 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-04-08 02:32
Its said by some that materials don't make a difference, only dimensions.
So why aren't plastic clarinets made with the same dimensions that their wooden counterparts are made with?
Why not make a plastic R13? Is is strictly economics that it isn't done?
Would a plastic lyrique play the same as a hard rubber one ?
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-04-08 02:38
I have seen mention of it on Steve Fox's website. Also, some pro oboes come in plastic- so maybe it is only 'tradition' that clarinets don't use plastic.
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Author: LonDear
Date: 2008-04-08 03:21
I can't tell the difference from the "sound" of the various materials. I perform on a variety of grenadilla and hard rubber instruments. I would really like to have silver plated keys on my 'rubber' horns, but that is not an option.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2008-04-08 03:27
It would be great to have a plastic R13 (or your favorite flavor) that you could use for stressful situations - gigs that might be outdoors, in cold pits, churches, or other where you wouldn't want to risk your wooden instrument.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-04-08 03:33
Ed wrote:
> It would be great to have a plastic R13 (or your favorite
> flavor) that you could use for stressful situations - gigs that
> might be outdoors, in cold pits, churches, or other where you
> wouldn't want to risk your wooden instrument.
Isn't that the main selling point of the Buffet Greenline?
In spite of the Buffet advertising, in mind, the Greenline is basically a plastic R13.
...GBK
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2008-04-08 04:00
>"Its said by some that materials don't make a difference, only dimensions".<
This kind of nonsense is getting annoying. Any person (including Mr. Benade) who can not hear the difference has potatoes in his ears and with age it gets worse. It's strange but potato-heads are always in denial. Even if they can hear some difference they blame it on design or a player and so on.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2008-04-08 04:19
Given that rubber, plastic, wood, and metal all must be machined differently (you can't even make a good rosewood clarinet the same way as a grenadilla one, or so I've read); and given that even two supposedly identical instruments made the same way by the same maker from the same materials will play differently; and given that in practice plastic, rubber, and wood clarinets are generally made for different markets... I steadfastly refuse to believe that it can be objectively proven one way or the other that "materials don't make a difference, only dimensions." Some highly respected people claim to hear differences; some highly respected people claim they don't. I do not presume to label either camp as wrong.
What I do believe, though, is that with increasing scarcity of high quality grenadilla, economics will dictate greater acceptance of clarinets made of other materials as time goes on. And that talented makers will supply good-sounding non-grenadilla clarinets, whether you believe they sound as good as grenadilla or not.
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Author: Dano
Date: 2008-04-08 04:20
One of my first few posts here (a few years ago) was about how I did not hear much of a difference between plastic clarinets and wooden clarinets. I was dismissed as complete novice for having even brought up such a horrid subject. It's nice to see that someone else with expertise is questioning what I have questioned for years.
Post Edited (2008-04-08 04:21)
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2008-04-08 06:13
you have to remember there is a long standing wood bias as a justification for commanding a higher price. Now back to the original post
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2008-04-08 07:17
Vytas, it's just not as cut and dry as you make it. I have never seen a plastic clarinet made to the same specifications as a wooden one. The lack of such a specimen makes it impossible to state with the degree of authority that you do that the material absolutely makes a difference and that anyone who doesn't hear it is foolish.
After a few days, I believe players on Greenline instruments sound almost identical to when they perform on solid wood clarinets. How can you account for this if it's such an open and shut case?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-08 09:13
Howarth have made several pro model clarinets in plastic (and what with the jet black shiny plastic and the silver plated keywork, they do look nice), using the same dimensions as their wooden counterparts as the joints are turned and bored in the same manner.
But it's the general attitude of buyers that they don't want to pay the same price for a plastic bodied clarinet as a wooden one (as plastic is usually considered cheap or for student instruments) - even though the manufacturing cost can be much higher with plastic instruments due to some of the difficulties of working with plastic compared to wood.
I've only compared all plastic cors anglais with all wooden ones (of an identical model, body material being the difference), and there's an obvious difference in sound between them - the all plastic ones being more brash or raw (or 'open') in tone in comparison to all wooden ones which have more resonance when played with the same reed and crook.
I know my plastic Yamaha YCL-24 is a student model, but it's pretty much based on a Selmer Series 9. It plays just as well as the Selmer, but lacks the tonal depth. Though that's not to say it has a poor tone in comparison - it's just a different tone, but still very much a clarinet tone and one I can live with and wouldn't be afraid to use it in an orchestral setting.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2008-04-08 11:08)
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Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2008-04-08 10:09
I've played one of Steve Fox's all plastic clarinets. Superb instrument in all respects. I just wish I could afford one!
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2008-04-08 11:12
(Disclaimer - I am maker of Forte' Bb plastic, wooden C clarinets, and mouthpieces and barrels)
Just a bunch of facts and observations with little in the way of value judgments - make your own conclusions or do your own testing:
As a seller of both plastic and wooden clarinets and the person paying the manufacturing bills I can say that at present the cost of material to make a clarinet is not greatly different for quality plastic, quality hard rubber, and aged Grenadilla wood. The cost is in manufacturing. Our own market research indicates, that at a similar price point, that the great majority of players prefer a wooden clarinet over plastic. This is the reason we are not making a plastic Forte' C clarinet. There is a wood bias.
As GBK points out I believe that the experiment has been done. For all intents and practical purposes the Buffet Greenline is a plastic instrument - advertising gimmickry aside for the attributes of plastic with a wood filler material (IMO).
