 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2008-03-06 14:25
James, I logged on with the intention of posting that link! It really is a creative protest, and I'd love to see something similar with music: Maybe invite the kids who play instruments to bring them to class and demonstrate them, and invite everyone else to a "sing-along and invent the instrument" session. At this free-for-all jam, the teacher could hand out the lyrics to folk music or kids' standards such as "The Worms Crawl In, The Worms Crawl Out" and invite everyone who doesn't play a portable instrument to bring a kazoo, or a pan with a wooden spoon or anything that could work as a rhythm-maker. They could even march this session down to the administrative offices and back, or make it a field trip to a Board of Education meeting....
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: mnorswor
Date: 2008-03-06 14:51
Thanks for sharing this article James. My favorite part of it is the lat line...
"Art," the third-grader said with a knowing sigh, "takes time."
Truer words were never spoken
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-03-06 15:20
Michael,
...poor kid. He has no idea! (and at the rate we're headed...)
Lelia,
I'm having to redesign a lot of my studio's direction to attempt account for and anticipate the difficulties created by public education. I have yet to decide if I'm going to organize to lobby against some of the ridiculous things my area is doing.
What a complete bummer!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-03-06 15:59
Cool!
Cool!
Cool!
We don't need tests in this every kid disadvantaged era, we need accomplishment and motivation, application.
Bob Phillips
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Author: allencole
Date: 2008-03-06 16:15
James,
I'd like to know more about what factors you are having to adjust your studio to deal with. My impression Charlottesville-Albemarle is that music seems pretty strong. (Maybe less so outside of Albemarle County)
Here in Richmond, I would classify school music as pretty weak, with the possible exception of Hanover County. I wouldn't attribute our problems here to SOL's or NCLB, but would like to know what they're doing to you in Charlottesville.
I don't want to say too much right now, because I'm curious about what you've brought up. I will say that the issue of leisure time (and the attempt to fill it with supervised activity) is at the crux of my complaints.
Allen Cole
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-03-06 17:54
Hey Allen,
At the highest levels the band programs are quite strong. Albemarle High School and Charlottesville HS both have excellent programs. Western Alb HS and Monticello Hs are both good/ok depending on the year.
The county itself has established a policy to push (rather aggressively) foreign languages. In the middle schools they placed this option in the exploratory period (along with the arts) and now tell students that if they want to get into college they should begin languages in 7th grade.
Along with this, you must take language in 7th to take in 8th...and both years combined equals one high school credit.
I don't disagree with the providing the option to those who want it, and it should be an exploratory class. But suggesting that getting ahead on languages (so that by the end of high school you may have Spanish 4 or 5 on your college resume) is the "academic track" to college admissions is just crap. And the fact that you have to spend 2 years to get 1 high school credit at the expense of the arts is ridiculous.
Studying music, and its subsequent effects on test scores, maturation, discipline, etc...far more valuable to the college admissions process.
This policy change was made three years ago and it's going to be interesting to see what will happen to the high schools in another three years.
And this is just my complaint of the week!
James (I usually don't complain...but they're giving me good reason!)
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2008-03-06 17:55)
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Author: Mike Johnson
Date: 2008-03-07 01:30
According to the website that James provided (http://www.americansforthearts.org/services/arts_education/arts_education_015.asp
) in a previous NCLB discussion, "Education and arts supporters gained footing in the nation's education work when NCLB was passed, listing the arts as one of the 'core academic subjects' of public education."
It also says, "The No Child Left Behind Act’s definition of core academic subjects includes the arts. In this respect, the arts have equal billing with reading, math, science, and other disciplines. And this definition could lead to a huge improvement in national education policy. This means that whenever federal education programs (such as teacher training, school reform, and technology programs) are targeted to “core academic subjects,” the arts may be eligible to receive funds."
As I've opined before, let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. Many people worked hard to get music an equal footing with mathematics. Fix NCLB to ensure high standards for our music, but don't throw it out.
Mike Johnson
Napa, California
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-03-07 01:59
Just because it says it has equal footing doesn't mean that it is the case. In fact, that website provides that the footing is in name only.
If those interested continue to read the site provided above, it then states that most individuals believe that creative subjects are necessary to student success, but that NCLB is in fact reducing the amount of time spent in the arts.
The site proceeds to provide further proof in greater definition of the reduction in arts time based on how well schools are meeting certification standards.
What is the advantage of having equal footing in name, when the actual amount of time students have in the arts is reduced?
