 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-05-15 03:08
It's been about a month since Steve Fox put a new mechanism on my Buffet clarinet to replace the register key. After one adjustment I am very pleased with it. Throat Bb is as clear as throat A . The only issue is going smoothly from say a low note to throat Bb. If you don't clear the thumb ring key you get a glitch. It is not a big issue. Steve filed some of the top of the ring away and said that some people have even removed the upper part of the ring. When the thumb is pressing the register key for Bb the ring is high so you must clear this. With a normal register key it really doesn't matter. Some people adapt quickly to the new mechanism. I believe you start moving your thumb differently. I didn't want to just go on and on about how great this mechanism is without pointing out a small negative. As I compare this mechanism to the bass clarinet I own....Leblanc Paris... the bass clarinet uses the A key to trigger the throat Bb pad. Steve's mechanism is triggered by the thumb ring key. I take it the bass clarinet mechanism might be slightly more difficult to retrofit on a soprano clarinet....spacing of keys? I didn't talk to Steve Fox about this. In any case a month into this and I am very pleased with the results.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2008-05-15 10:40
There's more clearance under the A key on a bass clarinet to put the mechanism in. On a Bb, you have the pad that closes for F#.
I think there are some leverage issues too, given the much shorter length of the keys on Bb clarinets.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2008-05-15 11:03
Steve Fox makes two Bb mechanisms, one working off the thumb ring and the other off the throat Ab key. Given the choice, I would use the Ab key version, which doesn't require that you get completely off the thumb ring.
The 1950s Selmer Omega, which I used to play, had the thumb ring link, which makes it difficult to play passages that go back and forth across the break, such as the Bb-B-Bb-B sequence in the Debussy Premiere Rhaposdy.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Daniel Frazelle
Date: 2008-05-15 12:35
I've had the chance to play the throat Bb/register key mechanism a number of times recently. The results are beautiful. The Bb sound fantastic and you never realize how much you phrase around the inadequacies of the Bb until you play this for a while. I'll probably have it done on my next set of clarinets.
I was initially concerned about needing to clear the thumb ring, but with very limited time playing this instrument off and on, I was able to adjust without even consciously trying.
Daniel Frazelle
Post Edited (2008-05-15 12:36)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-05-15 13:31
Is there a pic of this mechanism easily viewable? There has been patented [in US] exploration of a number of mechanisms for nearly 100 years, [those pats well expired of course], prominent among them Leblanc and Stubbins, with a number of varients, partic. for the larger cls. My 1960's bass and 1980's alto [Selmers], and my [borrowed] ?1940's? Leb sop are all somewhat diff. , the latter having Leon L's mech. as shown is his early patent [# available if asked], sounding somewhat related to Fox' solution. Just my abundance of early AM curiousity ! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-05-15 13:31
Leblanc did make some Bb clarinets with the same type of throat Bb mechanism as found on their pro altos and basses that has the throat Bb vent open when only the speaker key and A key are opened together (and the speaker vent remains closed until the A key is released when the vent keys switch over).
I can't remember if there was an extention soldered to the A key pad cup (pointing north) to give the extra leverage for the linkage arm that wrapped around the top joint, or if the linkage arm was acting directly on the throat A key pad cup.
This same clarinet had double pad cups on the RH F/C key as well.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-05-15 13:59
Here we go again. The Mazzeo Clarinet solved the Bb mechanism and any attendant ring problems by replacing the ring with a pad on the thumb facilitating a number of mechanistic problems. There was never a problem with the mechanism in any way as long as one developed the simple move of removing fingers so as not to open the side trill key, which also served the purpose of providing an "a" quickly whenever it was needed. I played these clarinets for 30 years, first as Principal in the Milwaukee Symphony Orchestra, performing the Mozart and most all the standard repertoire, including Peter and the Wolf, and Coc D'or many times, with never a problem. The problem was the brand as the clarinet was only manufactured by Selmer. Mine were "Centered Tone" (full Boehm) clarinets.