In a different sound making venue - further up the tree (pardon the analogy) my own acoustical testing and research indicates that the type of material, in this case the formulation of the hard rubber, makes a difference in the sound qualities as measured by acoustical parameters, produced by barrels and mouthpieces made of different formulations of hard rubber, or wood. It is difficult however to put universally accepted and subjective terminology on differences in frequency spectrum analysis.
In terms of importance I ultimately believe that the player makes the greatest difference in sound produced followed in importance by the parts going downward to the clarinet body. Configuration of these parts (design), and manufacturing quality also play a huge part in their function.
As you can tell I am staying away from the potato fields !!
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-04-08 11:17
I bought a Leblanc Aniversary edition Clarinet back in 2002 (or 03 at the latest) that was supposed to have the same internal dimensions as their top of the line Clarinets (Opus or Concerto - it didn't specify). Got it from the Woodwind Brasswind and the cost was around $350.
Either the advertizing was bogus, or not, but the Clarinet played like any other plain plastic clarinet. Was excited at the thought, but it was a big let down.
Just did a search for it and couldn't find that anywhere, but I remember it pretty well. Ended up selling it shortly afterwards. It was to a student who ended up quitting about a year later, but I still keep in touch with the family so could ask for a picture of it.
I just looked all over the net for anything on it at all and came up empty. Maybe it was Woodwind's ad and not Leblanc?
As Omar said yes, the player is first and foremost.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
Post Edited (2008-04-08 11:33)
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Author: kilo
Date: 2008-04-08 11:59
As far as I know, none of the perceived differences in sound between the various materials used have ever been picked up by audience members or the listening public.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-04-08 13:37
Unfortunately I have never observed the making of any clarinet and so, am at a loss to comment with authority on that aspect of the subject. It is my impression, however, that "true" "plastic" horns such as those made from ABS are injection molded. This process requires the making of molds from tool steel which is a very expensive process. It is further my impression that such clarinet sections have no subsequent machining done on the bore but, rather, only on the tenons, sockets and tone holes. Further, there is probably some filler added to the ABS and in addition some "regrind" of discarded ABS. All of these factors plus others help to illustrate that talking about "plastic" clarinets is usually rather superficial. I suppose that some might consider Greenline material to be plastic but I rather think of it as a "composite" material held together with "glue". And as has been pointed out many times there are various formulations of hard rubber.
But, in direct response to the question, what would be the point in making a plastic clarinet to the same dimensions as a wood one? To supposedly prove or disprove that material does or does not make a difference? I don't think it would prove anything like that.
Bob Draznik
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-04-08 13:42
I have a recording of the Dowani series accompaniments that has the Stamitz Concerto # 3 that's got the brightest tone that I've ever heard.
Don't know if it was a wooden clarinet or not, but was scary. Maybe he was playing a Kazoo.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: patrickryan04
Date: 2008-04-08 14:09
Buffet's statement on the Greenline horn is that it will not crack. That simply is not true. I had a R-13 greenline crack on me in Febuary. Just thought I would put that out there.
1st Armored Division Band
Clarinetist
Dixie Band
Woodwind Quintet
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-04-08 14:20
Arthur H. Benade was an acoustician as well as a musician who gave many a presentation at early Clarinet Clinics and various symposia dedicated to our weapon of preference. He even played the Mozart (the one of which Stadler pawned the score and parts) at one of these on a garden hose. He was regarded rather as " a village idiot" by many of the club, however he implanted in my very young mind an idea: this was to take two blocks of resonite to Paris and have Selmer make me a set of beautifully made and tuned clarinets. (suffice it to say, I was very young, but I was a Selmer Clinician, (whatever that means), so I thought I had clout, which I did not. Though juvenile, the idea stayed in my mind to have been brought to fruition by the scoundrels at Buffet for more than three grand for a horn. But there are many who love the Greenline and I am happy for them, though not the price. As to hard rubber or ebonite, Anthony Baines who wrote in his excellent "Woodwinds and their History" said that "many fine players though play ebonite which have a sweeter though a softer tone than does wood". This was first published a half century ago. That idea is quite true. The sound of hard rubber is much sweeter than wood, but not as loud. I play them so I feel that to be true, having come to this conclusion after I started playing hard rubber. But as an aside, the Ridenour A clarinet is unsurpassed by any other instrument in that key for just those reasons. A clarinets are a bit more resistant than Bb for obvious reasons, but the rubber A is a perfect match for my Bb and the tuning is by far the best.
So yes, it is totally agreed that different substances do emit different qualities, call these qualities what you will, but in the case of an A clarinet, I find the material (ebonite) absolutely ideal. It is important to remember the work of Arthur Benade and all those others who have experimented with the acoustics of the clarinet as well as the materials.
Sherman Friedland
Post Edited (2008-04-08 14:24)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-04-08 14:45
Thanks, Sherman.
BTW, I do have the Benade Acoustics book on my bookshelf but did not make the mental connection. I was reminded of Bonade's comment on MPs (pick one and throw the rest away...) instead and thought there was a typo.
HRL
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2008-04-08 15:31
(Disclaimer - I am a formulist of hard rubber)
Having spent the last several years investigating the properties, formulation, making batches of hard rubber, and testing the acoustics of the batches, IMO it is hard to classify it in one generic term because there are vast acoustic differences depending on the formulation, cure, and formation of the hard rubber appliance (be it mouthpiece, barrel, or clarinet body) from a molded (or extruded) and then vulcanized format to machining the part out of vulcanized rod rubbber stock. The formulation in molded rubber by necessity must be different than that for making rod rubber stock. The appreciation of the sound produced is in the ear of listener no matter what the process.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2008-04-08 16:33
I have to imagine that the way the sound waves resonate off the material would be one of the other biggest differences (I don't know if this was already mentioned or not -- I just browsed through the rest of the postings). If you yell into a metal megaphone or a paper one the sound is going to be different. Why would the same not apply here? Plastic vs. grenadilla?
