 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: BandieSF
Date: 2008-04-06 21:48
After a long nightmare of trying to address my intonation issues, I've come to suspect that my middle G tonehole isn't venting enough and the pad is too low, since the rest of the instrument is okay.
A few questions regarding this:
1) What part of the key is changed to raise that pad and improve the venting?
2) Is it best to leave the adjusting to a pro or is it safe to do myself?
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Current set-up:
Classical:
Strength 4 1/4 Legere Signature Series
Vandoren M13 Lyre
Jazz:
Strength 3 3/4 Legere Quebec
Pomarico Jazz*
Clarinets:
Buffet E11 Student Model
Buffet R13 Greenline
<http://operationhighschool.blogspot.com
Post Edited (2008-04-06 22:07)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-06 23:02
It's easy enough for anyone (with the aptitude) to do provided the silencing material is thick enough - if it's really thin (1mm or less), you'll have to bend the key to get more venting as thinning it will increase the mechanical noise every time you release the rings. But if this is the case, leave it to a tech to do as there's a real risk of damage if you don't know where or how to bend things.
Buffet use a synthetic cork (a high density foam) as a silencing material on their French-built clarinets, and this is easy to adjust using a sharp razor blade (a fresh one that's never been used), but not easy to adjust by sanding. If it's the E11 (which is German), it'll have white felt on the lower joint ring keys which is only around 1mm thick.
While the lower joint ring keys are still in situ, hold then closed and slice the silencing material on the linkage with a sharp razor blade. And make sure you slice it so it's nice and flat - put the blade against the side of the silencing material so the cutting edge is in full contact with it, and slice it parallel with the underside of the linkage (or key foot).
Keep the blade moving (as if you're slicing bread) instead of pushing the blade as you can tear the silencing material off the key if you use force.
How much venting has the lower joint ring key pad got? You should aim for between 2.5mm min. to 3mm max. when measuring at the front of the pad so the lower register C and E aren't stuffy.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2008-04-06 23:08)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-04-07 02:06
Hmm.
There are 4 Gs, so which is the "middle" G?
Chris seems to have assumed it is the 3rd G.
I would have assumed it was the 2nd G, "Throat G" (all fingers off).
The venting here depends a lot on the thickness of the pad (both felt and cardboard, or cork), the type of pad, and how it is installed.
Changing pad thickness and venting can have repercussions in possibly hitting the throat A key.
For me, adjusting this venting may involve:
- replacing the pad
- altering the geometry of the parts of the key
- altering the material &/or thickness of the two corks involved
- dealing with the repercussions for the thumb ring, say altering its geometry
- even modifying the throat A key.
- cleaning the tone hole
- modifying the tone hole
etc
I consider that with such interacting parameters, some of which are best done with specialised tols, this job is best left to a technician.
Post Edited (2008-04-07 02:09)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-07 06:25
I assumed 'middle G tonehole' meant the tonehole in the middle of the clarinet that G (and lower register C) sounds from, which is the lower joint ring key vent tonehole.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-04-07 08:51
I thought middle G is the same one that Gordon thought because it's the closest to middle B and that's where the "middle" came from or it's the middle G on the clarinet, not the lowest G and the high (clarion) G (assuming altisimo is not considered). But BandieSF is the best to clarify that.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-04-07 10:06
I thought that "middle G" would be the middle one of the THREE Gs before the player found out that there is a fourth G. :-)
It shows what thinking does. :-)
Post Edited (2008-04-07 10:07)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-07 10:14
This is where naming toneholes on flutes, oboes, bassoons and saxes is so much easier! Clarinets are too much of a grey area if naming one non-specific note and if you happen to read laterally, confusion sets in.
If it is the throat G that's affected, the G tonehole can be enlarged without causing too much trouble tuning-wise to other notes as it's closed while the thumb or LH finger 1 is held down - so it's closed for pretty much every note on the clarinet except the throat notes from 'open G' (though you will probably be keeping some RH fingers down to add tonal substance to the throat notes) up to throat Bb (or even B natural and C if you use the trill keys to save going over the break). Even if you've gone overboard increasing the tonehole diameter and the G is way too sharp, it can always be filled in to bring it down to pitch.
But have the G vent pad changed for a flat cork one and increase the venting (by getting more action/opening on the ring keys) first to see if this helps free up the throat G.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2008-04-07 10:20)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-04-07 11:39
I thought it was a joke at first.....open G, all fingers off......
