 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bonzo-b
Date: 2008-03-27 21:03
Hi everyone, my names Paul, from nr oxford, UK
i have a yamaha ycl 26 II and today received this through the post from a friend on SOTW
Its a boosey and hawkes serial number 35674 which dates it to the 1940`s ( i think ), but what model ??
ps.. the bell looks plastic because it was wet... Doh !!
Hope you all can help... thanks .. Paul
Boosey and Hawkes ( 1940`s Imperial ? serial # 35674)
Conn New Wonder Tenor Sax (1920 )
King Cleveland 615 Tenor Sax
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2008-03-28 02:24
one thing for sure, it's a clarinet.
shared post keys on the throat keys
not sure what model it is though
where's Chris "Super glue man" P .. he knows about B&Hs
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-03-28 09:19
Does the bell have any writing or any logos on it? To me, the bell looks more like a replacement (from a French clarinet maybe?), though as I can't see it in all that much detail it could be a B&H bell with the metal bell ring (most B&H clarinets didn't have the metal bell ring).
It's definitely an earlier model B&H going by the keywork and trill guide position (and from the '40s), probably an Edgware as it has nickel plated keys. Where the plating has worn through on the keys, is the metal underneath a dull yellow colour or grey (like lead)?
Where are the serial numbers stamped? On the front by the logo, or stamped at the top end of both main body joints?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2008-03-28 09:28)
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Author: bonzo-b
Date: 2008-03-28 12:07
Hi Chris, the bell has the Boosey and Hawkes logo, it looks exactly the same as the one on the top section.
The serial numbers are at the back , bottom end of both main sections...
I thought the keywork was silver plate, but i`ve just cleaned a small section and hey presto no black residue, so as you say nickel...
the metal underneath the plating is dull grey.
Its been played a lot though, 50% of the keys are missing some of the plating.
Also on a side note it arrived in a very old looking Croc/snake skin effect case , inside aside from the clarinet are 2 plastic sponge holders with the words selmer hummidicase
Paul
Boosey and Hawkes ( 1940`s Imperial ? serial # 35674)
Conn New Wonder Tenor Sax (1920 )
King Cleveland 615 Tenor Sax
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-03-28 12:44
Hi Paul,
If the base metal of the keys is grey (like lead, pewter or zinc in colour) and have a row of raised numbers on the undersides (the numbers correspond to each key so replacement parts could be ordered), then the keys are die-cast in mazak which is a soft alloy and can't be repaired all that easily if any keys get broken.
So don't attempt to bend any keys as they can break easily, and you won't find anyone willing to repair them. As the metal is soft, you can easily push a sharp steel point into it and leave a deep indent, as well as being able to burnish it smooth again.
Nickel silver is a pale yellow colour when poished, lighter in colour than brass and can be hard soldered if broken. The bell ring on this clarinet is unplated nickel silver, so check this against any worn areas of keywork to see if it's the same or different to the base metal.
So if it does have mazak keys, this clarinet is more like the early wooden Regents or B&H "77" which had wooden bodies with mazak keys. Check the underside of the key touches (the left hand low E/B, F#/C# and F/C levers) for a row of numbers to be certain - I assume they would have numbered the keys on clarinets of this age.
Unfortunately due to the mazak keywork, a lot of repairers and retailers don't want to touch them as it's near impossible to get replacement parts for them, and some of the keys from later (post-1960) B&H may not fit.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2008-03-28 13:15)
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Author: bonzo-b
Date: 2008-03-28 14:19
Hi chris,
curiouser and curiouser....
the lower E, F# and F keys don`t appear to have any numbers on them ( i haven`t stripped the clarinet right down yet ), but all 3 have 3 marks like this /// underneath ..... ?
