 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: woody
Date: 2008-04-14 12:28
Does anyone out there know of a quick fix to tighten up rattling L/H & R/H pinky keys without having to spend money with a tech guy?
The worse ones are left & right side e/b & f#/c#
I have a pair of Buffett prestige clarinets that are around two years old. they are in very good condition & although i do realize that after 2 years a service is probably due, although the only thing notably needing attention is the looseness of the longer keywork.
Before I have to part with my hard(ly) earned cash with the tech guy i'm just wondering if there are any pearls of wisdom out there to help me give them a quick fix??
I really miss the feel of the silky smooth action from when these instruments were new!
Thanks in advance
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-14 14:06
You needn't part with any cash to do this, provided you have good screwdrivers with the correct size blades, and a pair of smooth jawed pliers to remove the screws with if you can't grip them too well with your fingers. And some key oil or motor oil.
Take each screw out in turn (but leave the keys in place), add a drop of oil to the screw thread (dip the thread in oil - synthetic engine oil will do, but NEVER use vegetable oil) and then replace the screw. This should quieten things.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: James
Date: 2008-04-14 14:19
Make sure that none of the cork/felt padding on the keys is missing. That can cause an awful racket and decrease the smoothness in key action. After two years without service it's entirely possible that they could have come off or at least worn down significantly. The good news is that it's easy to fix yourself as long as you have the materials and the patience.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-04-14 14:29
Chris' suggestion is good in some places, but since this is a new Buffet and the most problematic ones are both sides of F#/C# & E/B keys, then maybe it is the small nylon pins that are loose in the holes. In that case you might need to add a material to feel the gap (bladder is usual). Or some keys might be a little loose, although this is not very likely on a new Buffet Prestige. So for some keys the oil may help, but check those small pins by holding the part with the hole and move the lever if it feels loose.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-14 14:56
Oops! I forgot about the dreaded nylon pins!
Add a drop of thick (high viscosity) oil to where the nylon pins locate in the linkage arms of the E/B and F#/C# keys - but only a drop.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: woody
Date: 2008-04-14 15:14
Thanks all this great stuff. It really is about time I started to learn how to maintain and fix my instruments myself, after all I have been playing for 20 years and have always just handed it over to a tech with the slightest of problems!
Chris, which types of oil should I use? I have normal key oil, but you mentioned an oil with a higher viscosity for the nylon pins.
is there any particular brand you would recommend that I can buy?
clarinbass, what do you mean by 'bladder'? plse excuse my ignorance!
Ben
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2008-04-14 15:39
François Kloc uses axle grease for key lubrication. He says that it quiets the action and that the thickness doesn't affect key action.
There are repair techs in New York and presumably on the west coast who specialize in quieting key action for players in close-miced movie sound tracks and commercials. Anybody who can make a bassoon quiet is a genius. John Moses probably knows the names.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-14 15:45
Use either gearbox oil (for manual gearboxes - but not automatic transmission fluid as that's different) or engine oil for the nylon pins as it's fairly thick. If that's no good, a small amount of cork grease works for the nylon pins.
Bladder is the thin membrane (or skin) covering used on skin pads (usually two layers of skin, though Buffet Gore-Tex pads have a skin layer and a PTFE layer on the outside) - basically the same as sausage skin as it's the membrane from bovine intestines (also used for making gut strings on harps and other stringed instruments, and surgical stitches).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2008-04-14 17:52
Are the keys just noisy or is there actual end-to-end movement? Oil will quieten down the keys if no significant movement, but if there is end float then special tools and knowledge are required to fix.
Regular lubrication will really slow down wear as well as keep mechanism quiet.
You've laid out good money on good instruments so they deserve good attention, lubricate at least say twice a year.
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Author: davidsampson
Date: 2008-04-14 20:47
For my quick fix for rattling nylon pins:
Remove the offending keys.
Place a small bit of saran wrap / cling wrap / something thin over the nylon tips
Be careful to hold it in place, and put the key(s) back on.
Works like a charm, but not a very professional fix. I have done this to my E11.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-14 21:21
Similar to above, but cut the extreme corners off small plastic bags, open them up and cover the pins with these (like a tiny hat), with a dab of oil or grease on the pins to be sure they stay in place as you put the levers back on.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: woody
Date: 2008-04-14 22:22
This is all brilliant information. Thankyou.
Norman Asked <Are the keys just noisy or is there actual end-to-end movement?>
well the keys are noisy. There is an audible 'clank' when the RH e/b is depressed as well as the release.
I know this is common as its always been an issue on all my instruments, i have just never been able to fix it myself.
The nylon pins are all most definateley loose as I can wiggle the key whilst holding down the joining end, why is this? I mean what is it that moves over time to allow this to happen?
The worst offender is the LH Ab/Eb key. its really loose! & therefore very clunky!
I like the idea of cling film on the ends of the pins I will be trying that one.
I have key oil made by selmer, will this do?
Thanks again everyone
Ben
I also have a Bass prestige just over a year old....maybe I should invest in some more oil.......
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-14 22:47
"The nylon pins are all most definateley loose as I can wiggle the key whilst holding down the joining end, why is this? I mean what is it that moves over time to allow this to happen?"
It's a case of the holes in the linkages being over broached (the F#/C# needs some play in order for it not to bind when fully opened), or the nylon pins wearing or compressing.
