 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2008-03-25 21:34
The title says it all really!
I'm considering study at the Conservatorium van Amsterdam because their Masters course looks good (and affordable) but I have this bad feeling my R13 American/French-ish thing isn't going to do me much good there.
Can anyone confirm?
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Author: Bubalooy
Date: 2008-03-25 22:14
I don't think the Nederlanders are so picky as the Austrians and some Germans about which instrument. I know at least one guy who played in Rotterdam and with the Netherlands Wind Ensemble on a Buffet. I couldn't say for sure about where you plan to study. Maybe a switch to reformed Boehm wouldn't be all bad though? Mind you, I'm not doing it.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-03-25 22:20
You won't have any problem studying there. It's trying to find a job there that will be difficult. There is only one orchestra in Holland (Het Brabants Orkest) where they play on French instruments. However, the solo clarinet audition for the Concertgebouw in June is open for all systems, so mabe this is the start of a new trend. We'll wait and see who gets the job though...
Which teacher would you be studying with in Amsterdam? Why don't you try to contact him/her?
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2008-03-25 22:23
I play in an orchestra with a young lady from Nederlands and she plays a Wurlitzer. She says the German instruments are the ones they use mostly.
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Author: Aussiegirl
Date: 2008-03-25 22:40
Morrigan, I thought you were a true-blue LeBlanc player? When did this whole R13 thing happen?
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2008-03-26 14:20
Thanks everyone. Sounds like I'll just have to ask a teacher there, they have a Masters where you can specialise in chamber music so with lots of ensemble playing they may be picky. In any case, I haven't got in yet!
Oh and Aussiegirl, I play on a Buffet R13 Bb as of about 2 years ago and a Leblanc Concerto A. These days I just go for good instruments, not necessarily the maker/brand, and I found a Bb better than my Leblanc. A rarity!
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2008-06-03 19:30
Just so that everyone knows, you can't go to the Conservatorium van Amsterdam unless you have German clarinets. I wasted my time and money going there to audition last weekend.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-06-03 19:35
What a bugger! Hope you get better luck with future auditions where they're not so biased about equipment.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-06-03 20:37
Morrigan- couldn't they have told you that BEFORE you wasted your time and money to go there for the audition? If this is really their policy then it should be made known to the students applying. Did you contact the teacher beforehand?
Post Edited (2008-06-03 20:38)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-06-04 04:55
My experience with them is they are very disorganized with the beucracy (spelling?) but I understand (from several friends who studied/study there) they are very good when it actually comes to the school and teaching.
I auditioned there some years ago (now that I think about it was about 7 years ago, can't believe it was that long ago). It was actually audition by a CD but I was there too and was really impressed with the place (though I think they are in a new buidling now). I auditioned to the jazz department but in the end I decided not to go for several reasons.
I don't think the type of instrument is a problem in the jazz department. At least they never told me anything about it. Strange about the classical department. For example the bass clarinet teacher from Amsterdam plays a French instrument. Also the repairer for the Concertgebouw is also a Leblanc dealer AFAIK.
A friend of mine just auditioned there for classical saxophone and they never said he needs to change his French instrument to a German one ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
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Author: Menendez
Date: 2008-06-04 23:53
I know several guys who studied in Rotterdam with Buffet clarinets, without problems. In Mozarteum too, with Buffets... and no problem. Maybe Amsterdam is different.
I am not agree with "the Nederlanders are so picky as the Austrians and some Germans about which instrument", because i dont think that Austrians and some Germans are picky.
I think they respect players based in french clarinets more than these "Buffet" players respect german players.
I have done several master classes several years ago, with Reinhard Wieser, playing my Buffet RC and Vandoren M15, and he did not have problems with my sound quality. He liked my sound.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-06-05 06:10
Morrigan- please answer this question:
Did anybody actually tell you straight out that you can't attend the Conservatoire in Amsterdam unless you have German clarinets? If so, then they really should have told you so and saved your time and money.
Or is this just something which you are assuming because everyone that got accepted happened to play German clarinets? This is something different altogether, and either means that the bias is hidden, or that the best players all turned out to play German clarinets (which is perhaps hard for you to accept?)
In any case, it's important to establish the truth, rather than spread rumours based on your unhappy experience.
