs metal, etc...
If you've look at different ligatures, you'll see that they all seem to apply pressure to the reed in different places. Some say one way is better than the other, but it's mostly personal preference, in other words what works best for you.
To further perpetuate the confusion and frustration, there are also "hybrid ligatures" which are generally a leather ligature with a metal plate to hold the reed down, like the Vandoren leather (my ligature of choice), and the BG Revalation and Super Revalation. I beleive the Rovner Eddie Daniels is also a "hybrid" style. Although they won't save you gas, they attempt to give you benifits of both metal and leather.
That's just a basic overview of some of the opinions and ideas behind the ligature, and I'm sure as I type this someone else is typing you book's worth of reason and excuses to use this, or that, so I'll leave it to them for the rest.
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-06-24 00:44
The simple reason a ligature makes a difference if that it allows the reed to vibrate differently for different players. For the novice it many not make much difference but for the more advanced player looking for a certain response, tone quality or feeling it could make a big difference. Some ligatures dampen the high frequencies more than others, some brighten the sound more than others and some make the sound duller or darker than others. Each to their own. I suggest you try several types if you can and you might see a difference if you are advanced enough to notice. I’m partial to the Rovners myself but I know many fine players use all different types, just like mouthpieces, reeds, and clarinets for that matter.
ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457 (Listen to a little Mozart, live performance)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-06-24 00:55
Ed got me...
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2008-06-24 01:50
Ligatures are very important to the Clarinet Macro-Economy because, unlike the clarinets themselves, ligatures are very cheap to produce and can be sold at very high profit margins. How they affect your playing is incidental......
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-06-24 02:14
David, you weren't supposed to let THAT one slip out!
Watch out, now. The Buffet Mafia hasn't had much to do lately so they nay send someone by to break your fingers or slit your lip! ![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif) Just to keep in practice, that is.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2008-06-24 03:12
The Buffet Mafia wouldn't dare set foot on my turf......
.....this is Couesnon Country.......... ![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jameslyons
Date: 2008-06-25 01:48
Hmm...
Well, Ed, Ryder, it sounds like I should consider buying different ligatures once I can play through to the high C without squeaking. Of course it could be the way my ligature holds the reed. I need to find a clarinet accessory store though.
I can't play in my rooming house and I'd love to practice on different mouthpieces and ligatures.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-06-25 01:54
When a young man in the later 40s and 50s, ligatures were always metal with two screws to the right, tightening the reed on the mouthpiece. I am tlking about the Eastern US.Then in the 60s, the Bonade ligature made its entrance, having two rails which aligned the reed correctly, or the way you wanted it. Then a bit later, a clarinetist took a pair of pliers and just ripped out a piece of the Bonade and turned it around, thus the reverse Bonade,then manufactured to the reverse with the screws on the other side and top still used by some currently. The mid 70s brought on the Rovners and their various textures and materials. The interesting thing about these is that the variations are really much less than forthcoming to changing or enhancing clarinet sound.
Nobody can play two ligatures with the same reed simultaneously, with the reed in the exact same place, so who can tell how it actually sounds.But one may feel something different, although different folk may have different opinions. There was between these somewhere a neat thing called the Harrison, expensive with all kinds of funny stamping in the shape of an H. This was of course discontinued, and then brought back by another company. There are of course the VD optimum which uses different plates to change the sound or to facilitate certains points of technic. The Daniels has eight plates , I think, and there are all kinds of revelatory pieces of chozerai(Yiddish:superflua) to put in between the reed and whatever is holding it on to the mouthpiece. There are evnen more exotic(read epxpensive) ones around, but nobody can prove their prowess in doing what?Nobody knows. Really, Its all feelings.....just like the song.
I have always used a ligature so that I can change clarinets , you know from Bb to A, without the thing coming apart in my hand, the reed on the floor, me bending down, picking it up and missing the entrance. Afte that it becomes another game of the Emperors New Clothes.
It is always a little sad to read young players listing their clarinets, their reeds, their setups, their ligatures, and of course, the clarinet and model number.
What in the world does this have to do with music? As someone has said above, it has a good deal to do with money.
Teachers should not perpetrate this kind of behavior.
Sherman Friedland
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-06-25 01:56
Well, if you are a beginner, don't get wrapped up in it. Unless you are using a bent up rusted metal ligature, they probably shouldn't be a huge concern to you now.
I'm not trying to put you down in any way, but if you are really interested in playing all sorts of mouthpieces and ligatures then by all means go for it! It can't hurt, and mabey you'll even find something you like.
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: timg
Date: 2008-06-25 14:15
Beginner here. And I'm afraid I have contributed to the economic turmoil described by David by buying a Rovner ligature, which I am very pleased with. I very much doubt I would notice the difference between any decent ligature, but the original metal contraption which came with my E13 did not hold the reed firmly or stably at all. It has been consigned to the junk drawer, along with the original mouthpiece.
And now I'm on the run from the Buffet Mafia, for bad-mouthing their stock ligatures...
-Tim
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: William
Date: 2008-06-25 15:39
"It is always a little sad to read young players listing their clarinets, their reeds, their setups, their ligatures, and of course, the clarinet and model number.