Mr. Henderson said it best:
"The appreciation of the sound produced is in the ear of listener no matter what the process."
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Author: Ed
Date: 2008-04-08 17:00
GBK wrote:
>Ed wrote:
>> It would be great to have a plastic R13 (or your favorite
>> flavor) that you could use for stressful situations - gigs that
>> might be outdoors, in cold pits, churches, or other where you
>> wouldn't want to risk your wooden instrument.
>Isn't that the main selling point of the Buffet Greenline?
>In spite of the Buffet advertising, in mind, the Greenline is basically a plastic >R13.
>...GBK
Oh, I thought I asked about plastic and not composite wood fiber ![[huh]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie11.gif)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-04-08 17:18
Ed wrote:
> Oh, I thought I asked about plastic and not composite wood
> fiber
Grenadilla DUST, a SMALL percentage of polycarbonate fiber, mixed together with epoxy resin, is in my book still a plastic instrument.
As a long time Buffet player, I have tried MANY Greenline clarinets, and there is something different about their sound. Perhaps that difference is less noticeable to the audience, but to my ears, close up, something is missing.
I am also aware that a number of pros/amateurs find them to their liking, but I have yet to find one I've been motivated enough to own...GBK (who owns 10 Buffet R13's)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-04-08 17:26
I have a dissertation that compares flute bodies of different materials and wall thicknesses using objective spectral measurements. Conclusion: NO DIFFERENCE in acoustic waveform.
lets sick some music/techno grad student on the problem of making objective measurements of clarinet acoustics. Designing the experiment will be tough (mpc, barrel, upper joint, lower joint, material, wall thicnkess, bell, pitch chosen, ...)
The only way that the material used to make a clarinet can matter is if it vibrates with the note being produced (and its harmonics). If it vibrates, and if its movement is significant, then material properties such as specific stiffness will affect the sound.
So, what's the specific acoustic impedance of a clarinet body?
Bob Phillips
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2008-04-08 17:35
The Buffet adverstising clearly states that the Greenline material is 95% grenadilla. I see no reason to doubt this. If you want to say that the other 5% of epoxy is a huge difference, fine. But don't be swayed by personal experience of playing the horn. While this might seem to be the best indicator, the reality is that the vibration of the horn in our hands has a HUGE impact on what we perceive for sound. This is true in wood vs. Greenline, but also in models across the clarinet spectrum that feel different than we're used to. These impressions are not to be trusted because we are too close to make the determination of whether or not it actually sounds the same.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-04-08 17:37
GBK - yup, felt and heard the difference right away. For a player like Bob Spring living in Arizona it makes complete sense, but without the harsh conditions I can't justify it
yet......... (cause we haven't run out of good wood yet).
But eventually that will cease to be used as it will run out. Maybe not in your lifetime, maybe not mine, but probably in our kids lifetime it will.
I wonder how much the old wooden clarinets will cost then??
JJ, when I tried many Backun Barrels I had preferences of what wood I thought was the most attractive. Yet though I thought that one wood was absolutely gorgeous, it didn't have the best sound so I picked what did. My wife who was listening also prefered it with her back turned. It wasn't how I was playing, but what I was playing that made the difference. Backun products are made quite evenly so doubt that it was the dimensions that I didn't prefer, it was the wood.
Are the backun dimensions variable in the barrels or is the equipment such that it cuts the same every time? (from one to another) And still with a couple of each wood I did feel and hear the difference. My eye wanted one, but my ear picked another.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
Post Edited (2008-04-08 17:45)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2008-04-08 17:48
J.J. contrary to the Buffet advertising the Greenline material is not 95% Grenadilla - it would not be strong enough without much, much more resin than filler.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Ed
Date: 2008-04-08 17:59
"GBK (who owns 10 Buffet R13's)"
You are one sick guy! ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
forget about plastic or anything else, I am still waiting for these guys
http://www.matitflutes.com/
to make a clarinet!
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-04-08 18:01
Let's stop for a brief moment and give the Buffet executive(s) who came up with the Greenline instrument the award of "Marketing Genius of the Decade"
With one single instrument he accomplished 5 distinct goals.
1. Gave an alternative choice to those who have lost faith in the quality of the regular Buffet grenadilla instruments to resist cracking.
2. Found a use for the excess grenadilla (read: grenadilla wood with serious defects which could not be filled) and grenadilla dust, scraps, etc...
3. Marketed the new instrument as weather resistant and crack resistant in harsh temperatures.
4. Made Buffet look environmentally responsible by recycling waste material and using less pure wood for their clarinets.
5. By pricing the new Greenline the same as a wooden R13, thus convincing the clarinet buying population on the idea that the grenadilla R13 and the Greenline R13 are virtually (and acoustically) valued the same.
I hope they give him a big raise and bonus.
He deserves it ...GBK
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-08 18:04
"I wonder how much the old wooden clarinets will cost then??"