The bell ring appears to be slightly yellower than the worn keys so they are probably the mazak ( typical !! if its gonna be a bitch i`ll get it )
I thought 77`s had bakelite bells ?
paul
Boosey and Hawkes ( 1940`s Imperial ? serial # 35674)
Conn New Wonder Tenor Sax (1920 )
King Cleveland 615 Tenor Sax
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-03-28 15:29
The "77" came in during the '50s and had an ebonite bell and probably an ebonite barrel as well (which turned greeny-yellowy-brown), thought the early Regent of this time was all wood and didn't have a bell ring, but both of them had mazak keys.
The bakelite and plastic Regents from the '60s onwards (from what I've seen in the UK) had nickel silver keys, and most B&H clarinets from the Edgware and upwards could be in wood, plastic or ebonite.
Polish the worn areas of the keys to see if it looks like aluminium when shiny, and compare that with the polished bell ring.
But provided you don't have to bend the keys too much or subject them to any undue stress, you should be fine. But just proceed with caution if you do need to bend anything. But there's an aluminium and mazak repair kit called 'Technoweld' which is worth a try should the worst happen.
http://www.technoweld-fusion.com/
http://www.hindleys.com/technoweld/index.htm
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: bonzo-b
Date: 2008-03-28 21:06
Thanks mate , i always take advice from people who are more knowledgable than me ..
This is my first renovation project.. so "softly softly" as they say.
I`ve a pad set and spring set, left over from my emperor ( years ago )
I`m just a little worried the clarinet might have dried out some after all those years in a loft... would you use teak oil or such to rejuvinate it ??
Paul
Boosey and Hawkes ( 1940`s Imperial ? serial # 35674)
Conn New Wonder Tenor Sax (1920 )
King Cleveland 615 Tenor Sax
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-03-28 23:45
Doctor's Products (L. Omar Henderson) does all manner of natural oils and greases specifically for clarinets.
It'll probably absorb a lot of oil if it's really dry. So once all the keys are off, give the bore a good oiling (use a wooden dowel with a strip of cotton wrapped round it to apply oil with, and a cotton bud for toneholes, but not on the tops as it'll make pads sticky - degrease the tonehole bedplace crowns thoroughly with meths before padding) and check the rate and evenness of absorption in the bore every few hours and apply more to the dry areas.
End grain (mainly bottoms of sockets and toneholes) will absorb oil very quickly. Once well oiled, seal the end grain in sockets with beeswax (applying it with a heated piece of steel). After it's cooled, use an old reed with the end cut thick and square to scrape the excess and even out the wax coating in the sockets with.
The outside can be cleaned up with a little drop of oil wiped on the entire surface, and stropping the joints with cotton torn into strips until they shine. Degrease the cork slots in the tenons well before glueing on new tenon corks.
We still use raw linseed oil on Howarth instruments.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-24 18:17
Hi Paul,
Could you post photos of the worn keywork plating and with a comparison between the colour of the bell ring and worn areas? Just to see if the keys are mazak or not.
I've never seen this circular B&H logo before, only the other types common to the UK which varied in style over time and with the various model designations.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: bonzo-b
Date: 2008-04-24 19:49
Hi Chris... sorry about this, but i`m on a mission to find out about this clarinet... hope this helps.. the whole of the G# key`s contact area is missing the nickel plate
i thought the Boosey and Hawkes logo was pretty standard with only a few minor variations, this one is totally different.. curioser and curiouser
its funny but the logo seemed more "photogenic" when the whole damned thing was dirty..
Who knows it might be worth a mint.... a bloody spearmint knowing my luck !!
thanx.. Paul
Boosey and Hawkes ( 1940`s Imperial ? serial # 35674)
Conn New Wonder Tenor Sax (1920 )
King Cleveland 615 Tenor Sax
Post Edited (2008-04-24 19:53)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-24 23:35
You have nickel silver keywork there going by the colour (and the pillars have lost their plating too), not the dreaded mazak as I previously thought as mazak will be much darker and greyer in colour (like tin, zinc, pewter or lead, and about as soft), so this clarinet is still worth insuring as a Buffet E11 or Yamaha YCL-450 for replacement purposes. So worth doing the work on to get it all playing nicely.
