 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-05-17 23:58
I want to major in performance, but I want to teach Clarinet also. I know after college I'll need another job to support my performance. Eventually I want to teach clarinet though, after I gain some credentials though. Is it possible to get a job at a college/school of music teaching clarinet without a degree in education?
thanks
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Author: redwine
Date: 2008-05-18 01:10
Hello,
Absolutely. Most big universities want a doctorate degree, and I'm pretty sure it technically wouldn't matter what the degree was in (you'd have to really convince the committee, however, if your degree were in something outside of music). Some smaller colleges and conservatories will hire a professor based on professional experience, so if you win the New York Phil job, then you can skip school altogether!
I would suggest a bachelor's degree in education (I did that with a minor in performance), then do all of the advanced degrees in performance, or better yet, theory, or music history, etc. to make yourself more marketable. Most jobs advertised require you to teach courses outside of clarinet in addition to your clarinet teaching duties.
(Disclaimer: all of this information from someone that doesn't teach!!!)
I would recommend checking out the University of South Carolina. Joe Eller was my roommate in college. He's a great player and teacher.
Good luck!
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2008-05-18 12:02
Ben,
I actually disagree with you somewhat.
It is the smaller, insecure schools that usually require your DMA or PhD. The larger and better known the school, the more chance they will rely on your performance skills, teaching reputation, and letters of reference.
And yes, winning the NYPO position would allow you to skip school and be offered a teaching position at Juilliard.
Chuck Kavalovski, long time principal horn of the Boston Symphony, had his PhD in physics (not music). He won the BSO audition on his playing abilities.
At different times, he taught at both New England Conservatory (music) and MIT (physics). So there are different routes of climbing the mountain.
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Author: redwine
Date: 2008-05-18 13:03
Hello,
Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I meant to be. By the "big schools", I meant state universities, where you will need your doctorate, almost without exception. Conservatories, or "big schools", like Northwestern, Juilliard, etc. do overlook the doctorate thing. By small schools, I mean private universities and colleges, junior colleges, etc., where you won't need a doctorate often times.
P.S. Steve Cohen, my former teacher, is now at Northwestern and has only a bachelor's degree and a performer's certificate from an European institution. He's one of the best teachers I know, so the "paper" doesn't mean a lot, except in the eyes of college administrators and hiring commitees, unfortunately. Quoting my jazz teacher at LSU, "It's alright if you have your doctorate, as long as you don't play as if you have your doctorate!".
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-05-19 03:22
Hi Ryder. I am a member of the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra and teach clarinet and bass clarinet at the Peabody Conservatory of Music in Baltimore and was an assistant professor at Towson University for 31 years teaching clarinet and ensembles before retiring from that position. I only have a Bachelor degree. I was offered the Towson position because of my professional experience, the same reason I was later offered the Peabody position. Though it is true that just about all major Universities require a DMA today, they usually say Masters required, Doctors preferred, the jobs unusually go to the Doctors. I believe smaller colleges may not be so specific. The exceptions are the Major Music Schools and Universities that are looking for the professional player with a reputation to attract students, but you have to first get a good playing job or reputation as a soloist to even think about that. As far as teaching clarinet in a private music school, I would say that any degree would impress most of them as long as you can prove you are a decent clarinetist and have some teaching experience. Of course that depends on the music school and where it is. Conservatory preparatory schools are also an exception to the Masters or DMA degrees in many cases. Of course you can build up a private clarinet studio wherever you live by advertising, visiting, schools, and getting your name known around town and by word of mouth. Of course that could take years to build up a working studio. Teaching Saxophone doesn’t hurt either, if you’re trying to earn a living. I did that my first few years in Baltimore when we only worked for thirty weeks back in the 60s. It not only helped pay the bills but I learned an awful lot about teaching and playing via the experience of teaching a variety of student levels. If you decide to be a performance major I suggest you learn the clarinet family, bass and Eb, to make yourself more valuable when auditioning for a job. You could always end up playing in a smaller orchestra and using that position to build up a good private studio or teach part time in a local college or university. I hope this helps you decide what you want to do. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2008-05-19 13:19)
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2008-05-19 18:18
If you won the NY Phil job you wouldn't need to teach unless you wanted to. I've heard college teaching jobs are very hard to come by. I taught public school band 19 years-- the "safe" but somewhat draining route, though it can be very rewarding if you're in the right situation. I studied with Russianoff in the 70s and he said he advised all of his students to get their education certification. I was way ahead of him.