Maybe by that time somewhere in the not-too-distant future, the single large company that owns all the current big makes will do what Ford and Renault did recently - offer a cash back incentive for anyone with any old wooden clarinet to part exchange it against a new composite one (though the cash back offer will be the same regardless of make or model), and then pulverise the old wooden ones taken in part exchange to make the composite for new ones.
A bleak outlook maybe, though it's possible.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-04-08 18:15
Let's stop and give Buffet executive(s) who came up with the Greenline instrument the award of "Marketing Genius of the Decade"
-----------------------------
was it Al Gore? 
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-04-08 18:39
Perhaps it is a good time to remember one of our very great clarinetists, Gaston Hamlin, Principal Clarinetist of the Boston Symphony Orchestra, whose contract was not renewed by the conductor Serge Koussevitsky in 1931. The reason given: "Koussy" did not like the metal Selmer Clarinet played by Mr Hamlin. Hamlin went back to France. Ralph Mclane went back with him to study. He returned and became Principal in Philadelphia for many years, helping to establish the so-called "American School" The rest is history.
Those very same Selmer metal Clarinets, (full boehm) were removed from the Selmer Catalog. Reason: "It hurt our prestige" Those particular clarinets are now worth their weight in Greenbacks when they appear on "the" venue. (I really wish someone would buy me one, or send me one.)
http://www.uark.edu/ua/nc/NCCollectionPage/Page/SelmerMetalFullBoehm.htm
Sherman Friedland
Post Edited (2008-04-08 20:11)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2008-04-08 19:34
Dear patrickryan04,
Ok, I really would like some specifics of the Greenline crack. Where did it crack? Did it crack like wood with a faultline running longitudinally? Did it go completely through the horn? Under what conditions (if known for sure) did it crack?
I have seen brute force tear off the bottom joint tenon before, but the idea of a crack in epoxy sounds counterintuative. A picture would be best.
And most importantly..........was it a GI horn?
................Paul Aviles (Mr. Curious)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-04-08 19:38
If McLane hadn't died of Cancer I wonder how many years more he would have played in Phila. - could have been many more than the 8 years that he played.
What a great player, beautiful sound. I like his playing better than Bonade.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
Post Edited (2008-04-08 19:38)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-04-08 20:32
"polycarbonate fiber," My impression is that there is chopped carbon filament in the mix.
Wood, having longitudinal "fibres" tends to crack longitutinally or, more precisely, with the grain. Plastic clarinet sections tend to crack transversely. What Buffet seems to imply is that the Greenlines won't crack like wood clarinets. What they don't say is that if they do crack chances are that they will crack like plastic clarinets.
"idea of a crack in epoxy sounds counterintuative."
Can't imagine where you got that impression. Even fibreglas reinforced boat hulls held together with epoxy can crack. Same for ladders made that way. And Corvettes.
Bob Draznik
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Author: patrickryan04
Date: 2008-04-08 21:14
Paul,
Yes the greenline did crack. The crack travels from the tone hole of the a2 key and travels all the way up the horn. The crack penetrated the top outer layer of the horn but did not travel to the cork.
The horn is a "GI" horn however, it is the horn I myself have used for the past year since it was purhased and I can assure you that proper care was given to this horn. It was brought to Iraq in late September, kept and played indoors with a consistent tempiture. As I said in the earlier post the horn cracked in Febuary.
Febuary in Iraq is much like spring in New York. The only thing odd that I noticed weather wise is that the humidity was very high, anywhere from 25 to 35%. In a few days I will get a picture up of the horn. Also we have a few older grenadila R-13s here the we came upon from the band we replaced here. These horns were thrown out into a metal container and stored out side for months and they didn't crack odd huh?
1st Armored Division Band
Clarinetist
Dixie Band
Woodwind Quintet
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Author: Jkelly32562
Date: 2008-04-08 21:37
I have a question along the same lines of construction materials. I am interested in hearing opinions on Silver plated vs nickle plated versus gold plated keys. My clainet instructor is allergic to nickle, so I could understand that preference for silver or gold, and I have silver plated keys, but my Selmer Series 10 S II wasnt available with nickle. What differences should I expect if I were to play a horn with nickle or gold keys?
Jonathan Kelly
jkelly32562@troy.edu
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-08 22:12
"What differences should I expect if I were to play a horn with nickle or gold keys?"
You should expect no difference.
But strictly speaking, as no two wooden clarinets are identical, the one with nickel plated keys will play differently to the one with gold plated keys for the simple reason they're both different instruments, regardless if they both have the same plating or different, they'll never play exactly the same as each other. If the one with nickel plated keys plays better than the one with gold plated keys, go for the one that plays best.
The only way you will notice any difference (if any) is if you start off with a nickel plated clarinet and have it completely overhauled so it's better than it was when new (even though it IS new). Now you can tell how well it really plays.
Then get it completely stripped down and have all the keywork and fittings silver plated over the nickel plate, then rebuilt by the same person that did the previous job (providing their work is consistant).
Now see how it feels and plays - but now you can't make a direct comparison as to how it played previously as you've only got the same instrument back but with silver plated keys this time.
Then you could have it all stripped down again and this time gold plated over the silver which is plated over the nickel (which is probably plated over copper which is plated over the base metal which is nickel silver), then rebuilt by the same chap or chapess and see if it's any different to how you remember it to have been.
I reckon it'll only feel different under the fingers (the amount of friction between your fingers and the plating, and some slight differences in the spring tension unless they measure the tension of each key, note it all down and balance it exactly each time), though it'll still play the same way as keywork plating has absolutely no effect upon the tone of the clarinet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2008-04-08 23:28
GBK wrote:
"2. Found a use for the excess grenadilla (read: grenadilla wood with serious defects which could not be filled) and grenadilla dust, scraps, etc...