As to the model, it's the same instrument as an Edgware (as well as the Series 2-20, Marlborough, and any other wooden bodied B&H-built clarinets with nickel plated keys which were all essentially one and the same, but stamped with different names and also makes).
To put it in the picture, the basic lineup of B&H clarinet models in the mid-'70s to mid-'80s were:
Regent (injection moulded plastic body, nickel plated keys)
Edgware (wooden body, inset ebonite tonehole chimneys, nickel plated keys)
Emperor (wood, inset ebonite tonehole chimneys, silver plated keys)
Imperial 926 (wood, inset ebonite tonehole chimneys, smooth socket rings, heavy barrel and silver plated keys)
Symphony 1010 (wood, large bore, integral wooden tonehole chimneys, smooth socket rings, heavy barrel, silver plated keys, light bell with different length bells on Bb and A clarinets, rod screw mounted keys throughout with hollow key barrels on all keys, Acton vent and some slightly different key shapes and linkages).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: bonzo-b
Date: 2008-04-25 07:25
Hi Chris... thanks for that mate... i take it from the way you spell colour properly you`re British ( huge assumption there ! ! )
do you know of any decent technicians in the Oxford area.. i`m about 15 miles from there ??
Paul
Boosey and Hawkes ( 1940`s Imperial ? serial # 35674)
Conn New Wonder Tenor Sax (1920 )
King Cleveland 615 Tenor Sax
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Author: Mike Clarinet
Date: 2008-04-25 07:41
Hi Bonzo,
Get yourself to Dawkes Windcraft in Maidenhead. They may be able to help you, and are fairly close to you. Normally, for a consult, you can just drop in, but if you need more than just running repairs doing, there is normally quite a wait. It is better if you can get there during the week as weekends tend to get busy.
Disclaimer - no association with Dawkes except as a satisfied customer.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-25 10:03
"i take it from the way you spell colour properly you`re British ( huge assumption there ! ! )"
Yep, I'm down in W.Sussex in a famous seaside resort with Butlins. I think it's the AOL thingy that confuses the system, making me appear to be in the US.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2008-04-25 14:53
An old colleague of mine had a B&H clarinet with similar logo and bell to yours. It was bought new from B&H Regent Street in 1946 and on the receipt was listed as an Imperial (costing over £70 which was a lot of money in 1946).
It had a serial number of 36xxx and from memory of working on it quite some years ago it had an angled thumbrest set into the body and the LH f#/c# and e/b keys were nicely sculpted as in pre-war instruments.
I bought a pair of Imperials from widow of Halle Orchestra player in late 1950's with serial nos 36991/37254 these also bought directly from edgware in 1946. In the few months between the 36xxx clarinets and mine being made there had been several style changes -
- the typical B&H ringless Bell
- a "straight across" thumbrest screwed on top of the body
- LH levers much more like typical post war B&H style
Both models however had all keys mounted on rods just like 1010 there being no point screws whatsoever.
I had another customer bring in her Imperial some years ago and it was also from 1946.
It had same circular logo on body as yours but had been equipped with flat rings and a ringless bell by Geoffrey Acton of B&H when he presented it as a wedding gift to my customer many years earlier.
My theory is that the first instruments were prototype Imperials just as production restarted after the war.
So check the details of thumbrest and rods vs point screws etc - you may possibly have an early Imperial (and those first models were by far the best made).
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-25 16:04
Do you know what the bore size is on this clarinet? Take the measurement from the middle tenon with vernier calipers.
I think most early B&H clarinets had large bores of the 1010 type (if not larger still) - a clarinet player in the RN volunteer band has an old ebonite Imperial, and the bore on this is well over 15.2mm - probably around 15.4mm. Later B&H clarinets from the Regent through to the 926 had 14.9mm bores, though only the 1010 retained the large 15.2mm bore in B&H's lineup until their production ceased.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: bonzo-b
Date: 2008-04-25 16:29
Bloody Hell Chris.. what a coincidence... i measured the bore last night with my set of rough n ready calipers and it come out at over 15mm and was doubting whether it was correct... if i can find someone with some better ones i`ll get a more accurate reading ... Paul
Boosey and Hawkes ( 1940`s Imperial ? serial # 35674)
Conn New Wonder Tenor Sax (1920 )
King Cleveland 615 Tenor Sax
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-25 16:43
Another thing I noticed is the pillars don't appear to be plated at all.