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-05-20 01:05
Lets get one thing straight...There is no way in h*ll that I can get the NY phil job at my age. I'm no Stanley Drucker making it at 19. That is my ultimate goal though, in my career. I plan on at least getting my masters in performance (not sure if I see a need for a PhD) then, or during the time I am getting the Masters, I want to do local orchestras here in state, or wherever I happen to be at the time. Then when i don't have to worry about graduating I will lock myself away in music and work my butt off to get into orchestras like the CSO and the SFSO and even the Met. Like I said though, eventually I wan to be in the NY Phil. By the looks of it, I think that's possible because of my attitude. I get what I want! It's never failed me. You all watch for me. Give me 25 years and I be in the NY Phil. Remeber that.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2008-05-20 04:29
Not if you don't lock yourself away until after your Masters.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-05-20 11:39
Ryder, first win $10 Million playing the Lottery and use most of that money for lessons - in that order......
You will then have the luck as well as the training to possibly have a shot at getting it, and a good backup if you don't.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-05-20 11:45
How to be a millionaire as a performance major:
Step 1 - Start with two million dollars
...GBK
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-05-20 11:57
Getting an advanced degree will greatly help your chances of getting a job in the music biz whatever that happens to be.
You will have to be the biggest fish in the ocean to have a decent shot at getting a full time playing job that will pay more than living in your parents basement when you are 33.
So it's about making a meaningful living while you persue your dreams. Unless you are independently wealthy (that lottery win) you will be supporting yourself while you practice and take auditions. And those auditions will cost $$$ just getting there, etc.
When I was younger and in "audition mode" the Philadelphia Orchestra didn't have any openings for the next 18 years. The "baby" of the Orchestra at that time (Ron Ruben) got his position in 1967 when I was all of 4 years old.
So have a solid backup plan and use it while life throws obstacles at you.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-05-20 14:31
Ryder, it's to late to begin practicing hard after college. I practiced three to four hours every day in college, at least my last three years. I only made runner up in a NY Phil audition years ago, maybe I should have added one more hour a day. You better start hitting the reeds hard now. PS. I did OK for myself. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2008-05-20 20:00
It's wise to have perspective. Figure out how many kids are started in band programs each year in the U.S. and Canada. If less than 1% make it to the point where they have the ability to consider auditioning for any ochestra that pays a salary that's not "per service", you are still talking about what- 100,000 great clarinettists? Hey, it can be done with incredible hours of practise over years and a ton of luck. I play in bands each summer in NY and know of about 10 people that are at least as good as me and I am REAL GOOD, with a Masters in perf. We play on in obscurity.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-05-20 20:51
David Hattner once had a very astute observation about those considering a professional performing career:
(roughly paraphrased):
"On any given day there are 25 - 35 players in NYC who can perform the Nielsen Concerto on 24 hours notice and amaze you - with many more who can work it up within a week or two - all bringing something to it"
Pretty sobering facts for new students thinking of entering the professional clarinet job market...GBK
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-05-20 21:07
Yup, that's real too. When I got called for the Riverside Sym. and was asked to bring something to play for the Conductor I brought the Nielsen - with 1 day notice. Hadn't played it in over 10 years - it was fun and I wanted a challenge to see if I could do it like that.
There's lots and lots of really good players out there.
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"Figure out how many kids are started in band programs each year in the U.S. and Canada. If less than 1% make it to the point where they have the ability to consider auditioning for any ochestra that pays a salary that's not "per service", you are still talking about what- 100,000 great clarinettists?"
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I wouldn't put it at 1%, more like 1/1000 of 1% which is still a lot (100 **each year** for how few positions there are).
GBK, did you hear David H. just got a Conducting Gig out in Portland? (Portland Youth Sym)
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2008-05-21 06:01
Why have all the threads recently turned towards some self-told story about how good David Blumberg was?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-05-21 06:46
"Why have all the threads recently turned towards some self-told story about how good David Blumberg was?"
I was wondering about something a bit similar. I noticed many times on the forum people write stuff like how people complimented on their sound and how they sound good, etc. Is this some cultural thing in some countries/areas? Here, if someone would say something like this, they would be considered arogant and weird in a bad way (as opposed to the usual good way of being weird  ).
"On any given day there are 25 - 35 players in NYC who can perform the Nielsen Concerto on 24 hours notice and amaze you - with many more who can work it up within a week or two - all bringing something to it"
This is interesting. I guess this goes along with what I read sometimes and hear from some players how their goal is some sort of position as opposed to thinking about exactly what they will be doing. I guess if you are going to do something that many others can also do, with the differences possibly things that are very subjective, getting into an important orchestra position is some sort of validation that you are "better" than others doing similar things. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm against that, although it is completely different than what I want to do (and what I do), I think there is nothing wrong with that approach for others.