4. Made Buffet look environmentally responsible by recycling waste material and using less pure wood for their clarinets."
Keep in mind that something like 75% of the billet is wasted in manufacturing the clarinet. Between the lathing process, cutting down for the tone holes and boring, there was much waste over the years.
Somewhere along the way I was told that Buffet was able to receive some type of tax benefit or some other financial incentive for developing an environmentally friendly or product. Maybe someone knows something about this.
I think it was a smart thing and a great use of what was otherwise going to waste.
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-04-09 00:29
For those who don't know what Buffet's Greenline is exactly, its a compound of 95% ebony dust and 5% carbon fiber. The carbon Fiber completely eliminates the risk of cracking and reuces the effect of temperature and humidity.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-04-09 03:05
I have tried several Greenline clarinets in stores over the years. My general impression is that the sound is different. Not very different, but different. Not better or worse, just different.
Here is a hypothetical idea I would like to throw out...
Let's just all hypothetically say (even those of us that don't think so) that the material makes a difference. Any two kinds of wood, or formulas of plastic will play differently from eachother.
Nearly all of have been playing on wood for most of our time on clarinet and have gotten used to the qualities that wood has. We have learned to compensate for what wood does well and poorly. So, when we play any other material we feel that it is different (read "bad") and dislike it. But, if we had all played only well made plastic instruments for years and then got a wood one, we would feel that the wood is poor in tone and acoustic properties because we had all learned to compensate for what plastic does well and poorly. So one would have to play slightly differently on wood or plastic.
Is it that plastic is really "bad" or is it that we have not learned how to play it properly??
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2008-04-09 06:06
so who can confirm whether the greenline is 95% wood and 5% epoxy? Wouldn't they get sued in court for false advertisement if the ratio of wood to epoxy wasn't the case?
there's alot of bias from gbk's Point of view, but that is understandable as he has a stable of clarinet ponies.
pat pat*
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2008-04-09 06:55
I find this thread to be so very interesting. I was going to just stay in the background, however, I believe "kilo" hit the nail right square on the head.
Yes, I believe that different materials produce slight variations in sound... "to the player" and to anyone within a very short radius who still has a good hearing ability.
Can you still hear the "ping" or the "ring" 50 to 80 feet away? Can the majority of the audience really tell if someone is playing a plastic or wooden clarinet? Don't partials and harmonics die out rather quickly the further they go away from the instrument?
I suspect that at some distance away from the performer, all clarinets begin to have a similar sound to them.
To D.B.: When your wife helped you pick out which barrel to purchase, how far away was she? 6 feet? 10 feet? Or was she 50 to 75 feet away? If she couldn't really tell much of a difference at 75 feet away, would you have chosen the "prettier" one or the one that sounded best "to you"?
I truly believe that the audience does not hear "exactly" what the player hears.
All of the above are simply my opinions. If I'm wrong on anything, please correct me...I'm here to learn.
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2008-04-09 09:13
-- "I truly believe that the audience does not hear "exactly" what the player hears. " --
I don't think anybody would disagree with that, particularly those who have recorded themselves playing.
This discussion has gone on for years, and yes, it is fascinating.
Of course, there is the problem, that has been mentioned, of wooden clarinets being more expensive than plastic, more attention given to the undercutting etc, so it's quite difficult to compare them anyway. Surely, what you need is to compare a wooden and plastic model, both of which have been made the same way, received the same amount of work, finishing etc, and then see if someone can tell the difference.
Could not someone organise a double-blind testing session, if only for fun? I think Tom Ridenour did something like this. Blindfold someone and get them to play the same piece (same barrel/MP) on various clarinets, with the audience giving marks for each one.
Steve
PS I don't expect Buffet to sponsor a double-blind test, for the same reason that the french stopped doing the same at wine competitions! ;-)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-04-09 10:49
DavidB- I was talking about plastic as a material, not the current production of plastic clarinets. Replace all the "plastic" in the post with "Greenline" as that is a real example.
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Author: patrickryan04
Date: 2008-04-09 10:53
Ryder wrote:
The carbon Fiber completely eliminates the risk of cracking and reuces the effect of temperature and humidity.
The carbon fibers do not completely eliminate the risk of cracking.
1st Armored Division Band
Clarinetist
Dixie Band
Woodwind Quintet
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-09 11:29
I've heard of instances of Buffet Greenline oboes developing cracks in the same place common to wooden ones - between the trill toneholes.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-04-09 12:40
Barrels are like a mate
, pick the one with depth for the long haul, not the one who just looks best. When I got my Backun I actually had to get used to the look as I strongly preferred the regular buffet barrel look to the non matched color of the cocobolo.
I excluded the Snakewood based on what my ears told me.
Fortunately she agreed with me and she was about 10 ft away. If she hadn't, I would have gone with what I heard as I'm the one who has to play it. I always had her back turned so that there wouldn't be bias.
As for the Greenline, I didn't like the sound nor how it felt.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-04-09 13:17
"For those who don't know what Buffet's Greenline is exactly, its a compound of 95% ebony dust and 5% carbon fiber. The carbon Fiber completely eliminates the risk of cracking and reuces the effect of temperature and humidity."
Why perpetuate misinformation as if it were fact?
"its just because plastic clarinets are crap." Blummy, you know this is not true, but I do appreciate your sense of humour.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-04-09 13:18
"J.J. contrary to the Buffet advertising the Greenline material is not 95% Grenadilla - it would not be strong enough without much, much more resin than filler."