I thought the plating may have worn on the pillars as well (as pillars don't usually get a decent coat of plating if plated in bulk by barrel plating as opposed to being removed and plated along with the rest of the keywork), but they're dull right down to the wood, and it's impossible to wear plating away against the joint surface as it's out of normal reach.
Usually the plating on the heads wear over time (and the heads can wear out too), but the stems retain the plating longer as they're less likely to be touched during playing or assembly.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: bonzo-b
Date: 2008-04-25 16:53
That may be because in my rush to actually hear the Clarinet i didn`t take the time to clean any of the pillars.. so they may still be coated in a layer of 35 year old dust n crap !!.... oooops... sorry... ( message to self... do it ALL properly next time !! ) ..Paul
Boosey and Hawkes ( 1940`s Imperial ? serial # 35674)
Conn New Wonder Tenor Sax (1920 )
King Cleveland 615 Tenor Sax
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2008-04-25 17:01
The bore of a 926 is usually 15.0 mm I have just measured a 1979 Imperial at 15.1 at both ends of top joint and a 1953 Emperor (really an Imperial except in name in those days) at a fraction under 15.0
You have to be careful when mic-ing since most likely place wear and/or swelling is right under the tenons and you need to go further in to be more accurate.
For a repairer have a look at the NAMIR website.
Ian White lives close to Oxford and is a good repairer
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-25 17:17
Norman, do you have a copy of the list of B&H serial numbers that was doing the rounds back in the mid to late '80s?
It was on a single A4 sheet and had the listings from the 1800s up to 1984 on all woodwind and brass instruments produced in the UK by Boosey&Co, Hawkes&Son, Besson, Rudall Carte, B&H, etc.
I lost mine years back, and the only other copy was pinned to a noticeboard in the woodwind department at Merton Tech while it was still in South Wimbledon, though no doubt it may have gone by the wayside since the Rutlish Rd. annexe closed.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2008-04-25 18:32)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2008-04-25 17:51
Chris, I have a copy of serial numbers very similar if not the same as one you mention which I obtained during one of NAMIR's regular meetings with management at Edgware. It's not complete for all years and some interpolation is needed in places but its best I have been able to find.
B&H apparently lost many records in a fire many years ago so can't fill all the gaps.
I can photo copy if you give me contact details
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-25 18:51
I know it may take time to do, but is there any chance of listing the B&H woodwind serial numbers on here for all of us that are interested? It'll be good to see how different this list is to the various online ones.
Steve Sklar's serial number list is the only one that resembles the truth:
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/clsnBH.htm
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: bonzo-b
Date: 2008-04-25 19:24
It would have been nice to narrow this clarinet down to a specific year, but obviously clarinets were not high on the list of priorities during the war
anyway, heres a pic of the angled thumb rest:-
my only way of measuring the bore was to use a length of copper water pipe which i used my "good" calipers on... the OD measures 15.05mm and was a tight enough fit that i didn`t want to force it down the bore ( both sections)... this is all subject to the moisture content of the wood though isn`t it.. Paul
Boosey and Hawkes ( 1940`s Imperial ? serial # 35674)
Conn New Wonder Tenor Sax (1920 )
King Cleveland 615 Tenor Sax
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2008-04-25 19:51
Chris, have checked the website you gave and the ser. nos. are virtually identical to the list I obtained from Edgware factory (in July 1996 I see I pencilled on my copy) even showing the same gaps and jumps between some of the years. So I suspect they used same source as I did.
Note - website says numbers are for clarinets but for accuracy should state that they apply to all reed woodwind produced by B&H up to 1950 and then to flutes as well from 1951.