Lots of folk wanted it on Buffet and the only Buffet made was Rosies own "Claifornia Custom Clarinet",a wonderful instrument which I played on at CASS, a summer meeting in London in 1989, demonstrating for Rosie. A wonderful instrument and it had several patents. The problem was that Rosario joined the majority.
Sherman Friedland
Post Edited (2008-05-15 14:01)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-05-15 14:22
The main problem with the Mazzeo mechanism is that it didn't allow for any resonance fingerings for open G, and didn't allow the player to keep any fingers down, eg. when going from open G to B over the break (apart from keeping either LH or RH little fingers down).
Though it does give an excellent throat G-A trill by playing open G and trilling with any RH finger, and A-Bb by playing the normal throat A and trilling with any RH finger, plus more intervals and other things made easier bur still at the expense of the 'prepared' open G to B-F#intervals (though no doubt the player will become accustomed to this and find their own technique that works for them). I have been tempted by several Selmer Mazzeos listed on you-know-where, but never bit the bullet.
On Selmer Paris alto clarinets (going by Series 9 ones), the throat Bb mechanism hasn't got any adjusting screws from the link to the thumb plate to finely regulate the closure of the Bb vent while the thumb is closed which make things a pain, though it is possible to get it working but not nearly as easy as having a screw adjustment there. It has the fixed rocker (as seen on sax 8ve mechanisms) to make the switchover between the Bb vent and the speaker vent work, though it would help if all the parts of this mechanism were a good fit as any excessive play will result in reduced venting on both the vent key pads.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-05-15 16:14
Yer rite, Sherman, H'are we go agin. Can we blame register key problems on old Denner? Yer rite also, Chris, this Leblanc Ser. # 3763 [can anyone date it, please??], belonging to Bill Roberts of BVL, OK, a 1st cl'ist in Tulsa Comm Band has the doubled F/C pads, and a 7th ring for a [mediocre] fork for Eb/Bb, not as good as my Dyn 2 of later date. Will describe if asked. If I recall Debbi Reeves' descriptions/comparison with the Shackleton Leblanc in our [recent] ICA Journal "Historically Speaking" articles, there are some diffs. between these two Leblanc "pioneers". Are there more than these out in Cl-Land somewhere?. Will recheck our own archives. Perhaps the Fox ?re-engineering? will at long last give us a clean/clear Bb WITH the least disruption of our "normal" fingering patterns, which may have defeated wide-spread use {IMHO} of this fine advance. Thots, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2008-05-15 19:13
The Rossi site is back up. See http://www.rossiclarinet.com/english-site/opciones.htm# and mouse over "Rossi Bb Mechanism" for a photo from the back.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-05-15 19:41
Chris , in your first post you made mention re: the "operating lever" from the A Key [Leblanc, that is]. Looking at US 1,926,489, Figs. 2 and 6, are slightly diff. structures, that of #2 showing it from above the A padcup, #6 from the ?spatula. The cl I have here has the lever operating from just below the padcup, whereby the A is harder to actuate !! Ah, details ? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Joseph LeBlanc
Date: 2008-05-15 21:46
I had Steve Fox do the Modification on my main horn. The results are fantastic. After a few days I had no problems with the thumb lagging on the key.
He recommends against having the vent opened by activation the A key because the mechanism is heavy and makes the A key harder to depress where having it activated by the thumb ring is not noticeable in terms of feel.
I would love to try both ways though.
I'll post pics of my horn on the bboard at some point...