What in the world does this have to do with music? As someone has said above, it has a good deal to do with money.
Teachers should not perpetrate this kind of behavior."
William Stubbins--Universithy of Michigan (legendary) Emeritus Professor of Clarinet--used to scream at his students, "Play the reed--don't let the reed play you." Interpretation: don't blame your equipement when you cannot play the music--practice more and learn to play the music on your equipement. I'll wager that it would be impossible to tell if any truely great clarinetist was playing on a Buffet R13 or a Bundy Resonite from behind a screen. They would probably sound just as musical and produce as beautiful and well in tune a sound on either--it just would be easier for them to play well on the superior instrument. A local Madison Symphony clarinetist always says he "relys more on practice that on equipment"--and he is the hardest working clarinetist in town.
Well said, Sherman. It's about time we all spent more time worrying about our practice schedules than "who" is playing "what" and "where I can get one like it".
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-06-25 16:27
Here's the problem...
We are not all professionals and we do not have 24 hours a day to practice (I'm not saying pros have 24 hours a day to practice), so whatever we can find that seems to imrove us works, even if it is just a placebo is welcome.
Don't get me wrong, I know how much more important good practice is than good equipment, I'm just saying as another point of view.
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-06-25 17:37
Thank you. And Rosario Mazzeo told us many many times to"learn to play on a bad reed"And he meant the same thing, "get over your mouthpiece, your equipment and play music.
Of course, he designed a clarinet that Larry Combs once told me, "hey it looks like a Christmas tree" Lots of keys, but listen, we all should learn to pay on a bad reed, and many of us have. It only feels bad, but sounds, well,..........., no, not really bad.
Sherman Friedland
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: stevensfo
Date: 2008-06-25 17:47
-- "And he meant the same thing, "get over your mouthpiece, your equipment and play music." --
Yeah, but he used a rovner and polished the keys every day, whereas if you use a metal ligature with two screws, it dampens the higher harmonics - unless the keys are gold plated, in which case a Bonade works best - albeit with the centre cut out, preferably on a Wednesday!
:-)
Steve
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2008-06-25 19:05
It amazes me what people will spend their time worrying about in clarinet playing. In a long list of things that affect how my clarinet sounds let me say this the "ligature" is least significant piece of the equation. It has been my observation that, what I come across someone who is not happy with their sound, tone, response, whatever it came down to this: They had a reed that wasn't right for the mouthpiece facing and they had it in their mouth in a way that inhibited the vibration of the reed. AND they were most likely not breathing right either. But I think the first thing one needs to do as a teacher is make sure the students reeds are balanced on the mouthpiece they have, then I can stand a chance to get them to stop interfering with the reeds vibration. I think that Tom Ridenour's ATG is the most idiot resistant thing going and it's inexpensive. Are there other tools, methods and knowledge. yep! But most will cost more time, money or both.
I play and endorse the new Rico Reserve reeds, Do they play right out of the box, kinda, but I find that for my mouthpiece, and embouchure and the way I put air into a clarinet, every one gets worked on. Then I love the sound when I play them. It doesn't matter if I put a reed on a B45, m15 or my moba L or my Pete fountain crystal. If you work learn to adjust your reed to the rest of your set up, it's amazing just how good the rest of your set up will play! Even with the same ligature. Figure out the reeds before spending lots of money on mouthpieces, ligatures. Those of us that are old enough remember PF Fliers, " They make you run faster and jump higher" Yea right! I'll close with this: It's more important how your lips hold the reed than it is how the ligature holds the reed. Lets spend more time on the Moving parts: the music, the air and the reed!
Tom Puwalski, The Artist formerly known as Sarge, author of the Clarinetists Guide to Klezmer, and most importantly clarinetist with the kick ass klezmer band "The Atonement"
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-06-26 01:29
Sherman,
You hit a nerve here with "It is always a little sad to read young players listing their clarinets, their reeds, their setups, their ligatures, and of course, the clarinet and model number.What in the world does this have to do with music?
"
I have wondered the same thing and I don't get it either. In academe, as you know, we traditionally list advanced degrees and rank. Does listing what you play after your name indicate anything other than???? I don't know.
HRL
PS I enjoyed the ligature history. BTW, I still have my original Luyben ligature and it still plays great.
Post Edited (2008-06-26 01:30)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-06-26 02:31
This has been an interesting post and the many expressions of opinions on the matter. I think just about everyone is right, especially about the practicing part. It is true that most great players will sound good on just about anything, yes, even a shoelace. But the real point is why not find the best possible equipment for yourself. What’s wrong with looking for the best ligature, mouthpiece, reed etc. for yourself? Every profession, every sport, every type of job that requires using some type of equipment has always looked for the best possible way to do that job, why shouldn’t a clarinet player do the same thing? If a Rovner or a Bonade or string or whatever makes it even a tiny bit easier for me to get what I want, why shouldn’t I use it? Yes, we all have to make the best on what we have on any given day, but I for one am always looking to the best equipment to do my job. ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457 (Listen to a little Mozart, live recording on a Rovner ligature, a Morgan MP, an A Buffet R13, Backuns Bell and Barrel and a Rico Grand Concert Thick Blank Reed)
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2008-06-26 18:39)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