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Author: fbouwer
Date: 2008-06-05 17:26
Though I've been reading the posts in this forum for some time now, I've never had the urge to create a username and take part in discussions. Until now. I feel I don't really have a choice.
I'm a student in the masters course in Amsterdam. I'm Dutch, and yes, I play on reform-boehm instruments. However, you're not in any way required to play these instruments to study here in Amsterdam. There've been several students in the past years on French system, and there's a couple right now.
The clarinet-class in Amsterdam (like in a lot of other places) is in a situation where there's far more applications then study-places. Unfortunately this means a lot of people have to be turned down. I spoke to some of the teachers about this, and they are very unhappy with it, but can't really do anything about it.
I hope I have made things a bit more clear for you.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2008-06-06 20:14
They were very nice about it, don't get me wrong, but said that it was 'for my best interest' that they could not offer me a place, as my sound would not fit in. I said that nowhere did it mention that someone not playing a German clarinet could not audition, they went on to say there are subtle differences in the style and that's why I would not fit in in ensembles. They also mentioned my age, and, to quote "Maybe if you were 17 or 18, then definitely" I do not know if they were referring to me changing styles or instruments, or that was about my age possibly making me difficult to teach (I certainly hope not!). They also asked if I had study opportunities elsewhere, and I mentioned that I got into the Royal College in London and they thought I would be better off there.
A friend at the Conservatorium van Amsterdam (not a woodwind player) did mention that in order to get in, it's best to have lessons with the teacher there beforehand, which is what she did, but I wanted to get in on my own merit. I am of course not implying this to be true of the woodwind department, merely pointing it out as a possible factor, as I was advised that myself and one other clarinetist were applying for Masters and they preferred to give it to the Dutch player. There was also a no-show on the day too apparently.
Oh, yet another reason I was turned away was apparently one of the teachers is sick, so they had even less places than usual to offer.
During the 'interview' (I'll call it that but it wasn't really), it felt like the panel were clutching at straws trying to justify why they couldn't accept me, but at the same time told me I was a great player. I'm not bitter or anything, really, just not terribly amused by the reasons I was not offered a place. If they came straight out and said I was not good enough, I could understand, but to come up with a plethora of other reasons while maintaining I did a good audition, well, makes me wonder what really happened. All I can glean from it all was "you don't play German clarinets".
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-06-08 04:10
There are a number of reasons in many countries why people get in a school or not. IMO, people get in to most schools most often if they meet the teacher beforehand. Even just 2 lessons so you can communicate your goals to the teacher you plan to study with; just so they know you are serious. They have a lot of applicants and there is no way to know about your personality from the audition. Getting in on your own merit is a very moral idea but the world is the world.
Incidentally, I often notice the same thing in job interviews. Just having a 5 minute phone conversation about your career interests with the secretary can make a world of difference.
Post Edited (2008-06-08 05:27)
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2008-06-08 14:50
I don't think the lessons are designed to "shmooze" the teacher as much as they are to see how well you fit with their teaching style. If the profesors there are really absolutely the best players in the world and you don't connect you won't learn anything. It has nothing to do with morals, it's just a preliminary means of seeing how you work and how you study. But I think that the Royal College of Music will be equally as rewarding for you!
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-06-09 12:50
I want to say something about the audition experience from 'the other side'.
My own days of auditioning are past; still, I remember that it's a difficult row to hoe.
But, I'd like to point out, being on the panel isn't much fun, either.
Contrary to the impression often given here, jury members are trying to do the right thing by the people auditioning BECAUSE THEY THEMSELVES WILL BENEFIT BY MAKING THE RIGHT DECISION. That's particularly true if the auditions are for places in orchestras or conservatoires -- but it's also true for competitions. We're idealistic enough, and care enough about music, to want the best player to win; we agonise over the decisions; we're happy when we agree about someone and we suffer when we have to argue.
But, leaving competitions aside, the idea 'one mistake, and you're out' couldn't be farther from the truth. On the contrary, we're trying to hear something good -- because we want something good in our orchestra, or in our conservatoire -- and labouring under the difficulty that an audition is a blunt instrument for assessing someone's potential.