"Despite there being 10 core subjects, NCLB currently requires schools to report student achievement test results for only reading and mathematics...Because of the amount of change schools must see in student achievement, there are many reports of decreasing instruction time for other subjects, such as the arts."
The only subjects being tested are math and reading, and satisfying those requirements reduces overall teaching time by as much as 20%.
One can take any small portion of any text out of context to say whatever you like. It does not make it fact. Music is NOT on an equal footing with mathematics.
I'm certain the boy in the initial article is glad to know that his once-a-week-fifty-minute-art-class is on equal footing with all the other core subjects.
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2008-03-07 02:00)
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Author: Mike Johnson
Date: 2008-03-07 06:12
Again, James, the solution is to tweek NCLB. You've stated previously that your public schools are fine and dandy, however the rest of the country, up until NCLB, has suffered from a severe lack of standards.
Complain all you want, but there is no good reason to NOT have measurable standards for all classes. NCLB is the single greatest step toward that objective.
All courses have objectives. The effectiveness of the teaching process can only be measured by how those objectives are met...otherwise, it is just one big pink fluffy free-for-all.
NCLB has IMPROVED math and reading nationwide, something that hasn't really happened for any subject in the last few decades. Minor tweeking by a motivated politician could produce the same results for music. NCLB is up for renewal...have you forwarded any ideas for improvement to your Congressman, like increasing the reporting for music classes, or do you just repeatedly complain on discussion boards?
So let's see...we have the one program that has finally produced some really positive results in our schools, and you want to throw the whole thing out rather than make it work for music too. Brilliant.
Mike Johnson
Napa, California
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-03-07 11:45
Once again, we are going to have to agree to dissagree.
"...however the rest of the country, up until NCLB, has suffered from a severe lack of standards."
Before you spoke solely of California. This statement is blown out of proporiton to support your argument. There are many states who were doing fine before NCLB. Just not yours.
"Complain all you want, but there is no good reason to NOT have measurable standards for all classes."
But we don't have that. We have reporting for two subjects (nationally), and it is optimistically shortsighted to believe that we will have testing for all ten subjects. If the current testing so drastically reduces teaching time and you add eight more tests...there's no more class time left.
"...or do you just repeatedly complain on discussion boards?"
What I have or haven't done at home is not part of the argument, it is your way to form a personal attack on someone whose beliefs you don't like. By the way, I don't sit idly by...I teach.
NCLB is not the only source of positive progress that has ever existed. By the time we wait for NCLB to provide the same "progress" for the arts there won't be many art programs left.
You have not once engaged or acknowledged the core reality right now: NCLB is crippling art programs across the county. You don't have to! You can state up front that you prioritize math and reading as far more important (which is apparent from you argument).
And so the arts may be eligible for federal funding because of the "core subject" designation? So are NINE other subjects!
Does everyone know that the Federal Government owes the states 41 billion dollars for NCLB? Where's the money going to come from?
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2008-03-07 12:16)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-03-07 12:14
Allen,
I realized that I only half-answered your question, and that I didn't give you the half you wanted!
I have the YOCA clarinet ensemble to provide a place for intermediate and advanced clarinetists to study together. In the fall I will start another ensemble to help interested 7th graders (and like-skilled players) to participate as well. This will hopefully combat the reduction in class time that 7th graders experience in my area.
I already work with two beginning classes in different middle schools. Generally speaking the standard of each class is high, and the students are advancing well beyond what the school had previously.
I will be offering group classes (like the ones at the middle schools) open to beginners at a fraction of my regular rate. It will allow more students to have access to professional instruction, as well as provide a ground base for my studio.
I will continue my clarinet festival here in Ch'ville as well.
The home-school population here has shot through the roof in the last five years, and (business wise) that will be a focus of mine to augment my studio and the YOCA ensembles.
I'm also going to implement "class clarinet" (once a month) for my students to cover large topics.
You mention filling leisure time as an issue? Are they over-filled or under-filled? Generally speaking students here are trying to do too many things.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: allencole
Date: 2008-03-07 16:33
On the issue of leisure time, my complaint is the same as yours. Kids are doing way too much stuff, and because most of it is group stuff, it's much more attractive to them and their parents than something as individual as learning an instrument. They also produce more scheduling conflicts than I can handle.
In Hanover, at least, band directors actually care whether the students can play or not, and this gives me enough of a foot in the door in terms of scale requirements, etc. to start getting the kids into really productive lessons.