Bob Draznik
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-04-07 14:29
I had the same question last year...
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=255116&t=255116
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Author: BandieSF
Date: 2008-04-07 22:41
To clarify, I meant the throat G (open). Perhaps I should have said "open G" rather than "middle G"...
Thanks for that link, skygardener. I asked my lesson teacher about it at my last lesson and he said he had had similar issues with his R13. I don't know if they adjusted the pad height, but he did get the pad changed to a cork one. I might be able to have that done with mine.
-----
Current set-up:
Classical:
Strength 4 1/4 Legere Signature Series
Vandoren M13 Lyre
Jazz:
Strength 3 3/4 Legere Quebec
Pomarico Jazz*
Clarinets:
Buffet E11 Student Model
Buffet R13 Greenline
<http://operationhighschool.blogspot.com
Post Edited (2008-04-07 22:57)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-07 22:58
Scroll down a bit...
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2008-04-07 22:59)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-07 22:58
Now, is that on your R13 or E11?
Either way, it'll probably be dealt with in the same manner.
But do at least seek advice from a clarinet specialist in person if you're unsure about anything.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BandieSF
Date: 2008-04-08 01:34
It's the R13. I did look at the same pad on the E11 and saw it had even less clearance and began to wonder why I hadn't seen the same problem only to remember that instrument was pitched at A442 instead of A440 like the R13.
-----
Current set-up:
Classical:
Strength 4 1/4 Legere Signature Series
Vandoren M13 Lyre
Jazz:
Strength 3 3/4 Legere Quebec
Pomarico Jazz*
Clarinets:
Buffet E11 Student Model
Buffet R13 Greenline
<http://operationhighschool.blogspot.com
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-04-08 13:45
I guess I still don't get it: Which padded open G hole are we addressing?
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-08 13:47
ooo|ooo
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-04-08 21:04
Thanks much Chris, I was thinking maybe it was one of those on the bottom section that are open for open G....
Bob Draznik
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-04-08 21:10
......or even the closed register open G.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2008-04-08 21:13
BobD wrote:
>"Which padded open G hole are we addressing?<
The key cup/pad and the tone hole that is located under the throat "A"
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2008-04-09 05:56
a clarinet player in my community band has one of these "defective R13's" where everywhere else would play relatively ok, but throat G would always be 20-30 cents flat. It wasn't him as both myself and the first clarinet player gave it a try.
We tried checking pad heights and leaks and such, but it ultimately came down to a really short barrel. the intonation is better, but it's still a little screwy. at least he fits in with the section much more then when he didn't have the shorter barrel.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-04-09 13:27
Post deleted. It was rubbish. (A senior moment.)
Post Edited (2008-04-10 01:17)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-09 15:35
What fingerings are you using (apart from throat notes) where both the left thumb and LH finger 1 are both off?
If your left thumb is on the thumb tube, the LH 1 ring key vent (throat G tonehole) is closed. Though if you're using fingerings where the left thumb and LH 1 are both off at the same time, then the throat G tonehole is open.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: DrH2O
Date: 2008-04-09 22:08
This post was apparently about open G being flat. What's the remedy if open G and to a lesser extent throat A are both sharp but the other notes above and below are basically in tune? Is the pad opening too much or the tone hole too large? I have this problem on my E&S even with the 66mm barrel I just bought.
Anne
Clarinet addict
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-09 22:31
Shouldn't an E&S use a 67mm barrel?
But if throat A and G are sharp, you can fill in the toneholes to bring the pitch down.
I did this on my R13 Eb because the throat notes were still sharp even with the longest barrel. I melted hard wax onto the sides of the toneholes to narrow the diameter of them which brought the pitch down.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-04-10 01:18
Chris wrote: "What fingerings are you using (apart from throat notes) where both the left thumb and LH finger 1 are both off? "
Sorry Chris. Thanks for pointing out my 'senior moment'. I have deleted my garbage post.
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Author: DrH2O
Date: 2008-04-10 11:59
Using wax sounds like a pretty safe thing to try, easy to remove with no permanent damage if it doesn't work.
The stock barrel that came with the E&S was 65mm. With the new 66mm and some tweaking of other tone holes by my tech the intonation is pretty good except for these last 2 notes.
Thanks,
Anne
Clarinet addict
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