Paul, that thumbrest is exactly like one on the older Imperial of 1946 so I think the evidence points very strongly to that model.
I don't know exactly when Emperor model was introduced, earliest one I have seen (and own) ser no 83xxx dates from 1953 and was an exact copy of Imperial even down to all rodded keywork but with nickel rather than silver plate so I'm pretty sure they were introduced well after 1946.
I think the prototype Imperials were also nickel plate.
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Author: bonzo-b
Date: 2008-04-25 20:08
Thanks Norman, now do i call it an Imperial and get shot down by someone officionado from god knows where or do i leave the question open ??
Bloody hell, if thats the most difficult question in my life... i ought to get one ( a life that is !! )
Thanks to everyone for your help, ideas etc ... Paul
Boosey and Hawkes ( 1940`s Imperial ? serial # 35674)
Conn New Wonder Tenor Sax (1920 )
King Cleveland 615 Tenor Sax
Post Edited (2008-04-25 20:09)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-25 20:29
Apart from the model name, keywork plating, different socket rings, barrel shape and cases, what were the main differences between the later (post 1965) wooden smaller bore B&H clarinets (being the Edgware, Emperor and Imperial 926)?
They all had metal tenon caps, the same keywork mounted in the same manner (rods and pivot screws), bell taper, bore diameter and inset tonehole chimneys, either phosphor bronze or blue steel springs and either skin or leather pads, though the differences I can see on these later instruments were at first glance mainly cosmetic.
Is there a lot more to them than meets the eye? It's not that I'm saying they're bad or anything like that (as I've owned a few of them myself), just want to know what significant differences there were that set them all apart from one another.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: bonzo-b
Date: 2008-04-25 20:54
Its funny Chris i came back to clarinet by accident... i used the saving up for, buying of and learning to play sax as my motivation to quit smoking and had put an advert in my local newsagents for a "project" horn as i love the mechanics as well as the playing of them... i got a phone call and went a few miles to look at an invicta soprano ( i think ); anyway i said it wasn`t for me and headed for the door and this guy says " i`ve got a clarinet, do you fancy a look ?" ... ok... picked it up and played bottom to top straight over the break in semitones... christ !! ... how much?.. £30... it was a yamaha ycl26.. i didn`t even have the nerve to haggle...
so here i am 30 years on trying to relearn old skills my body remembers but i only sort of remember, if you know what i mean.
But still wanted an Emperor like i had back then.. so when the chance of this "project B+H " came up on SOTW i was hooked.... and with all this digging am even more hooked... Paul
Boosey and Hawkes ( 1940`s Imperial ? serial # 35674)
Conn New Wonder Tenor Sax (1920 )
King Cleveland 615 Tenor Sax
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-25 21:29
I used to borrow a friend's dad's old Edgware to have a go on when I was in the 1st year at school, and after taking up sax when I was 12 I thought it best at some point to at least get some clarinet skills in as well (as the sax players in a Style Council track all switched to clarinet, so I thought they both went hand in hand - and my sax teacher used to keep a clarinet on his stand as well).
But the bug really bit when I was visiting the US back in 1986 during the summer holidays (when 'Papa Don't Preach' was shown there on MTV all the flippin' time!) and I happened across a B&H Series 2-20 in a huge car boot sale, and the stallholder only wanted $7.75 for it. Done!
'Course it didn't play as it was completely knackered, but I bought a set of pads, sheet cork and liquid shellac and got it working to a degree (as well as loads of elastic bands acting as springs as the phosphor bronze springs snapped with the merest touch!).
On return to the UK I began to teach myself to play, and a year later started working in a local music shop learning woodwind repairs. So this clarinet was a good one tolearn repadding, regulating, replacing tenon caps, bushing toneholes, removing broken springs, etc.
But this clarinet got me through my college audition where I played it during the first year I was there and I had bought a pair of Selmer Centered Tones in the meantime which I began to restore. The B&H clarinet saw me up to taking my first AB exam on clarinet but the throat G# snapped immediately before the exam and I used another student's Artley, though I still managed to get Grade 4 with distinction.