But in this area overall, band programs are feeling the strain of students with too many other choices, and not enough time or parental support to do their best for band. It manifests itself in playing lower-grade festival music, requiring a lot of extra rehearsal for concerts, festival, etc. (again making private lessons VERY difficult to consistently attend) and not providing enough challenge to talented players to keep their interests up.
In one of Chesterfield's premier programs, I had a string of students walk into the high school band as freshmen and be the #1 or 2 player--and it's not due to brilliant instruction to my part. It's because so few of the older players make any real effort.
Add to this the current fad of massive homework. A lot of parents tell me that their kids are doing homework until 10p most nights.
VCU (Virginia Commonwealth University--for the non-Virginian's here) does a fantastic thing in offering elite concert bands for high schoolers and middle schoolers which meet weekly during the spring. The older group also has a yearly concerto competition in which one student can win the chance to perform a featured solo with the group at its May concert. But participation is terrible, particularly for the middle school group. There's too much other stuff that looks way more sexy, and way more important.
On group lessons:
I've had a lot of requests for this, but haven't been able to make myself do it. It's great if it gets more kids into private instruction, but my fear is that it'll simply satisfy students and parents that they're getting lessons and doing lesson-level work, when they really have an ensemble and are getting ensemble-level work. However, I think that the psychology of a group-level activity would probably trigger much more loyalty from families in terms of scheduling priority. Your once-a-month class for existing private students appeals strongly to me.
On home schoolers:
I will be very curious to see how that market goes. I've had some great home-schooled students, and actually developed a bi-weekly lesson/class program for beginning clarinetists, but there is never enough population. A friend has a successful homeschool band program in his garage in Powhatan. He says that you have to know what they want--and it appears that what a majority want is keep kids in a conservative religious environment, and are likely to have major (and individualistic!) issues with musical styles & history, let alone song content. One of our local megachurches has tried to pick up the slack here, but theirs is not successful either.
I'll be curious to know how these things develop for you.
Allen Cole
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Author: Mike Johnson
Date: 2008-03-07 18:41
James, I'll be happy to follow your lead and debate point by point. My apologies to the regular reader, though, since it is not as pleasant to follow as a discussion.
You stated, "Before you spoke solely of California."
--->This is a flat out lie. I specifically mentioned the nationwide outrage over the poor quality of our schools. My examples were from California, because that is where I live...most of my friends teaching in other states will confirm the same in theirs. Glad to hear everything is peachy-keen in your state, but you are by far the exception to the rule.
You stated, "But we don't have (measurable standards for all classes). We have reporting for two subjects (nationally), and it is optimistically shortsighted to believe that we will have testing for all ten subjects. If the current testing so drastically reduces teaching time and you add eight more tests...there's no more class time left."
--->Your assumption that testing and learning can not be done simultaneously is false. For example, if the music objectives include at least 10 evaluated performances over the course of the year, there is no sacrifice of learning for testing. Besides, testing itself is a valuable part of learning...the recall and application of information is just as important as listening to the lecture...if not more so.
You say, "What I have or haven't done at home is not part of the argument, it is your way to form a personal attack on someone whose beliefs you don't like."
--->Actually, it is not a personal attack to point out that you repeatedly complain about this topic. So long as you feel the need to assault what is overall a good program, I will be happy to call you on it.
You say, "By the time we wait for NCLB to provide the same "progress" for the arts there won't be many art programs left."
--->Ummm, NCLB comes up for review this year, and many changes are being pursued. Again, you didn't answer my question...have you even bothered to contact your Congressman with suggestions?
You say, "You have not once engaged or acknowledged the core reality right now: NCLB is crippling art programs across the county. You don't have to! You can state up front that you prioritize math and reading as far more important (which is apparent from you argument)."
--->Your website that YOU provided praised NCLB for placing the arts on an equal footing with math and reading. Has it been implemented well? No. It certainly doesn't warrant throwing the whole thing out. And yes, for the record, I do believe more time should be spent on math and reading than on music, especially at the younger grades...there is overwhelming evidence supporting the idea that mastering these two subject areas at a young age are big indicators of success in later subject areas. Music still needs to be protected and taught well, though.
As a reminder, listed below is what NCLB has done so far...from James' website. Imagine the possibilities if we make adjustments, such as requiring the reporting music results along with the math and reading, to improve the music end of things.
Facts about NCLB from the 2007 Nation's Report Card:
- In reading, scores for 4th graders were the highest on record.
- In math, scores for 4th and 8th graders were the highest on record.
- African-American and Hispanic students are making significant progress, posting all-time highs in a number of categories.