Well said, Omar.
Ryder: "For those who don't know what Buffet's Greenline is exactly, its a compound of 95% ebony dust and 5% carbon fiber. "
Yes, that is the statement in the Buffet-Crampon web site. But of course it is not true, because there would be nothing to hold those materials together. I guess that it means that a mixture of "95% ebony dust and 5% carbon fiber" is mixed with some sort of binder, almost certainly something like an epoxy resin.
I see this as dishonest of Buffet, but it suits the image they are trying to make. For all we know, there may be 70 % binder, and the REST is in the proportions mentioned.
"The carbon Fiber completely eliminates the risk of cracking and reuces the effect of temperature and humidity."
I don't know that that is accurately reported. Buffet goes further:
The website says:
"The addition of carbon fibres means that Green Line clarinets are not susceptible to variations in atmospheric conditions (changes in temperature and humidity), the risk of cracking is therefore eliminated."
I very much doubt that this is true. The binding agent is almost certainly a polymer - plastic - and plastics are subject to dimensional changes with changes in temperature, probably more so than timber is. Timber changes more with humidity, but many plastics absorb moisture and expand accordingly, eg this is a problem with nylon bearings.
JJ: ""
David Blumberg: "But eventually that will cease to be used as it will run out. Maybe not in your lifetime, maybe not mine, but probably in our kids lifetime it will. I wonder how much the old wooden clarinets will cost then??"
After the dust has settled, they may possibly be in the same category as wooden mouthpieces are now. :-)
Omar:
"Having spent the last several years investigating the properties, formulation, making batches of hard rubber, and testing the acoustics of the batches, IMO it is hard to classify it in one generic term because there are vast acoustic differences depending on the formulation, cure, and formation of the hard rubber appliance (be it mouthpiece, barrel, or clarinet body) from a molded (or extruded) and then vulcanised format to machining the part out of vulcanized rod rubber stock. The formulation in molded rubber by necessity must be different than that for making rod rubber stock. The appreciation of the sound produced is in the ear of listener no matter what the process"
I'm not sure that composition of a mouthpiece has a lot to do with composition of a body. A mouthpiece is slapped hard by the solid reed. How the material responds in returning the energy to the reed is highly significant, and highly dependent on that material. By comparison, a body can hardly be said to be slapped.
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2008-04-09 13:24
My belief is that a plastic, rubber, whatever... clarinet constructed in such a way that every dimension is the same (bore dimenstions & texture, chimney heights, key shape & pad shape/density, undercutting, ...), AND the density of the body material is the same, will respond the same for both the listener & the player as another clarinet constructed the same way but from different materials. This is gut feel. Why?
A lot of what the player hears is affected by what he feels/perceives. If you're playing a light plastic clarinet with cheap keys, you're brain tells you it's cheap. If you're playing a substantial feeling clarinet with the proper key feel & placement, you're brain will tell you you're playing a quality instrument. Unfortunately, if you think you're playing a cheap instrument chances are good you'll think it sounds like a cheap instrument no matter what it actually sounds like.
So much for the psychology of the player. What does the unbiased listener hear. If the sound is being created in an identical environment, then the output will be the same. That's physics. Ignore chaos. In a macro environment, which a clarinet really is, the output will be the same.
If the density of the body material is different, the internal impedance can change based on the resistance of the body vibrations. Personally I suspect that this is the smallest of the differences but I do believe it can conceivably affect the ultimate sound generated. The real advantage of having consistent density though is giving the weighted feel of a wood clarinet. Ultimately I think this is why the Greenline seems to be successful at sounding like a regular Grenadilla R13. It feels like a wood R13, has the weight, bore, dimensions and keys of an R13.
The knowledge that a Greenline is NOT an R13 (ie: "wood" R13) is probably the largest determining factor in saying it doesn't sound like an R13.
Anecdotal evidence that a non wood clarinet can sound like a wood clarinet: I have been playing a Yamaha SE-V now for about 6 years. I love the feel of this instrument. Prior to that though I played a hard rubber Evette, complete with copper bore insert in the top joint. When people commented on my sound (which they liked) they were amazed when they found out what instrument I was playing. They all thought it was an R13. I'm kind of sorry I sold it but I didn't like the feel of the keys. It did have a nice sound though.
More thoughts? Flames? {: )}
MOO,
Matt
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-04-09 13:41
My whole point with the thread is that if it were the case where plastic clarinets were made with the same bore size, keys, undercutting, etc. as the higher level clarinets, we could actually compare the materials as apples to apples, not apple to mango.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2008-04-09 14:25
David:
I understand. I replied to the direction the thread took, not to the initial questions.
Unfortunately, the only real experiment we can look at is the Greenline. You believe the Greenline sounds different than an R13. Can you qualify how you think it's different? How large is the sample size? How was the "experiment" done & was each instrument properly maintained/setup? The real question is why do you think they are different? Is there something in the way they are designed/machined/produced that makes them sound different? Absent that, then it must be perceived differences.
Believe me, I believe that the body material makes a difference in the sound but only in how it's applied to the design. That same body material, used properly, should create the same sound as the reference instrument.
Thanks,
Matt
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-04-09 15:00
I have 2 stories on this hot topic.