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-05-21 08:22
clarnibass - if it makes you feel better, people who go on and on about how good they are (or were) are considered arrogant in England too. In England, it's OK to say "I'm English, and we English are the best" but not "I'm the best". I think maybe the same is true in Israel.
But I disagree with your last paragraph. Getting a top orchestral job isn't just a matter of proving how good you are. It's a matter of earning a living.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-05-21 11:37
Its always a matter of earning a living. Nobody takes an audition for love of competition.
Some may take an audition for the experience to hone skills for another future one though.
Nationalistic arrogance to me isn't any better than individual arrogance. My comment wasn't arrogant, it was illustrating that story can and does happen.
A player in Seattle learned the Weiss concerto and performed it with Orchestra after the scheduled player got sick. He only had 3 days to learn it.
I doubt that I would have wanted to do that, and if I did, it probably wouldn't have been as good.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
Post Edited (2008-05-21 12:04)
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2008-05-21 14:41
I played the Nielsen when I was 21 -from memory. But I'm not bragging at all, because it was LOUSY. At age 38 I played it again (not from memory) and did a half decent job. I guess we just like to feel that we are really accomplished at something. Can you imagine how many total great musicians-instrumental/vocal, etc. in the world? Mind -boggling. It's really too bad that the really top symphony players can't make an NBA salary. But, as everyone says, it's one's choice to go that route. A route filled with orchestras constantly going broke, hoping for some wealthy donor to keep them afloat. At least a top pop/rock musician can get the big bucks. We should have American Idol for classical clarinettists.
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-05-21 19:29
I should be practicing. As I get older, like many, arthritis is creeping in to my fingers,(and I can't speak about my thinking), and I know that practicing, even though I don't have any gig coming up, is very good for every part of my body, and like us all, I love the sound of the clarinet. I read this board because it is fascinating to me, just about every posting, and here are a few thoughts that I have concerning the question of degrees necessary or not, and things like the Neilson Concerto,( a very eccentric piece) the life of a clarinet player and stuff I find pertinent.
There is only one concerto that one will have to play at every audition, the most transparent, difficult, and incidentally beautiful work, and it is the Mozart.Like all the others, I played it at the Boston Symphony audition years and years ago, as did everyone else there, and I walked away happy that I had loved, lost and lived for another time around. That was for second clarinet. Harold Wright won that audition, but would take only first, which wasn't open then.(But he came back and walked into it in a couple of years after Gino Cioffi got his notice) Peter Hadcock got the job that time, but of course Wright won it. Strange, but true, and I was there. (Everybody walked on tiptoes when we knew Wright was there for the audition) (He was principal in Washington DC at the time)
Playing in an orchestra is the ability to sit and play without making an error each day. It is about consistency, and the ability to always come in and always to be correct. It is also about learning to play and get along with the entire section of woodwinds and to be able to function both as a soloist and part of a team, and perhaps the team part is most important, for it means tuning, coffee, complaints, union problems and the whole thing.
There are many people for whom this is a lifetime goal, but for others, they just cannot "make" that kind of day-to-day kind of position. Leland Munger, an excellent player who was principal in San Antonio many years ago told me that for him, "playing in an orchestra is like licking letters in a post office." Yes, he felt it was boring.
So perhaps that is something about which to think. Everybody can play, and everybody can play great, but being there at the right time and the right place with the right reed is only the beginning.
You can major in anything, study with any teacher, but you must make the choice of playing the clarinet for the rest of the time in your life and if you are fortunate, or perhaps not, you will find yourself in the position that is right for you.
Here is another quotation from a great thinker.While teaching, I was in an endless meeting , and I think I was about to climb the walls when an English professor leaned over to me and said, "Most men live lives of quiet desparation."
You may find yourself thinking that, in this life, but hey, remember this, it's not just the Nielsen.
Good luck.Now I have to practice.
Sherman Friedland
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-05-23 07:43
"if it makes you feel better"
I wasn't trying to get free online therapy ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
"In England, it's OK to say "I'm English, and we English are the best" but not "I'm the best". I think maybe the same is true in Israel."
Maybe most people, I am not really sure. If I heard someone say "I'm Israeli, and we Israelis are the best" I would think they are silly, and kind of stupid, and maybe have some problems if they have to resort to national stuff like that....
But back on topic.
"Getting a top orchestral job isn't just a matter of proving how good you are. It's a matter of earning a living."
Let's assume earning a living is something you need to do anyway. I meant about the different type of "goals" - ones described by "titles" and ones described by exactly what you will be doing (not necessarily the specific, but the ideas). Playing in an orchestra was just an example of a situation that could be the former. I wasn't critisizing either, just interested. These two "goals" sometimes go together, sometimes one is compromised for the other, sometimes one is sacrificed for the other.
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