- In 4th grade reading, the achievement gap between white and African-American students is at an all-time low.
- In math, 4th and 8th grade African-American students achieved their highest scores to date.
- In 4th grade reading and in 4th and 8th grade math, Hispanic students set new achievement records.
- In reading, Hispanic 8th graders matched their all-time high.
Mike Johnson
Napa, California
Post Edited (2008-03-07 18:59)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-03-08 16:39
Mike,
I have reread your previous statements in entirety. The only state you speak of is California. Although you make generalizations about the nations “problems” you gave no data or facts regarding any other state. If you would please quote information to the contrary I will happily apologize for misrepresenting your statements.
The National Assessment of Educational Progress (“The Nation’s Report Card”) presents your facts differently.
Analysis of NAEP statistics shows that No Child Left Behind is an “escalating failure” that is costing billions of dollars and exerting increasing stress on teachers and students. The states understand how high the stakes are and have already begun cheating the system to meet certification.
State test are of poor quality, narrow the curriculum, and teach test-taking…not learning. They are also LOWERING THEIR STANDARDS to achieve certification. Here’s a quote:
“Arts, foreign languages, social studies, physical education and recess have been squeezed from the curriculum, especially in schools with high numbers of minority and low-income students. In the past six years, these effects have been documented in dozens of reports by reputable, independent researchers. When fewer students are prepared to be successful citizens, rising test scores do not mean academic improvement.”
The facts you have provided to substantiate you argument appear in this website:
http://nationsreportcard.gov/reading_2007/
The gains you speak of are the improvement in scores between 1992 and 2007! These are the facts that the Department of Education are touting as success.
If you analyze the educational gains between 2001 and 2007 (the years NCLB have been in effect) students have gained no more than a few points (out of 500) in any category if they’ve made any progress at all! NCLB has succeeded so poorly that those who wish to promote it have to skew the statistics.
Here’s a chart for reading (4th grade then 8th):
http://nationsreportcard.gov/reading_2007/r0002.asp?tab_id=tab1&subtab_id=Tab_1#chart
http://nationsreportcard.gov/reading_2007/r0002.asp
And for math (4th grade then 8th):
http://nationsreportcard.gov/math_2007/m0002.asp?tab_id=tab1&subtab_id=Tab_1#chart
http://nationsreportcard.gov/math_2007/m0002.asp?tab_id=tab2&subtab_id=Tab_1#chart
The facts are: Math has improved (but had been on an upward trend for a decade) and reading has improved negligibly or not at all. There was greater improvement in reading in the years BEFORE NCLB.
“After six years, there is overwhelming evidence that the deeply flawed “No Child Left Behind” law (NCLB) is doing more harm than good in our nation’s public schools.”
No Child Left Behind is an expensive failure. Those are the facts. Here are the sources:
http://www.fairtest.org/NCLB-After-Six-Years
http://www.fairtest.org/naep-reading-and-math-score-trends-show-state-high
http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/Bridging-Differences/naep/
http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/Bridging-Differences/2007/10/what_did_the_naep_scores_mean.html
James
PS: And the arts are being subjugated for this?
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2008-03-08 16:47)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-03-08 16:48
Apologies, I can't get all of the links to work properly!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Mike Johnson
Date: 2008-03-08 21:23
James,
In the previous discussion thread, I stated "Our schools, nationwide, have been performing poorly. What is your solution? Should we just give them MORE money, despite the fact that several states, California included, have conducted studies proving that more money won't fix the problem?" You responded in this thread, "Before, you spoke solely of California." That is called lying.
Once again, James, you present a biased and inaccurate picture of NCLB. You are cherrypicking your data. For example, you highlight the fact that the statistical comparison was between 1992 and 2007. However, if you actually look at the 4th grade reading score data for the years available, there is a clear effect from NCLB:
1992: 217
1994: 214
1998: 216 (2-point average)
2000: 213
----NCLB passed---
2002: 219
2003: 218
2005: 219
2007: 221
The data back to 1992 is likely included to show the the gains are REAL and not just an off year...a valid statistical technique.
With the 8th grade reading data, you can obtain a crude confidence interval by taking the statistic plus or minus two standard errors. This means that the NCLB, data, while showing a slight decline, could actually differ by less than one point! [264.34 - 2*0.418] - [262.17 + 2*0.180] = 0.974......not exactly significant. Even so, the post-NCLB 8th grade data average is still BETTER the pre-NCLB data (263.00 vs 261.17)!