1. The first time I played a Greenline was about 3 years ago. It belongs to a friend of mine that plays in an orchestra in Europe. I had no prior experience or ideas about it. I had or course heard of it and seen it in catalog's, but never talked to anyone about it or thought much of it. It played great! It was one of the best clarinets I had played on. My friend went to a special repair person in her country that she liked to work with.
2. I was working in a music store doing some clarinet set up for the plastic chinese clarinets that had just arrived. I changed all the pads and adjusted pad hight and spring tension. After it was done, I played it and I was also shocked that it sounded so good. Didn't have the best of everything in the way of pitch, but as far as tone (which is basically what this thread is about) it was fine, not far behind any wood clarinet and it was not made with any big CNC machine that does everything with super accuracy..
What do these 2 stories have in common? They had a repair person that made sure it was all working. That is a big factor.
Now I didn't design that plastic clarinet, I just did a pad change and regulation (nothing special), but if material mattered THAT drastically then it wouldn't matter if (insert the name of your favorite famous repair tech here) had done the work... it STILL would have sounded like junk.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-09 15:02
If anyone can seek out a plastic and wooden Howarth S1 clarinets (which should have the same joint diameter, bore shape, tonehole placement and undercutting) and pit them against each other, then do so and post your results.
I've only tried them indivdually (as well as cocobolo and kingwood ones), but never did a direct comparison test with them all as they were never in the same place at the same time.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2008-04-09 15:13
Lots of stuff about materials for pipes, organ and otherwise, available. Pipe organs may have wood, wood and metal, metal, different woods, different metals, all possible combinations, including shapes, etc, pipes, for the same stop designation. . Sir James Jeans discussed these influences, even for clarinet, in the 1930s, and later Bonade and Gibson For clarinets, the frequency spectrum is affected principally in the very high range. But, most of all, as we all can testify, the player, such as a Portnoy, Girko, or a Gigliotti, and many more, can have a profound influence on formants, far more than the material.
richard smith
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2008-04-09 15:20
I'm going to give the sound experiment a go -- see what kind of wave frequencies we can get. I have an idea of how to set it up and, being at a science-tech university can *probably* get the science and musical instruments needed. I'll let you know.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-09 15:29
A Buffet B12 and E11 would be an obvious choice to compare both wood and plastic clarinets made with the same dimensions, or a Yamaha YCL-250 and YCL-450 - but none of these are classed as pro clarinets.
Or an ebonite and wood B&H Imperial 926.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2008-04-09 15:40
Weighing in on just the sound, my thoughts are that the Greenline clarinets are very solid contenders. If you just heard a player on Greenline he/she would sound great. There does seem to be slightly less resonance that effects the overall carrying power in a side by side comparison with wood but not enough to discredit the "technology."
As for waveform testing, I have very little faith in that at all. Look at CD technology were "acousticians" told us that human hearing maxes out at 20k herz so that's what they gave us. Turns out a lot of what we hear depends on frequencies we can't hear above 20k herz and that explains why a generation has grown up with the brittle, flat, stilted sound of the "advanced technology" known as compact disc.
schade
..............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2008-04-09 17:24)
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2008-04-09 15:48
we may be looking at this the wrong way. Playing the clarinet is not a simple input output system, air comes in sound comes out. It is a full feedback system, air comes in sound comes out player hears and adjust.
The "ring" the player may hear, the weight and feel of the instrument are all variables that make the clarinetist adjust to produce whatever sound he/she would like to produce. Grenadilla, Boxwood, rosewood, plastic, greenline, rubber, metal, etc. may sound identical at 1,5,10 or 25 feet, they certainly feel different under the fingers. That in itself makes a difference.
As for my personal experience, my Bb flat is a greenline, I have never heard anyone make comments about its lack of ring in my hands, in fact most people don't even realize it is not made of wood, even when they play it, if I don't tell them it's plastic...
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2008-04-09 16:00
To make such a comparison you'd have to use two different materials that can reliably be machined to identical geometry. I'm no expert but my understanding is that, for example, grenadilla wood and ABS plastic instruments are, and must be, produced using very different techniques: you can't work plastic with the same tools and methods you use for wood. So making two instruments that are identical apart from material is no trivial thing.
And even when using the SAME materials, same tools, and same workers, the resulting instruments vary.
So a valid comparison would require making not one or two but a dozen or two of each instrument, and then comparing the performance of the wood lot as a whole to the plastic lot.
I don't see it as likely anyone's ever going to go to that much trouble.
Even if someone did (unlikely) and was able to convince most people they'd done the test properly and the conclusions are correct (preposterously unlikely), it would only prove that that particular design is, or is not, sensitive to the materials. They'd have to do the whole thing over again, and again, and again to get a more general conclusion.
And really the more interesting question is not "if you made a plastic clarinet dimensionally identical to an R-13, would it play like an R-13?" but "can you make a plastic clarinet that plays as well as an R-13"?
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-04-09 16:40
"A Buffet B12 and E11 would be an obvious choice to compare both wood and plastic clarinets made with the same dimensions, or a Yamaha YCL-250 and YCL-450 - but none of these are classed as pro clarinets."
-------------------------------------------------
But they aren't the same according to the Woodwind Brasswind Catalog specs (previous post).
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Avie
Date: 2008-04-09 17:39
My understanding is that a mold is mfgr'd in order to produce many plastic clarinets where each wooden clarinet would have to be machined individually.
A wood clarinet requires more care than ABS plastics. The Buffet Greenline is composed of a mixture of grenadilla chips and other resins which can be mfgr'd less expensively than a clarinet machined from grenadila wood.