But it got nicked during my 2nd year from the locker area, but it was insured for the cost of a Noblet Artist (which was £555 back in 1989) so it wasn't a loss.
The clarinets I really wanted at the time were Leblanc LL full Boehms (just to be different - I liked the chunky keywork and inline trills, still do), though I now have an LL full Boehm Bb though play mostly Selmer Series 9 full Boehms, but I still have a soft spot for B&Hs and even bought a 1010 which I didn't have for all that long as that got snapped up from me during a show when one of the other reed players made me an offer there and then for it after playing it for the matinee and evening performance.
At the moment I've still got a couple of B&H clarinets - a bakelite Regent in need of a repad (which came with the plastic Yamaha I use for outdoor playing), and an early '60s Marlborough which is all in pieces waiting to have some plating and then a rebuild (the Marlborough is essentially the same as a Series 2-20, or like an Edgware but with a metal bell ring).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2008-04-25 22:22
As I understand it the edgware and emperor were fundamentally based exactly on the 926 and were just cheaper versions of it up to the time when first the edgware and later the Emperor were made in plastic.
Many of the differences were purely cosmetic as you noted above, some of them were more substantial.
The Imperial 926 was always set as the professional model and so built by the craftmen (for as long as any remained) rather than the assembly staff.
The 926 keywork was properly fitted and adjusted on point screws (after the rods were discontinued) where the cheaper models used the parallel and less precise pivot screws.
The best looking wood was reserved for the professional models (arguably best looking does not always mean best sounding!)
At least in the earlier days the professional models were checked and tuned e.g. by Manton-Myat or Acton. By contrast the cheaper ones were merely blown to see that they played (One of my army day colleagues in early 60's went in to Edgware part time to do this 'blowing')
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-26 02:12
Though it is remarkable that even the 1010s (and others below) had their pads glued into the pad cups with Evo-Stik rather than shellac which meant they were fine so long as they seated to begin with, as any kind of pad adjustment was impossible after the Evo-Stick had gone off without having to remove the pad and put it back or replace it using shellac.
My 1010 (from around 1983) had Gordon Beeson pads that were all installed with Evo-Stick, as did a mid-'60s plastic Emperor with Hermes leather pads in which the paper disc stuck to the back of the pad would come away from the leather and the pads would either wobble around or drop out.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: bonzo-b
Date: 2008-04-29 20:13
Hi guys... back again... the plot thickens
i took the clarinet to a local tech... the first 3 things he says to me are
1. its a boosey and hawkes
2. i`ve never seen that B+H Logo before
3. Its very thin are you sure its a Bb?
Here we go again !!!
I established that the bore is 15mm give or take a gnats, and play tested against my Tenor sax and it IS a Bb
Outside diameters of the body are:-
Just below Barrel tenon on top section 29mm
just above middle tenon on top section 28mm
flares to 31mm just above bell tenon
overall length EXCLUDING mpc approx 60.2 cm
are these normal dimensions for a Bb clarinet ??
Paul.. Sorry !!!
Boosey and Hawkes ( 1940`s Imperial ? serial # 35674)
Conn New Wonder Tenor Sax (1920 )
King Cleveland 615 Tenor Sax
Post Edited (2008-04-29 20:14)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2008-04-29 22:53
Paul,
It's a smidgen thinner than typically found (down by about 1mm on each diameter I would say) but clarinet bodies have varied over the years so would not consider it extreme.
I'm not surprised he hasn't seen the logo before, I suspect it was only used for a very short period. I have only ever seen 3 and they were all Imperials made within months of each other in 1946.
Norman
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Author: bonzo-b
Date: 2008-04-29 23:39
Thanks Norman... i feel like i`m flogging a dead horse with this one.. thanks for your help... i`m gonna call it an imperial and sod the rest of `em !!
its up to them to prove me wrong !!!