Replacement nylon pins are easy enough to come by in the UK - just count yourself lucky you're not in the US where I've heard several people complain about getting parts for Buffets, and even something as simple as a nylon pin can take a matter of months to materialise.
Buffet nylon pins have a 2.4mm head and a 1.8mm shank. If they do break, they are only a push fit so heating the end of the key up will free them, or stick a hot needle into the broken end, wait for it to cool and pull it out.
Your Prestige bass has a fair amount of nylon pins - and the low C model has one on the end of the LH low D lever which has a huge amount of travel in it.
LH Ab/Eb keys do tend to get the rattles, so don't worry - it's common. A drop of oil will quieten things down. The Selmer key oil is thin which is fine for flutes and oboes, though only useful for rod screws on clarinets - though a thicker oil will be better.
But either apply oil with a needle, putting a single drop between the key barrel and pillar, though it's better to take the screw out, dip te thread in oil and replace it, then add a single drop to the gap between the pillar and key barrel at the end which the screw went in, and use a cotton bud or tissue to wipe any oil that runs down the pillars. Don't use too much key oil as it can contaminate pads making them sticky, or key corks making them fall off.
Depending on how much you're playing, you should really have your clarinets serviced between every 12 to 24 monthly intervals.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-04-14 23:10
Chris P wrote:
>
> Depending on how much you're playing, you should really have
> your clarinets serviced between every 12 to 24 monthly
> intervals.
>
Well i've had my Eatons since for 6/7 years now and never had them serviced, I think I should as i'm having the same problem on my Bb also the plating on the rings is going and infact gone on the left hand middle ring. The problem I have is when, I don't seem to have the time to not be without them for the time it takes to overhaul cause i'm always using them.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2008-04-15 00:40
Peter,
The Eatons I've seen do not have the pin into socket that the Buffet has.
As the pin wears the keys get loose and start making noise and thus have some slop in the action.
Of course, the pivot rod area could also wear and make some rattling, as could a lose of felt/cork in the mechanism
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-04-15 04:47
"Does anyone out there know of a quick fix to tighten up rattling L/H & R/H pinky keys without having to spend money with a tech guy?
The worse ones are left & right side e/b & f#/c#"
There are many possible causes. This is the trickiest part of a clarinet to work on and get right (unless it has Mazzeo, or articulated G#) so I regard this area as outside the scope of most DIY players. It is seldom just a matter of oiling. And getting the area as quiet as possible involves using materials that are probably difficult for the DIY to get hold of. Eg I have just dealt with this on a brand new Selmer. An important part of my arsenal was a specialised, firm, synthetic felt in several locations. Working with such materials in linkages means adjustment can no longer be made by sanding the linkage material, which takes the operation outside the scope or DIY.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-04-15 05:52
Woody Ben
basically to repair a noisy key you first have to figure out what is causing the noise. Do you know if the noise for those keys is coming from the rattling levers? Or is there also noise from their key barrels or rods heating posts, etc.?
Oil may help in some cases, but depending on how rattly the lever pins are it might not be enough and you'll need feeler. If there is noise from a key with pivot screws (two small screws one on each side) then maybe they are not tightened enough? Or it could be something else. If it's on a rod screw (a long screw inside the key barrel) then the key could be loose over the rod, or at the ends, etc.
Oil might not help all the problems, but if you don't mind ordering online (from USA) then this oil http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/products/lubr-a101.html or the Medium Viscosity one here http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/products/ulti-150.html are good for general use on clarinet. I also have a very thick oil I sometimes use and the High Viscosity one from the second link might be good for that too.
For the lever pins and other places you can use grease instead of oil. As much as I like the oils from Ultimax above I really don't like their grease. I like the grease from this place http://www.doctorsprod.com/store/comersus_listItems.asp?idCategory=7 he has two types the black one is harder than the brown one. By the way I don't like the key oil from this place.
Maybe you can find similar products locally (I can but only in way too large quantities). If you order from Music Medic you can order a few clarinet pads and use the bladder for the lever pins http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/products/pad-c10.html and if you do they all cost the same so get the biggest ones.
About the Ab/Eb lever, you will notice the plastic pin is not inside a hole, but at the top of the triangle that is soldered to the key. What sometimes happens is the lever leans on the clarinet and this way the pin is below the top of this triangle and creates double action which feels like a rattley key. This depends on the weight of the key and in playing position it is usually like this. This is fixed by the silencing material at the buttom of the lever. It needs to be the correct thickness to not have double action but not leave the Ab/Eb key open.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-04-15 10:12
For pins in general:
I find such elastomer materials introduce an unwanted 'springiness' into the linkage. The more 'positive' an action is, the better.
If there is enough space for it (and there often is not) then my favourite is polyester (I think) spinnaker cloth, 0.05 mm (0.002") thick. IT has low friction, and is so tough that it is difficult to penetrate between my canine and it's matching lower tooth. Otherwise, "goldbeater skin" (pad membrane). By comparison, all plastic films I have tried puncture very easily.
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2008-04-17 07:33
plumbers tape works really well. it's super thin, and quiets most action issues i've encountered.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-04-17 12:20
In my experience, plumbers tape also crushes and punctures very easily and quickly, at which time it ceases to work efficiently here. We have metal contacting metal again.
The stuff is designed for sealing, not enduring a hiding from movement against it.
Post Edited (2008-04-17 12:20)
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