-Joe
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-05-15 23:16
Re Sherman's thoughts about Mazzeo, I don't see how a plateau thumb would help. You would still have to clear the plateau thumb key. That's probably more of an issue than a ring key. Perhaps there is more to the Mazzeo thumb mechanism than just a plateau thumb. In any case, I would highly recommend this mechanism to others.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-05-16 02:07
Arnoldstang:
What I've always thought about the thumb covered is that not only does it make for an easier and surer seal, it also somewhat dampens the thin quality of the "open" g. I have come to believe that it is one of the most salient features of the mechanism. As far as "resonance" being obtained from throwing fingers down whenever there is, say an open g, it only adds to the thoughtless movements one can make playing and does actually very little. I find that the Mazzeo clarinet allows one to have much more control of the sound and especially knowing what it is more exactly that you're playing, so as to leave more room for more sensitive playing. Of course, one can counter with making every move thoughtless, however actual technic, (control) begins with thought, not less, nor habit. Whatever opinion one may have re the issue of fingers up and down, I have made my living playing this particular clarinet system, so it remains my belief. It was a Selmer horn and not a lot of players in orchestras favored Selmer(except for the Boston Orchestra) . That has changed very much recently, especially with the addition of the Recital and more recent models, however 30-40 years ago there were dismissals from orchestras because of using this horn rather than the more popular Buffet.
Sherman Friedland
Post Edited (2008-05-16 02:13)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-05-16 10:23
Sherman, you were most likely in the right place at the right time to have adopted the Mazzeo system.
Unfortunately in other parts of the world (such as the UK) certain systems never made inroads due to what particular model or models were popular and readily available at the time (and Mazzeo systems were most likely never available off the shelf, or just languished in the stockroom as no-one was interested), and many players and teachers are not as open to suggestion or would adapt to playing something that isn't the norm as they have never been taught that system themselves, so they won't play or teach something they know very little or nothing about. Even full Boehms are considered alien to a lot of players who have only ever known standard 17/6 Boehms.
But I would consider Mazzeo system if I could get my hands on one. As I've said, I've passed on several of them - including some full Mazzeo systems which looked impressive bits of kit.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-05-16 19:54
It appears the Mazzeo system is far more complex than what I have on my clarinet. With my setup the timbric changes are still possible and from talking to Steve Fox he related that he still uses various fingerings to colour the throat Bb depending on the situation.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-05-16 20:27
You are quite right, A S, R Maz obtained 5 [I believe] US patents on his several inventions, the #'s are in our archives, I have copies of all. The initial [parent] pat 2, 8xx,xxx has most of his innovations. The NMM, USD, Vermillion has much of his papers and collection, a visit would be enlightening re: his expertise. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Wes
Date: 2008-05-16 21:28
The Mazzeo full Boehm clarinet that I overhauled a few years ago had a wonderful sound and the wood seemed to be the best. Overhauling it and adjusting it to work properly was an extremely tiresome job, however. To me it was more difficult than working on an oboe. Interestingly enough, it had a switch on it which disabled some or all of the Mazzeo features.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-05-17 15:28
This discussion has steered towards Mazzeo. In a nutshell what does the Mazzeo do? 1. Good throat Bb 2. ?
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-05-17 17:56
A. S. #1 Yes, using the next-to-top trill key, with the A, a V G Bb. # 2 Many more "improvements", read US 2,867,146 via Google Patents or USPTO. While there also look at Ellsworth 5,477,766 relating to an alternate A Key "touch" [spatula]. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-05-17 21:57
Rossi's Bb mechanism is like the ones fitted to some Leblanc clarinets, but a simplified mechanism in comparison to the standard Bb vent mechanism found on Vito/Normandy/Noblet altos and basses.
It works in the same way as the one fitted to the Noblet clarinet pictured in Jack Brymer's book in that when the thumb is off the thumb ring and the speaker key is opened, an additional vent key opens as well as the speaker key.
Reform Boehms have a Bb vent connected to the throat A key, and there are versions of it fitted to Boehms where the throat G# key actuates the Bb vent in conjunction with the speaker key (while the speaker vent itself remains closed).
Anyone know what kind of aftermarket Bb mechanism Michael Arrington had fitted to his Buffet Elites?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2008-05-18 13:26
Looking at Steve Fox's web site and inferring from his notation about having a "new" version of the throat Bb mechanism that was retrofitted to older clarinets, I suspect that over the years he has improved the mechanism's mechanical properties and perhaps the way it plays.