Paul
ps are you anywhere near Oxford ? i`d be more than happy to bring it round for you to look at. ...P
Boosey and Hawkes ( 1940`s Imperial ? serial # 35674)
Conn New Wonder Tenor Sax (1920 )
King Cleveland 615 Tenor Sax
Post Edited (2008-04-29 23:43)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-30 08:26
Here's a load of measurements taken from a B&H Marlborough (which is essentially an Edgware):
Top joint:
Total length: 224.5mm
Maximum outer diameter of flare: 30.5mm
Minimum outer diameter: 28.4mm
Bore: (top) 15.2mm (middle) 14.9mm
Bottom Joint:
Total length: 253.5mm
Maximum outer diameter of flare: 32.8mm
Minimum outer diameter: 28.4mm
Bore: (top) 14.9mm (bell tenon maximum) 22.1mm
Bell:
Length: 110mm
Maximum outer diameter (metal bell ring): 76.3mm
Minimum outer diameter: 33.5mm
Bore: (top) approx. 21.4mm (bottom) 54.4mm
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2008-04-30 11:26)
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Author: bonzo-b
Date: 2008-04-30 13:19
Ok..Thanks Chris... remeasured mine ( not absolutely difinitive due to my poor calipers) as follows:-
Top joint:
Total length: 228.5mm
Maximum outer diameter of flare(top): 29.25mm
Minimum outer diameter(bottom): 28.0mm
Bore: (top) 15.5mm (middle) 15.0mm
Bottom Joint:
Total length: 255.5mm
Minimum outer diameter(top): 28.5mm
Maximum outer diameter of flare(bottom): 31.5mm
Bore: (top) 15.0mm (bell tenon maximum) 22.0mm
Bell:
Length: 111mm
Maximum outer diameter (metal bell ring): 76.0mm
Minimum outer diameter: 31.5mm
Bore: (top) approx. 22.0mm (bottom) 55.5mm
Strange, nothing stands out as being wildly different..the extra length on the top joint could be inside the tenon. In fact shrinkage over the years or any other number of factors could account for the small differences... i think i`ll put this one to bed now... Thanks Paul
Boosey and Hawkes ( 1940`s Imperial ? serial # 35674)
Conn New Wonder Tenor Sax (1920 )
King Cleveland 615 Tenor Sax
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-30 14:23
Your one may be built to 438Hz (and is of the older design so could have been made from a batch of joints that was turned to length a few years earlier before the pitch was raised to 440Hz in 1939), hence the slightly longer joints when compared to mine which is later (from the early '60s) and built to 440Hz.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: bonzo-b
Date: 2008-04-30 14:44
Yeah i thought it possible that the actual body may have been made pre-war and assembled and the serial # added during the war... most craftsmen would have been working on things more important than musical instruments.. it might also explain the somewhat basic logo too...
Boosey and Hawkes ( 1940`s Imperial ? serial # 35674)
Conn New Wonder Tenor Sax (1920 )
King Cleveland 615 Tenor Sax
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-30 16:48
"it might also explain the somewhat basic logo too..."
I see you avoided using the word 'austere' there!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2008-04-30 18:29
Paul, I'm in Winchester, if you ever visit Hampshire I would be very happy to look over the Imperial for you. Norman
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-30 18:51
A bit different to Wigan, then again, Bognor isn't in the US!
I was only in Winchester yesterday afternoon for a uniform fitting.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: bonzo-b
Date: 2008-04-30 19:20
Hi Norman... not that far away... one of these sunny Sundays i`ll fire up my trusty steed ( motorcycle ) and head your way.. Paul
Boosey and Hawkes ( 1940`s Imperial ? serial # 35674)
Conn New Wonder Tenor Sax (1920 )
King Cleveland 615 Tenor Sax
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The Clarinet Pages
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![[hot]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/hot.gif)
my yamaha ycl 26 II is blown away by the B+H`s rich fruity tone... i`m rapt man ... she`s even better than i remember my Emperor sounding.