I have personal experience of that 'blunt' quality, because I teach a summer course in Siena, and one of the rules of the Accademia is that everyone has to do an audition for a place in the class. So I make careful notes about everyone -- and then have a chance to see whether my initial impressions are borne out by their subsequent playing over the course. And though I am often right, I am also quite often surprised.
Now, in competition for limited places, it's obvious that if you are unsuccessful, that's because there were other people who we thought played better than you. So, we sometimes want to communicate something of that to you afterwards, saying that you played well -- if we thought you did. And so that your time hasn't been completely wasted, we might also want to say something about how your playing could be improved.
BUT -- and I've learnt this again from experience -- it's very, very difficult for an unsuccessful competitor to hear usefully anything critical said to them afterwards. That's because in that particular situation, they hold criticism not as a pointer toward something they might improve in their playing -- as they would in a lesson -- but as THE REASON WHY THEY WEREN'T SUCCESSFUL. And then it's so tempting for them to say: the only reason that that jury member could come up with for why they didn't like me was X (where X is something fairly trivial). So, the jury were stupid -- and therefore wrong.
I WAS ROBBED!
There's also the problem that it can be very difficult to characterise why we prefer one player to another. Player A has some strengths, player B some strengths. Player A has some weaknesses, player B some weaknesses. Yet overall we prefer player B. Why, exactly? Difficult to say.
Nowadays I avoid making comments to unsuccessful candidates. My last one was around 10 years ago, to a Spanish player who didn't make it to trial for a big orchestral position. I commented, by way of characterising just one aspect of 'the difference that had made a difference' between him and the other successful candidates, that his playing was perhaps a bit small in conception to cope with the demands of the job; to which he replied, with a sour expression on his face, that HE had studied in AMERICA; and THEY understood that a small sound was much more effective than it seemed. (So that was ME told.)
So now, in Morrigan's case, even though his post is still sitting there, I think he's been persuaded to move from his initial:
>> Just so that everyone knows, you can't go to the Conservatorium van Amsterdam unless you have German clarinets. I wasted my time and money going there to audition last weekend.>>
...because as fbouwer has pointed out, it isn't true.
I don't think, though, that he can see that the panel's remarks about the clarinet make and the Dutch sound could easily have been secondary to much subtler reasons why some other players were preferred to him on that occasion:
>> ...it felt like the panel were clutching at straws trying to justify why they couldn't accept me....I'm not bitter or anything, really, just not terribly amused by the reasons I was not offered a place.>>
Even the remarks about sound could very easily have been accurate and positively meant: though I don't know how Morrigan plays, it is perfectly possible that his personal approach to the instrument, French or not, wouldn't fit in well with that of other Dutch players. And because your relationship with the people you play with at College can significantly contribute to the ease of your transition between student and professional playing, you do best to have that be unproblematic.
BTW, I don't know how much of this 'not terribly amused' came over in his manner, but if any of it did, it might have made them just a little cross; much as reading about it makes me a little cross, frankly.
Finally, something about having lessons with people before auditioning: because, as I said, auditions are blunt instruments, and because we are trying to guess how someone may develop, more information is always better for us.
But notice, it can go both ways; clearly it's possible to damage your chances by exposing your deficiencies more clearly. So if you want to get in (or not) 'on your merits', then the more we know about you the more likely it is that you will get in 'on your merits' -- or not:-)
Tony
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-06-09 13:45
"If they came straight out and said I was not good enough, I could understand"
The way I read this - and my experience is in general job interviewing, not in auditioning musicians - is that the reason you were rejected was not because you aren't good enough. I think you were rejected for one or both of the following reasons:
1. They had other candidates who, while they might not be such good players as you, were more likely to benefit from the type of training offered at the Conservatoire.
2. They knew that you had an offer from London, and they thought it was a better place for you.
This happens all the time in interviewing candidates for a job. The "best" candidate on paper - the cleverest, the most experienced - doesn't get the offer because the company believes that he won't fit in, or won't be happy at that company. There is no sense in hiring a brilliant employee who leaves three months later because he doesn't like the job.
