 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarionman
Date: 2008-05-10 02:00
Hi everyone,
I would like to start playing bass clarinet. Therefore I need to buy a horn. I would like to know what is a good brand of bass clarinet in the beginner/intermediate range. I don't want a pro bass clarinet since I don't plan on playing it that much. I have seen a lot of Bundy, Vito, Selmer, Yamaha, etc... But I just don't know anything about them. I have been playing Buffet Bb,A,Eb. clarinet for almost 9 years and I want to move to the lower range instruments.
Thanks in advance.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-05-10 03:55
The newer Yamaha 221 (the one that isn't the same as a Vito) is good. That's what I would buy.
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Author: Jkelly32562
Date: 2008-05-10 17:59
I started on a Buffet 1180-2, it worked very well for me; however, I think they may be considered expensive for an intermediate horn.
Jonathan Kelly
jkelly32562@troy.edu
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2008-05-10 22:48
Although the Buffet 1180 looks and feels nicer, the plastic Yamaha 221 (new version) plays better at half (or less) the price.
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Author: blazian
Date: 2008-05-11 02:09
I started on a Buffet 1180, then switched to a Yamaha 221, then ended up on a Selmer Privilege (pro?). By far I think the Yamaha is the better than the Buffet, even though I thought it was easier to switch from clarinet to the Buffet 1180.
- Martin
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Author: Firebird
Date: 2008-05-11 03:01
Hsve you considered a hard rubber bass clarinet? Maybe the brand Wiseman, no idea if you all would be able to see it there.
Chan
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Author: clarionman
Date: 2008-05-11 08:37
How does the Yamaha 221 compare to the Selmer 1430P Bb Bass Clarinet. Since I started looking for a bass clarinet the Selmer 1430P Bb Bass Clarinet seems to pop up everywhere when doing a search for a bass clarinet.
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Author: Dan1937
Date: 2008-05-11 11:14
Just curious: Is the current Selmer 1430P basically the same horn as the older Bundy 1430P?
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2008-05-11 15:18
Clarionman,
The choice of BC mouthpiece can be even more critical than the choice of instrument.
In my case, I get a fine quality of sound, response, and projection with a Walter Grabner LB mouthpiece on a Yamaha 221 II. I settled on the Yamaha because based on everything I was able to determine it's the best deal in its price range. Plus, the difference in price between the 221 II and more expensive bass clarinets enabled me to get a new Dimedici alto flute.
I've had my 221 II for going on two years and I can't think of anything that bothers me about it.
Roger
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Author: William
Date: 2008-05-11 16:17
I started with a Bundy Resonite which I enjoyed playing. However, it was like "night and day" when I tried a Buffett 1193-2 low C bass--I just had to have it. And, I got it and love playing it. FWIW, I did try a 1180 Buffet bass that did not play nearly as well as the low C model, in fact, no better than my old Bundy. My advice would be to go for the top model right away and try as many 1193-2s or low C Selmers as you can. Dont' settle for anything less as you will eventually want "move on up" as I did. Good luck.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2008-05-11 17:12
William,
There is another point of view. First, the $8,500 price (last time I looked) for an 1193 is more than what some players care or are able to invest. No question, the 1193 is a FINE instrument. However, not every performance situation requires an 1193. One of my bass clarinet buddies has an 1193 and a Yamaha 221 II which he uses for outdoor performances and as a back up. He has a superb quality of sound on the 221 II. Even if one doesn't play outdoor concerts there can be personal reasons for not feeling a need for a top-of-the-line wood bass clarinet.
Anyway, if a beginning BC player starts with a good quality "standard" Yamaha like the 221 II it can still come in handy if the player springs for a 1193 down the road. It doesn't have to be either-or.
Roger
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2008-05-12 04:01
My advice is stay away from the student Yamaha, it has one octave key and it's very hard to get the higher notes on it. The three students i had that played bass all had that horn and high G, just would not come out on it. I tried like crazy with good mouthpieces ect, nothing worked. All three could hit all the notes on my Buffet prestige bass. But it's way too expensive. There, is a hard rubber Amati bass that a few people playing in Vegas tried and were raving about. I think Kessler had a few and they were in the 2K$ range.