The three most-widely implemented throat Bb mechanisms from the 1940s through the 1960s -- specifically the patented Mazzeo mechanism, the patented Stubbins key, and the patented Leblanc key also used under license on the Selmer Omega -- went through a number of small mechanical modifications over the years which is probably what one would expect as manufacturers tweaked models over time to keep them looking new. (The fourth, the McIntyre seems to have had few mechanical improvements while it was in production although the runs from different manufacturers used by the McIntyre brothers do differ in "clunkiness" from batch to batch.) Mechanically, there seems to be some difference in the "smoothness" and "reliability" of the Mazzeo, Leblanc, and Stubbins keys as they evolved over 20 years or so (I own numerous exemplars of many of these, most of which have been restored) although it is impossible to know at this time the way in which these shipped from the factory and how much the keys may have been tweaked by skillful technicians working with specific musicians over the years. (I do have one example of a Mazzeo clarinet from the early 1960s which was purchased "unused" from the stock of a music store that "found" it after 40 years (it came with the original stickers on the body, a case that had enough dust to believe it had been on a shelf for 40 years), original documentation, and serial numbers consistent with its claimed age. That mechanism, while needing a little oil, worked very smoothly presumably in the condition it came from the Selmer factory.
(From a collector's-hobbyist's viewpoint, the Leblanc key models are those most often found on the well-known auction site attached to top-of-the-line models for their time, and tend to sell for fairly modest prices, especially since most sellers do not recognize what they are selling; at times, the Leblanc key models are mistaken for Stubbins key models by the sellers, and other times they are just described as having an "extra" key. Lower-end Bundy and Signet Mazzeo models are usually priced modestly as they appear relatively plentiful for the demand level.)
George
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-05-18 14:55
Thank You, George, a fine summary/comments. There are other inventors who created plausible inventive solutions to our "Bb problem", and other UJ/break "difficulties". The hanson/Bay, Ellsworth and ?another several patents apparently never received commercial attention, prob. due to the minimal acceptance of changes from the 17/6 to 20/7 "standard" Boehms. A patent search for "clarinet key systems" will provide lots of reading material, and some enlightenment, IMHO. AM Thots, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-05-20 13:09
"It is not necessary to understand things in order to argue about them."
Pierre Beaumarchais
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-05-22 14:23
"Anyone know what kind of aftermarket Bb mechanism Michael Arrington had fitted to his Buffet Elites?"
Just to answer my own question here, it's not a throat Bb mechanism on the Buffet Elite, but a vent that opens when the speaker key is opened.
The Selmer Recital low F resonance vent works in the opposite way - the small vent key on the lower joint closes either when low E is played, or when the speaker key is opened.
The photo (for Rico Grand Concert reeds) shows Michael Arrington pictured with an Elite, though he's holding the top joint so it's obscuring the keywork, though an extra pillar and key barrel can be seen where there isn't one normally (higher up the joint on the throat G# key side).
I've just seen an Elite which has such a mechanism fitted - the linkage is connected to the speaker key at the top end (an extention piece is soldered to the speaker key pad cup) and there's a linkage at the middle tenon which connects to the rest of the mechanism on the lower joint (which I assume is a small vent key on the underside, though there isn't a photo of it. The lower joint on this Elite is longer than normal (ie. the same length as a full Boehm lower joint) and E/B issues through a vent hole above the bell.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2008-05-22 16:13
Buffet offered a pitch correction vent on some but not all Elites. It opened for low F, but closed through an attachment to the register key for third-space C. The Selmer Recital has an option for the same kind of mechanism (which Ricardo Morales has on his instruments). The Buffet Tosca has a manual mechanism for the right little finger, and many Oehler instruments have one, usually operated by the right thumb.
Ken Shaw
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