I suspect that what they were trying to say was "The way we teach here is rooted in the Dutch style of playing. Not just the type of instrument, but the style in which we play. That isn't how you play. Sure, we could train you to play a Buffet so it sounds like you're Dutch, but we don't think that's what you want. We think you want to be a better player in the French/American style, and you can learn that better in London than here."
Ask yourself - what reason did you give them for wanting to study in Amsterdam, rather than London or Paris or Vladivostok? I'm sure they asked the question. Did you say "Because I want to sound like a Dutch player" - I rather doubt you did, and at the end of the day that's the number one reason for going there.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-06-10 06:33
Tony- it may make you a little cross reading about Morrigan's report on his experiences, but I do believe that there is a bias in Holland towards only getting Dutch players. This would perhaps be acceptable, if only they didn't pretend that they were actually open to international applications.
Consider the last audition for principal clarinet in the Concertgebouw Orchestra. For the first time this job was advertised as being open to all systems, i.e. not only for players of Wurlitzer Reform-Boehm instruments (who are almost all Dutch). The audition had 3 rounds. Nobody got through the first round. To the second round were invited principal players from other professional orchestras who had applied for the job. From this very high level group of about 20 players only one player was considered to be good enough to play in a final round. Guess which country he was from? Two players who are already in the orchestra (playing 2nd) were invited directly into the final round. This meant that all 3 clarinetists in the final round were Dutch. Is this amazing coincidence due to them all exhibiting these "subtle differences in style"? I doubt it.
Unfortunately the chap who won the job didn't pass his trial year. So they're having another "open" audition next week. It will be interesting to see which Dutch player gets the job this time.
The music business, like all other businesses, is sometimes cliquey and biased towards "our own people". It can be immensely frustrating when you don't happen to belong to the preferred nationality, language group or gender.
Morrigan- I wish you better luck in London.
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-06-10 07:15
Liquorice - does this bias you perceive in the Dutch clarinet community apply to other instruments? There is a specifically Dutch clarinet, but so far as I know there is no specifically Dutch oboe, cello or xylophone. When they advertise orchestral jobs for those instruments, presumably there is no stipulation of the type of instrument to be played.... is there, however, a marked tendency to hire Dutch players to the exclusion of others?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-06-10 07:28
Maybe, but the problem is....
Morigan wrote: "you can't go to the Conservatorium van Amsterdam unless you have German clarinets"
Fbouwer who is a student in the CVA wrote: "There've been several students in the past years on French system, and there's a couple right now."
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-06-10 13:53
Liquorice wrote:
>> ....I do believe that there is a bias in Holland towards only getting Dutch players. This would perhaps be acceptable, if only they didn't pretend that they were actually open to international applications. Consider the last audition for principal clarinet in the Concertgebouw Orchestra....>>
If we're talking about auditions for orchestral positions, it seems to me that the Concertgebouw has every right to go for the style of playing that they want. That might well mean -- and in this particular case, I think it DOES mean -- that though the sound of the Reform Boehm clarinet players is preferable for them, there are nevertheless SOME players of other clarinets who come quite close to their ideal. And if one of those happened to audition, and if they also happened to be excellent musicians, they would be seriously considered for the job.
Throwing the audition open to non-Dutch players doesn't mean that someone who played like, say, Richard Hosford (who has a very different idea of sound) would be acceptable to them.
I was talking only a couple of weeks ago to an English colleague who had been invited to play with the Concertgebouw; and we agreed that anyone serious about the job would have to WANT to approach it with reference to the ideals of German-style clarinet playing.
And that's OK, because to my mind, and to his too, those ideals are not to be sniffed at.
These posts to the Klarinet list a few years ago might interest some of you -- the third one asks a question particularly apposite to the present discussion, I feel. They are all by me; but other people contributed to the thread, and some of what they said is reproduced in the quotes in my posts.
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/1999/11/000232.txt
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/1999/11/000278.txt
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/1999/11/000251.txt
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2000/05/000831.txt
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2000/05/000889.txt
Tony
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-06-11 09:52
Tony wrote: "If we're talking about auditions for orchestral positions, it seems to me that the Concertgebouw has every right to go for the style of playing that they want"
I agree with you there.
"That might well mean -- and in this particular case, I think it DOES mean -- that though the sound of the Reform Boehm clarinet players is preferable for them, there are nevertheless SOME players of other clarinets who come quite close to their ideal."