Bass is hard to nail set ups on, if you have a crappy horn you won't really check a mouthpiece out. And maybe it's just me but when I first started playing bass it was really hard to figure out what the reed was doing. Even though I hadn't had any problems with reeds on any other kind of clarinet. If you have a lead on a used horn, find someone who really is a bass clarinetist, to help you check out the instrument, mouthpiece and reeds. If this costs you a few bucks spend it, it might keep you from making a costly mistake. Tom Puwalski
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2008-05-12 13:51
I have students playing the Yamaha 221. I can unequivocally state that with the proper setup (mouthpiece and reeds), and good teaching, response all the way up to high G is not a problem. Sound can also be very satisfactory.
Don't confuse this with the earlier student Yamahas -- Vito clones -- which were IMO nasty!
Tom's advice to "find someone who is a real bass clarinetist" is sound. I wonder if he has followed it. I know a few folks who own Buffet Prestiges and Selmer Privileges -- that, in itself, doesn't necessarily qualify them as "real bass clarinetist".
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Author: William
Date: 2008-05-12 15:43
"I know a few folks who own Buffet Prestiges and Selmer Privileges -- that, in itself, doesn't necessarily qualify them as "real bass clarinetist".
LOL [count me in--but I often get to play a "real bass clarinetist" in local orchestras and bands for $$s--and playing a Buffet Prestige bc really helps me get asked back]
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2008-05-12 16:00
Larry, what makes you wonder if I have followed that advice? I could hit the high notes on the Yamaha 221, I just couldn't get my students to do it consistanly. That is most likely a problem with my ability to teach that part of bass playing. But with their mouthpiece and reed combos, they could play the upper register on my Buffet. But since we've opened a dialog and I have alot of respect for your playing, permit me ask you a few questions.
1. It seems to me that the problem with one octave key bass clarinets is that they require more "voicing" in upper regester, How does that differ from 2 ok basses and how do you get a student to understand it. How do I explain it to them?
2. I think the biggest mistake a beginning bass clarinetist makes is not putting anything close to the right amount of mouthpeice in their mouths, do you find this too? How do you help a student find that spot on Bass? When playing Bb clarinet I take alot of moutpiece in my mouth, I like to play right at that fulcrum point and I play what most would call "long" facing moutpieces. When I play bass and I find that same "spot" seems like there's alot of mouthpiece in my mouth, It seems to work for me, as I can do long downward slurs and it "holds". My question is this: lenth of curve on a bass mouthpiece, whats long, short and middle of the road? Do you think it should be consistant with what you play on Bb-A clarinet?
3. Any particular studies you've found valuable for a beggining bass player, or do you stick with regular clarinet studies?
4. Are you performing anywhere where one could come and hear you?
I would have emailed you off board but I figure everybody could benifit from answers to these questions. Thanks Tom Puwalski
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2008-05-12 17:03
Thanks for your response, Tom; I'm happy to answer your questions.
1. You are quite right that single OK bass clarinets might require more voicing than double OKBC's. I try to have students play slow scales up to progressively higher notes, then pause and try to replicate the all the parameters cold turkey. Requires some patience from teacher and pupil, but I haven't failed yet -- with all sorts of instruments. And I played most of my 50+ year professional career on a single octave key Leblanc 517.
2. I try to get the students to play near the bottom of the range of pitch on any given note, try to free up the jaw and depend on plentiful air support to sustain the entire range -- "air, not chops" is something my students get sick of hearing me cajole. I play a medium facing (tip opening about 170) Roger Garrett/Zinner-based mouthpiece. For students not able or willing to pay the difference, his "MO" Babbit-based facing, available from WWBW has about the same playing characteristics, but a less distinctive sound. I don't see any any advantage in "matching" facings on different horns -- I play a Selmer D on alto sax. Ralph Morgan RM-06 on clarinet.
3. I stick with regular clarinet studies at all levels of bass clarinet instruction, except that I ask more advanced students to study Bach Cello Suites, from the bass clef original -- not transcriptions. For intermediate students I particularly like Leon Lester's "The Developing Clarinetist" based on, in part, Weissenborn bassoon studies - very grateful to the BassCl.
4. I was supposed to play an all-Gershwin concert with the McLean (VA) Orchestra this week -- had to cancel for health reasons. Next performances:
Fairfax Symphony - June 14 at George Mason University (Bernstein "West Side Story Symphonic Dances" and a couple of new works with monster bass clarinet parts); Clarinet Quartet "Mpingo" at Dumbarton House, DC, June 24, 7:30PM. I hope you and other BBoard members could come -- I'd be honored to meet you!
Post Edited (2008-05-12 17:52)
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2008-05-12 17:23
BTW - the Buffet 1180 has been discontinued and is no longer available to dealers. For an in-expensive bass clarinet, I recommend the Yamaha YCL221. With a good mouthpiece and some concentration on tone, it can sond surprisingly like a good wood bass clarinet. The ones I have tried seem to have pretty good intonation.
