 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: myshineyblackjoy
Date: 2008-05-05 01:02
I was on that icky auction site drooling over a few clarinet mouth peices and I came upon an ad. This person was calling it an R13, but, the top tenon had a big ol evette in the circle. And the key placement looked like my pre E11. So being a person who wants to share. I sent said person a little note telling them I did think there was an Evette R13. He messaged back that a professional repairmen had told him it was an r13 and I was wrong. I wrote back I didn't mean to offend. Just share my observation. Was it wrong of me to ask him about the clarinet? He only got 277 bucks for it.(smirk) (bad girl)(Sorry)What does anyone think about this?
And don't get me wrong I love my buffet. It was a birthday gift and she just sings for me. Someday I will obtain an R13 . Wondering how big of difference there will be from my Evette.......
Pamela J.
Post Edited (2008-05-06 20:45)
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-05-05 01:22
Hey, he got about what an Evette goes for, especially when he called it an R13. No need for you to feel bad about telling him the truth of the situation.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2008-05-05 01:40
You can only bring up information to people but you can't make them belief it .. kinda like dragging a horse to water, you just can't make them drink it.
I had the same thing when on that auction site someone was selling a Barklee clarinet for an ungodly amount of $$$. they said the seller did research and said it was made by Alexandre Selmer
interesting
I told them it was made in New York at the Barklee factory .. though I could be wrong of course as Alexandre had a NY factory .. just thought the timiing of things weren't right for that
Just tell them your info .. point them to a reference site and let it be .. that's about the best you can do =-)
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-05-05 03:45
There are Evettes and there are R13s but there is no such model as an Evette R13.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: myshineyblackjoy
Date: 2008-05-05 19:07
Hey Steve I am in MIchigan too. Who or where is your favorite repair place? Thinking about getting a few old clarinets and working on them. I am prettty handy with tools.....
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-05-05 21:17
Anderson Music in Troy is pretty decent for repairs. Tony really knows his clarinets. They are on Rochester, just a tad north of Big Beaver Rd. (I'm in Beverly Hills, MI)
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2008-05-05 21:17)
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Author: ricardo pereira
Date: 2008-05-06 19:37
its not one evette it says buffet crampon et ci a paris says pas evette
its one pre r-13 i am shure
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-05-06 19:56
No, as a matter of fact I don't agree.
While the shape of the letters in the words BUFFET and EVETTE are somewhat similar and a worn "BUFFET" might, at first glance, look like "EVETTE," the logo is, in fact, a professional Buffet logo. So your message to the seller suggesting the clarinet is an E11 was in error. There was nothing wrong in your seeking clarification but the seller was actually correct in the description.
I downloaded the photos and magnified them. On careful examination, the logo can be seen to read "Buffet" around the top of the oval "Crampon et Cie" though the middle and "A Paris" around the bottom. If it were an older Evette, it would read "EVETTE" around the top of the oval, "Sponsored by Buffet" in very small letters through the middle of the logo (much smaller than the letters through the middle of the eBay clarinet, BTW) and "PARIS FRANCE" around the bottom. The "Sponsored by..." logo also did not have the script BC "tail" on the bottom of the oval as this one does or the Lyre on top. (Later Evettes did have the Lyre but no tail and "EVETTE" was in the center of the oval, in any case.) Finally, the serial number, 35551, does not match the serial numbers used on wooden Evettes (and is not even close for an E11, whose numbers started in the 200,000's).
The clarinet was what has come to be called a "pre-R13" on this bulletin board, i.e., a professional Buffet model made before Buffet introduced the polycylindrical bore and began using the designation R13. The keywork shown is consistent with a professional Buffet of this vintage -- sometime in the late 1940's (shared post for the G# and A throat keys and triangle-shaped trill key guide). Though Buffet would not adopt the model designation R13 until the 1950's, Buffet's US importer at the time, Carl Fischer, used the designation in its catalog dating as far back (if memory serves) as the 1930's. So it was common practice to refer to these instruments as R13s and the repair tech (who probably knows a lot more than you were apparently willing to give him/her credit for) and the seller were technically correct in their description of the clarinet. The instrument brought around US$379 (not $279, which still would have been pretty high for an Evette of the same age), not because it was a mislabeled Evette but rather because of its age and condition (and perhaps its location). In particular, in the photos, some of the wood appears to be pretty badly dried out.
BTW, FWIW, while the Evette was the predecessor of the current E11 model, Buffet didn't use that designation and Carl Fischer referred to it as a Model E10 in its catalogs.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2008-05-06 20:01)
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Author: myshineyblackjoy
Date: 2008-05-06 19:58
How can you tell Ricardo? I am not doubtng you, But, I swear the logo above The a key says Evette. Woudn't be the firs time I was wrong or the last I am sure!!
Jack I learn more good stuff from you.I thirst for knowledge and don't mind being corrected. Kudos and thanks!!!!! Btw my evettes serial number is 203022. And I have the Lyre on top of my logo.....does that make it an e11?
Pamela J.
Post Edited (2008-05-06 20:06)
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Author: myshineyblackjoy
Date: 2008-05-06 20:11
AHH NOW i UNDERSTAND. And feel rather stupid. But, if one doesn't ask questions, one doesn't learn. Thanks for all your input!!!!