A wood clarinet hasnt proved to be that superior in tone and is a matter of taste and talent. Clarinets were originally made from wood before plastics came into production. It may be time to turn the corner as plastic mixtures become more and more superior. IMO a plastic clarinet could be mfgr'd with what ever tolerances are specified.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-09 17:47
Oh right - I forgot the B12 and YCL-250 have injection moulded joints.
Though the PVC bodied B&H Edgwares and ebonite Imperials were machined from PVC or ebonite bar - the Regent was injection moulded so no good for this experiment.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Sinatra
Date: 2020-01-09 23:16
I am new to playing the clarinet. I grew up playing the drums and I did formal study. I now make my living as a professional singer and a very good living at that so I have a very good ear for music. I have read with great interest the various arguments presented on both sides of the issue as to whether the material a clarinet is made out of makes a difference in the sound. They all sound convincing, but seeing and hearing, are believing.
Ever since I came across these two video clips I now read those same arguments with a sense of amusement. Both videos were made by an obviously highly competent clarinetist. In the first, he plays a plastic and wooden clarinet back to back and asks if you can hear the difference. Most people quickly say the wood was better and the plastic more shrill. Then when I read the comments section I was surprised to see that most of the wood fans were wrong. The clarinet they thought was wood was actually the plastic one.
In the second video he identifies the three clarinets he plays. one is plastic costing $100, the second cost $500 ( unknown material ) and the third is $5000 and made of wood. I'm sure there are diehards out there who will claim all sorts of differences and superior sound for the $5000 wood clarinet, but if you are honest with yourself you would have to admit very little difference if any and certainly not enough to justify $5000. Considering the sound this player gets out of seemingly ANY clarinet and given the fragility and protected status of Grenadilla wood, I think wood clarinets may become a thing of the past.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9ZW01rEKFA&lc=z23vxx4aysakcrexp04t1aokgb5dweamou5n5u2dy1xlbk0h00410
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO2CwMobqnM
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-01-10 00:41
It's the durability and fixability of the better made horn that makes a big difference as well.
But to have an artisan take the time to tune a horn (after tolerances have already been meticulously cared for through the rest of the manufacturing process.......that is......costly process) costs money.
Also, I'd say of ABS plastic that the dimensions will change dramatically with temperature changes (the Selmer Signets we used for outdoor gigs got shorter and long keys would bind to the point where they would not work). So you do require a more inert material to maintain critical tuning issues.
Buffet's Greenlines seem to fit the bill pretty well and we will see the extinction of African Blackwood trees at some point......so, agreed wood will become out dated.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2020-01-10 03:17
I have examples of the B & H Imperial in wood and rubber and the Emperor in wood, rubber and plastic. The plastic Emperor shows the widest tuning variations with temperature, and overall I think the rubber versions sound best. All according to my untutored ear.
Tony F.
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Author: Sinatra
Date: 2020-01-14 02:27
Indeed, other woods are used. However, the wood devotees seem to maintain an undying preference for grenadilla wood specifically, claiming all sorts of magical properties for it. My main purpose in posting my reply, was to ask why does a clarinet need to be made out of wood at all given the sound the young man in the video clips I posted seems to be able to get out of virtually any instrument he plays?
There have been three replies to my post thus far and no one has yet addressed that issue. Perhaps they haven't listened to the video clips or if they have they prefer not to admit or acknowledge what their ears have heard.
A number of people on this board have said very positive things about the rubber clarinets made by Ridenour and the consistency available from instrument to instrument. So it seems that wood is not mandatory to achieve a good sound.
I think that since wood is what clarinets were first made of, traditionalists stand by wood. Having many musicians who work for me tell me of the care wooden clarinets need as well as weather concerns when playing outdoors, it seems that if a good sound can be had from instruments made of a more stable and inert material that avenue should be explored.
Since Wood clarinets carry the highest price, I think the main reason they might produce a better sound ( if they indeed do ) is because the manufacturers build them to stricter tolerances and attach only the finest hardware. Whereas student level resin clarinets get less attention to detail in the manufacturing process and less expensive hardware.
Somewhat of an exception to this rule is Yamaha. Their YCL 255 Student clarinet is made of resin, but has essentially professional keywork as noted by Professional reed player Simon Bates of the U.K. This is probably why it costs as much as it does. It carries a suggested retail of close to $1,000, but realistically, they can be had new from places like Sam Ash for around $650. Now I realize that is not a lot of money compared to the cost of a professional clarinet, but it is on the high side for one made of resin. And since it is made of resin, the actual body material represents a small portion of the cost. The money is spent on better hardware and pads which is obviously why it sounds as good ad it does.
Even Buffett seems to know this. Their Greenline Clarinet is not made of wood. The term wood in an engineering sense as its pertains to an instrument, refers to material taken from a tree and then turned into an instrument while still retaining the properties of wood. For that to occur, the structure of the wood itself must remain unchanged.
Buffet sweeps sawdust from the manufacture of their actual wood clarinets off the floor, mixes it with resin and then calls it a "green" wooden clarinet. It certainly has wood by products in it, but ground up wood / sawdust mixed with resin does not a wood clarinet make and that cylinder will not have the same properties as one made of actual wood.
Yet, people seem to be in love with the greenline and claim they have a good sound. No doubt they do, but structurally, they are more of a resin clarinet than they are a wooden one and I'm sure that Buffet supplies it with good hardware, hence a better sound.
If you haven't heard the man in the videos I posted, they are worth a listen and render a lot of the points made on this thread regarding the effect of material on sound, moot.
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