I think a hard rubber (or Greenline) LOW C bass clarinet is a great idea. I haven't tried one yet that I can recommend, but I am sure it is just a matter of time.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2008-05-12 17:55
I might add that I had a new student come in a few weeks ago with one of Walter Grabner's "LB" bass clarinet mouthpieces. My first exposure to this product: I thought it sounded wonderful!
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2008-05-12 20:02
I did not feel led to reply to Tom's message at first but to underscore Larry and Walter's messages, I have no problems with the 221 II's high range using Walter's LB mouthpiece. High G pops right out. No problem at all. In fact, superb response and quality of sound throughout the BC's range.
Roger
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Author: blazian
Date: 2008-05-13 01:20
On all of the bass clarinets I've tried (Buffet 1180, Yamaha 221, Selmer Privilege, a few different Bundys, older low c Ridenour, and Vito), I compared my cheap $15 no-name mouthpiece to my Selmer C* and there's not much difference, except the cheap one seemed to have a higher baffle and thicker walls. My point is that.... I guess I don't have a point. I just got lucky with my mouthpiece.
Has anyone else been this lucky or did you guys actually have a budget when you started out?
- Martin
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2008-05-13 03:14
Mouthpieces are basically semi-random objects. I've tried some mega-dollar Kaspars that played like crap, and as you've discovered, some cheap no-name mouthpieces play just fine. That said, a far higher percentage of a good mouthpiece maker's pieces will play well than will those selected at random from the 'general population'.
Back to topic (sort of) -- William, I don't understand how you can in good conscience suggest that a beginner to the bass clarinet should immediately go out and buy a Buffet 1193 or Selmer Privilege. That's ridiculous! Would you want a beginning driver to purchase an AMG Mercedes? I wish I had that kind of money to throw around. If clarionman likes the bass clarinet and decides to make a career of it, he can always sell his lower-priced 'starter' instrument and move up with little if any loss of money.
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Author: William
Date: 2008-05-13 14:35
Take it easy on me, David. The poster said he had been playing Buffet A, Bb, & Eb clarinets for nine years and I assumed that he was not a beginning clarinetist and that money was probably not a problem. My feeling was--and still is--that perhaps it would be better to streach his budget a bit and get the best right away rather than having to upgrade later. I always felt that I made a mistake in purchasing the Bundy Resonite and not going for a top professional instrument instead.
And yes, after driving Fords for nine years, I would have gone for the Mercedes instead of the Mercury Cougar if my wifes grandfather hadn't owned the Lincoln-Mercury dealership--but thats another topic (sorry).
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Author: clarionman
Date: 2008-05-13 23:54
I see William and David Spiegelthal points. I specially like Divid's beginning driver purchasing an AMG Mercedes comment, lol. As William said I am not a beginning clarinetist but I am not a Pro either and I am not planning on becoming one. I have a career I'm happy with. I would love to buy a Buffet bass clarinet to keep all of my clarinets in the Buffet family but even with a good job I can not be spending that kind of money for an instrument that I would be using for clarinet choir and symphonic band. I am glad that a lot of people that responded to this post and I think I have a good idea of what instrument to get. For some reason I had in my mind the idea that Jupiter bass clarinets were good. I think that the Yamaha 221 II and a good mouthpiece setup would be good for what I am planning to use the instrument for. All of you guys really help me make a good inform decision and prevented me from making a mistake on buying a bad instrument. I think that after the bass clarinet I would like to get a Contra-Alto or Contra-bass just for the heck of it. If you have any info would be greatly appreciated, just to keep as reference when the time comes of buying a contra-alto/bass. I can tell you that I don't what to spend 5,000+ if possible.
Thanks
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-05-14 00:06
As a professional doubler I didn't play much bass clarinet at all. I had a Bundy which I finally sold as it wasn't much fun to play. I got a well used Leblanc Paris on ebay. It has one register key. Immediately I had it repadded by Seattle repairman Scott Granlund. It's a good sounding instrument and it should be fine for me. My investment was 1500 dollars.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2008-05-14 17:13
William, please accept my apologies, what I wrote was unjustifiably harsh and I regretted hitting the 'submit' key about 20 seconds after doing it! I guess we had both made assumptions about clarionman's situation and, as so often happens, the truth seemed to fall somewhere in the middle. (And I suppose a psychologist might find me suffering from "Buffet Envy" or something like that, since I play an old and lowly Kohlert......)