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-05-06 20:35
myshineyblackjoy,
Is your clarinet wood or plastic? And, if wood, by any chance, does your clarinet say "Made in (W(est) Germany" in small letters at the top of the back of the lower joint?
SS,
Different from the above description (if you are talking about mine) in what way? Lyre at the top and EVETTE through the middle. That was my description of the logo for the later (D-series) Evettes. The fact that the "EVETTE" was in the middle of the logo would make it virtually impossible to mistake the one in the eBay auction for it.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: myshineyblackjoy
Date: 2008-05-06 20:39
My clarinet is wood. How did you become so knowledgeable. It blows me away all the stuff you know. You could teach about clarinets and I mean that as a total compliment!!! And yes it was made in West Germany....
Pamela J.
Post Edited (2008-05-06 20:41)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-05-06 21:13
Most, if not all of what I'm telling you, has been discussed on this Board before over the years. Searching on "Evette" will yield over 1300 hits, some of which you may find interesting (or not).
The production of student-model Buffets was moved from France to the Schreiber factory in West Germany around 1978. From then until the early 80's (1981 is the date I'm inclined to believe but others on this Board would put it a few years later), the wooden student models manufactured there were designated as Evettes. In the early 80's (1981 or later), the designation was changed from Evette to E11. I've never handled a German Evette but my understanding is that their design was rather different from the French Evettes of the mid-70's (and, I'm afraid, not necessarily better) and I suspect, if I put one up against my early E11, I would find them virtually the same instrument. If that's true, then yes, for all intents and purposes, you essentially have an early E11.
Adding support to that conclusion is your serial number (which is what suggested to me that your clarinet was made in Germany). A French-made Evette from just a few years before yours would have been numbered in the 30- or 40-thousands with a D prefix. (I have one from 1976.) E11s, on the other hand, began somewhere in the 200000's so your serial number suggests that your clarinet was part of the "new line."
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: myshineyblackjoy
Date: 2008-05-06 21:26
Thank you. It's good to know but, I think I will just call her my Evette. And I have to tell you she just soars in the altissimo. I try to play everyday to keep my lip in shape so to speak(haha) . Bella Bartok and I are close friends.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2008-05-06 21:54
This clarinet was made in 1950. It's an R13 "Master Bore" professional clarinet. IMO the pre-R13 is incorrect name. (Mr. Francois Kloc is definitely wrong about the R13 designation).
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: saxoramirez
Date: 2008-05-17 23:20
Im actually confused and am needing some input. i went to the buffet site and did the history thing with the serial number, and when I typed the serial of my Evette, it said that it was an R13. can some one help me figure out if it is or isn't? the serial is 176645 and it appears to say "many" above the serial. another thing is my logo, its the Lyre with the circle, says Evette and only Evette in the middle, But the Buffet Crampon does not curve along the ring, it is just straight across. if you need pics, jus ask. can some one help me please!
Here is the History search on the Buffet site, and if you would like to do it on your own clarinet, jus go to the site, click on one of the links, then look for the "extranet" link to the right.
http://www.buffetcrampon.fr/WW70AWP/WW70AWP.EXE/CTX_2000-0-fJRQBnKSAa/ConsultHisto/SYNC_113054824
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-05-18 00:34
I believe, saxoramirez, that the serial number search function on the Buffet website does not include any of the Evettes. So although you are entering the Evette serial number it is responding with the age of the Buffet R13 that has the same number.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: saxoramirez
Date: 2008-05-18 01:01
i thought so to so i messed around with the numbers and if you type in 300, you get an evette bassoon i believe.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2008-05-18 17:32
Hey Vytas,
What is the history of the "Master Bore"? I have an old advertisement for them.
Are they just the name given to Buffet professional clarinets of the 1940s? What about 1930s (I have two of those)?
Bill.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-05-18 18:14
Saxoramirez,
The current Buffet serial number search does not include clarinets that were not made in the main Buffet factory. (According to Buffet promotional literature, when they were made in France, Evettes were made in a separate factory. Eventually their production was shifted to Germany.) I don't know anything about Buffet bassoon models. I can tell you that some serial numbers will turn up an "Evette" clarinet. However, these are actually the higher end Evette and Schaeffer models (E13), which were made in the main factory along with R13's. From your serial number and "many" I can tell you that you likely have a German made Evette made sometime between 1978 and 1981-84.
Bill,
Vytas will probably have more detailed information. I don't know how long Buffet referred to their bores as "Master Bores" or even if that was actually a Buffet designation or something dreamed up by Carl Fischer along with the original "R13" model identification. The term was clearly in use to describe Buffet bores prior to introduction of the R13. On the other hand, I have a copy of a (Carl Fischer) Buffet brochure from the 1960's (probably the late 1960's), long after the polycylindrical bore R13 was introduced, that still refers to the professional Buffet clarinet as a "Master Bore R13." It also includes "Master Bore" oboes and English Horns. So, it seems to me, that the most useful way to make the distinction may be to discuss cylindrical bore vs. polycylindrical bore professional Buffets because the term R13 was around both before and after introduction of the polycylindrical bore and so was the term "master bore."
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Bill
Date: 2008-05-18 18:25
Thanks Jack. Yeah, I figured "master bore" might just be marketing copy. Wasn't sure whether it did actually pertain in any meaningful way to pre-1950s Buffets. Sounds like no.
Still trying to figure out why my 1936 and 1938 Buffets have SUCH different bore sizes.
Bill.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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