I don't really think that this is what is going on here. I think that the conductor (Janssons) doesn't really care which instruments the player uses, he is interested in getting the best musician. Whereas the clarinet players in Holland are too wrapped up in some kind of idea of "style" which they have.
"anyone serious about the job would have to WANT to approach it with reference to the ideals of German-style clarinet playing"
But what is German-style clarinet playing? To me Karl Leister, Sabine Meyer and George Pieterson (for example) don't sound anything like each other. In fact in many ways I would say that Pieterson and Leister are diametrically opposed in the way in which they approach making music.
It is important to find players who will match one another in a section. But playing on the same instruments doesn't guarantee this whatsoever. It's the way you blow the thing that matters most. Which is why, as you say, Richard Hosford wouldn't be a good choice for this section, even though he's an excellent player.
But I do feel that too much emphasis can be put on a so-called style of playing. Who is really interested in a Dutch style of playing? I'm sure you'd be the first to agree that what is really interesting is a style of playing Mozart, or a style of playing Dvorak. The Concertgebouw Orchestra sound completely different when conducted by Harnoncourt as they do when conducted by Haitink.
Of course, it would be boring if everybody played Mozart in the same way. But it would also be a shame if excellent clarinetists don't pass through audition rounds because "that's not the way we play it in Amsterdam"!
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-06-11 19:57
Liquorice wrote:
>> I think that the conductor (Janssons) doesn't really care which instruments the player uses, he is interested in getting the best musician. Whereas the clarinet players in Holland are too wrapped up in some kind of idea of "style" which they have.>>
Well, I'm not a clarinet player in Holland; but I understand what they're on about.
>> "anyone serious about the job would have to WANT to approach it with reference to the ideals of German-style clarinet playing"
>> But what is German-style clarinet playing? To me Karl Leister, Sabine Meyer and George Pieterson (for example) don't sound anything like each other. In fact in many ways I would say that Pieterson and Leister are diametrically opposed in the way in which they approach making music.>>
They don't sound exactly like each other; but I, for one, understand why they are similar, compared to others, and why they might be thought to be possible candidates. (George of course was an ACTUAL candidate:-)
>> Who is really interested in a Dutch style of playing? I'm sure you'd be the first to agree that what is really interesting is a style of playing Mozart, or a style of playing Dvorak. The Concertgebouw Orchestra sound completely different when conducted by Harnoncourt as they do when conducted by Haitink.>>
Yes; but I think of the Reform Boehm as being an attempt to capture on a Boehm clarinet some of the qualities of the German instrument, which is particularly suited to both Mozart and Dvorak. So, I AM interested in a Dutch style of playing.
I'd rather play on a 'proper' German clarinet -- but I admire their attitude.
BTW, Leister once said to me, when I told him that some of us were very admiring of the German attitude to clarinet playing: "But, *I* am not a 'German' clarinet player!!!"
But he is, like it or not.
>> ...it would also be a shame if excellent clarinetists don't pass through audition rounds because "that's not the way we play it in Amsterdam"!>>
I don't agree -- mainly because there aren't all that many 'excellent clarinetists'. Far too many of them are more interested in 'how they play' than in 'how they might learn to contribute.'
The hell with them. Bravo Concertgebouw.
Tony
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-06-11 21:29
Well Tony, I'll go off and think about what you wrote. I usually end up agreeing with you anyway :-)
In the meantime, I'm watch with interest who wins the job next week...
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-06-11 22:14
Tony- Karl Leister said that he is not a 'German' clarinet player? Then what kind does he consider himself?
Post Edited (2008-06-12 06:11)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-06-27 14:05
opus2player wrote:
> Does anybody know the results of the audition last week?
Three finalists - no winner.
Thus, no one was hired.
...GBK
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-06-27 22:09
4 people passed into the final round: a Spaniard, an Italian, a Swede and a German. The German played German system (not Reform-Boehm) and the other 3 played French instruments. The Swede wasn't able to take part in the final round, and none of the other 3 were considered to be good enough by the panel.
The first 2 rounds took place behind a curtain, and the final was "open". There were no Dutch finalists, and no-one playing Reform-Boehm... and no-one got the job.
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