Also, your statement, "There was greater improvement in reading in the years BEFORE NCLB." is certainly not true for 4th grade (the biggest improvement was from 2000 to 2002, during which NCLB passed) and not necessarily true for 8th grade (the standard errors are so large that the improvement could have easily been as little as 262.09 - 261.292 = 0.798!).
As far as the math improvement, the data you provided showed the largest increases in math for both 4th and 8th grades occurring between 2000 and 2003...precisely when NCLB took effect (2001). Whether math was already trending upward in the '90s or not is irrelevant...the post-NCLB math data shot it up to a new, higher plateau, closer to where we need to be for keeping up with international competition.
Also, apparently the history folks have figured out how to make NCLB work for them...surely us music folk can too:
"America’s elementary school students have made significant
gains in U.S. history and civics..."
http://nationsreportcard.gov/ushistory_2006/media/pdf/News_release.PDF
Again, NCLB works. It is idiotic to try and throw out something that has clearly worked. Tweeking it to make it work better for music is easier and much more realistic. A GOOD ARTS program and HIGH STANDARDS, contrary to what you imply James, are not mutually exclusive.
And, if testing is so evil, why aren't you proposing we get rid of it completely? I'm sure there are plenty of grade school, high school, and college students who would love to not having to take tests.
Mike Johnson
Napa, California
Post Edited (2008-03-08 22:28)
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2008-03-09 17:15
If testing is so great, I propose that all presidents, senators, congressmen, and judges take a standardized test every year. Then we citizens could compare our representatives with others from different states and with previous officeholders. Candidates for office would take the same test so we could compare them to incumbents. Imagine the howls from Washington.
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Author: Mike Johnson
Date: 2008-03-09 19:22
Elmo,
I would love to see how our politicians measure up.
On the testing note, however, a myth has been propagated that increased testing means less learning. This is simply not true, especially considering that one of the most important parts of learning is the application and recall of information. The mere act of trying to remember or use something makes it stick in the brain better. This is one reason why testing has always been a part of the educational process. The other big reason, of course, is to measure how much learning has actually occurred...this reflects on the instructor, the student, and the teaching process. When it comes to learning, results count...especially when children and public dollars are involved.
In my opinion, there needs to be more TYPES of testing that is measured and reported. For example, my 3 older kids each learn differently, and respond to different types of testing differently. My oldest son is very auditory and interactive...he learns best by debating and arguing, and tests better with oral board examinations. My oldest daughter learns best by sitting off quietly on her own, and does well with written exams. My youngest son is extremely hands-on, and learns and tests best when that is incorporated.
These differing methods and techniques should be incorporated in to our standardized testing. For example, a standardized music test should include a written exam, an oral board, and a performance. For science, a written exam, and oral board, and an experiment. Naturally, some people will do better in some areas than in others...but it would provide a much more realistic picture of student abilities.
Another issue that needs to be addressed is the idea that testing will only increase "teaching to the test". Let's think about this logically...if the test is based on the stated course objectives, and the test question bank is large enough with periodic revisions, then "teaching to the test" will mean teaching to the course objectives without the risk of teachers teaching exam questions...there would be too many!
And for those anti-testers out there, what would be the consequences of getting rid of ALL testing?
Mike Johnson
Napa, California
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Author: Tara
Date: 2008-03-09 19:27
Elmo- I like your idea, ha ha. But here's the catch- say Mr. Congressman scores very high on his test. After he retires his successor MUST score higher than him. It doesn't matter that Mr. Successor is improving his own scores, he must score higher than Mr. Congressman. OR ELSE...
Only when no child is allowed to get ahead may no child be left behind.
By the way, I teach in a public school where kids with low test scores in previous years are yanked out of their elective classes (arts, etc) for a "boot camp" to prepare for testing. Hmm...
Tara
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2008-03-09 20:37
I think in some case testing can spur action to help students. A friend of my nephew's approached the high stakes testing in 3rd grade unable to read. There was a big panic about what to do. Yet the parents had been concerned for a couple of years before that that their son was not reading as he needed to be. Why did this school wait until third grade to really address the problem? The obvious answer is looming standardized tests..
I am also interested in NCLB's effect on immigrant students, and California is probably as good a place to start as any. If scores are indeed up among Hispanics, that is a success. The teachers here talk about putting new immigrants in front of a computer for two hours when they don't have the English skills to read the test at all, and I think that issue needs to be addressed. A couple of years later, however, you bet I want to know how that student is doing compared to his or her native-born peers! That's called holding the school accountable for student progress.
Barb
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