Back to topic again: as far as contra-alto clarinets, I think William and I will agree that the Bundy/Buescher/Selmer USA plastic contra, readily available in good used condition for $1000 or less, is a fine player and a terrific bargain. As we've discussed before on the BB, the EEb contra-alto is a very handy instrument to have as one can use it to play concert-pitch bass clef parts by pretending they're in treble clef and adding three sharps -- makes it easy to play tuba, string bass, bassoon and contra-bassoon parts. Plus it's a fun horn in its own right and no more effort to maintain than a bass clarinet.
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Author: Chelle
Date: 2008-05-14 22:09
Quote:
As a professional doubler I didn't play much bass clarinet at all. I had a Bundy which I finally sold as it wasn't much fun to play. I got a well used Leblanc Paris on ebay. It has one register key. Immediately I had it repadded by Seattle repairman Scott Granlund. It's a good sounding instrument and it should be fine for me. My investment was 1500 dollars.
Freelance woodwind performer
I'm not a professional doubler, but I played primarily bass all through high school and college and much prefer playing it over my Bb in the community band and community pit orchestra that I currently play with.
In high school, we played plastic student instruments (Vito's, I think). Once I graduated, I decided I wanted my own bass and I wanted a wooden one, but I didn't have a huge buget (and I didn't plan on playing professionally so I didn't need a high end professional instrument either). The local music store owner found me a 1967 Noblet (I'm assuming it's a model 60 since it doesn't have a model number on it) that had just been repadded for $1000.
Sure it's technically a student instrument and only goes down to Eb and it has it's quirks that I have learned to work around, but it has a really nice tone (I get compliments on my tone all the time) and I absolutely love playing it. And I just recently (9 years after I bought it) I spent $450 and had it sent off for a complete overhaul with repadding, oil bath, and adjustments and it plays even better now (even the repair guy said it was a really nice playing instrument). Yeah, it would be nice to get a step up bass that goes down to C, but I just couldn't bare to part with this one; of all the instruments I own, this is by far my favorite and it serves me well for what I do.
-Chelle
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2008-05-15 12:02
David Spiegelthal wrote,
>>Back to topic again: as far as contra-alto clarinets, I think William and I will agree that the Bundy/Buescher/Selmer USA plastic contra, readily available in good used condition for $1000 or less, is a fine player and a terrific bargain. As we've discussed before on the BB, the EEb contra-alto is a very handy instrument to have as one can use it to play concert-pitch bass clef parts by pretending they're in treble clef and adding three sharps -- makes it easy to play tuba, string bass, bassoon and contra-bassoon parts. Plus it's a fun horn in its own right and no more effort to maintain than a bass clarinet.
>>
Yes. I own a Bundy 1440 EEb from the 1980s. I bought it used for $900, from someone who had also bought it used. He had taken excellent care of it. I love it! I use a Selmer C* mouthpiece, again not a pricey item, but it plays well on this clarinet. I don't see any reason for an amateur such as myself to look for a more expensive contra-alto when this one does everything I need from it.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: clarionman
Date: 2008-05-16 15:02
David,
Thanks for the tip about playing concert-pitch bass clef parts by pretending they're in treble clef and adding three sharps. I would have never figure that out on my own. I was only thinking of playing the instrument in clarinet choir but with what you said it opens alot of other options.
Thanks.
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2008-05-18 06:47
I got myself a nice old Noblet wooden bass for $500 on ebay a few years back. Would be awesome if I got it an overhaul!
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Author: Mike Blinn
Date: 2008-05-18 23:00
Has anyone considered the Tom Ridenour "Lyrique" Bb Bass Clarinet RCP-925e? It's a hard rubber, low Eb, double register key instrument that sells for as little as $2100. Tom also has a low C model.
Mike Blinn
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2008-05-19 17:10
Regarding transposition, in my experience it's best to learn bass clef and transpose from bass clef in a similar way as how one transposes from concert key to Eb or Bb in treble clef. Also, keep in mind that some high basoon parts may be written in tenor clef.
That said, transposing bass clef to Eb does have that built-in trick that was mentioned in a previous message.
Roger
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-05-19 19:11
"Also, keep in mind that some high basoon [sic] parts may be written in tenor clef."
Yes, but that is just the same as treble-clef Bb bass clarinet, give-or-take two sharps. If the part goes much above middle C (concert) then it's probably going to get uncomfortable on a contra-alto anyway.
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