 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-03-07 18:41
The "Technique" article in the Clarinet Magazine got me thinking about articulation at fast speed.
We all know that great masters can tongue each 32nd note at 240bpm and such things - question is: does the audience hear a difference between normally articulated and legato notes at this speed?
There's inevitably an echo in a concert hall which interferes with the articulation, especially at higher speeds, and I listened to a number of live and studio recordings with fast (solo) passages, and I couldn't necessarily tell a clean legato from a clean "normal", or even a clean staccato at higher speeds.
So, when I encounter three measures worth of /16 or /32 notes, concentrate on proper timing (fingers!) or proper articulation as well? Would anyone honestly notice a difference under real-life conditions?
(I am not challenging the composer's intention when he put staccato marks over those 32nds - if you can play that, good for you)
--
Ben
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2008-03-08 16:26
The intent of the music must dictate the final outome. If you listen to the excerpt of Semeramis provided in the Osborne material cited by Sylvain, the articulation is clear and yet the notes are full. Just because someone CAN sound like automatic gunfire doesn't necessarily mean that they SHOULD.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2008-03-08 16:38
This separates the top professionals from most of us. Why? Because it is difficult, very difficult. One mpc maker keeps a selection of mpcs for his clients to try. He then starts with the mpc which produces the best articulation for the client and modifies it as desired.
richard smith
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2008-03-09 17:04
I went to a Clarinetfest and heard a guy who specializes in rapid tonguing. F rom my seat in the auditorium I couldn't hear any notes-it sounded like a really bad edgy sound with a buzz in it.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-03-09 23:18
I think the short answer is the particular passage in the orchestra. There are times that it just can't be done by the majority of orchestra players. If those cases we tongue two and articulate two. There are even times when we just slur it all because it's completely unplayable the way it's written. We're doing a piece in a few weeks that has sextuplet staccato at 168 to the quarter note. I don't know about you but not many of us can tongue that fast. In those cases we simply "fake" it. Let the flutes tongue it and hide behind them. When it's that fast no one usually makes a fuss about it, even the conductor. If it's a solo passage you do what ever you can do to get by. At some point it goes so fast you can't really tell anyway. A professional has to tongue fast but there's a limit to what's expected. If you listen to some of the old recordings of some of the fast staccato passages you can sometimes hear a few slurs thrown in and no one really cared as long as it was clean and musical. Beethoven 4th and 6th are good examples. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2008-03-10 01:33)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-03-10 17:06
Ed, by the way,
Thanks for the link to your very useful and informative web page.
Bob Phillips
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-03-10 17:37
Ben, I'm not exactly sure what you are asking  but the short answer is you can't play what you can't play. You also can't play better than your best with the most practice. So if you are "tied" to a position (for example playing in an orchestra) then you play what you need to play the best you can. I guess you (i.e. anyone) can quit, or maybe they fire you, but that's completely different issue. I think the person who chooses what music to play needs to consider everything to decide if it is a good choice to play the specific piece they chose.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-03-10 20:10
> Ben, I'm not exactly sure what you are asking but the short answer is you
> can't play what you can't play. You also can't play better than your best with
> the most practice.
Yes, that sounds logical.
What I was getting after was "from what speed is the additional effort of fingering AND tonguing a mere waste of energy?" - because no one would hear the difference anyway. (fingering OR tonguing is not quite the same problem)
I quickly learned the mp3 approach - skip what's fast, faint and forlorn (in all the brass ff) and concentrate on passages where we're actually heard. The venues we're usually playing in suggest that the discernible limit is somewhere between 1/16 and 1/32, depending on tempo and ambient orchestration. Everything faster just melts into some kind of vibrato or mush. (hey, we're seven or eight clarinets, all playing the same rhythm)
--
Ben
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-03-11 04:41
"from what speed is the additional effort of fingering AND tonguing a mere waste of energy?"
I think that's something you need to decide on the specific context.
David, I thought I was clear but in case I wasn't, I meant that you can't practice mroe than you can, and you can't play better than the best you can. That includes everything that allows you to play your best no matter what it is.
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Author: mnorswor
Date: 2008-03-11 13:20
Ed, completely agree with you. My question to you is what you might do in the Bartered Bride Overture?
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2008-03-12 09:33
So I've just taken on an arrangement of Czardas for Bb soloist with brass band accompaniment. All the semiquaver (=1/16) runs are marked staccato in the part. Well, I can't actually play them true staccato. But I notice in rehearsals yesterday that it actually sounds quite punchy with just the lightest separation of the notes. Also: different intervals require different amounts of work to separate them properly, and to make all those up-and-down arpeggios at all musically interesting requires a certain amount of phrasing. So I'm not actually all that cut up that I can't play it like a machine gun - I'm not sure it would actually sound better (though it might sound showier).
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-03-12 11:02
I think Ben is attempting to discriminate between what can be done and what can be perceived by the audience.
To that end I would say that (of course) concert setting, program choices, and ensemble quality all impact the outcome.
If, Ben, you had a section of Morales', or Frosts, or Druckers, etc,... you would be able to hear the difference between extremely fast legato, marcato, and staccato of all (most?) lengths.
But if you have one/two individuals who cannot execute as well as the rest then you would be "muddying the waters" quite a bit.
James
(...of course most groups don't have a section of Morales', Frosts,...in our ensembles)
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: William
Date: 2008-03-12 13:19
I think it should be noted that language of articulation markings is not "spoken" the same among composeres and often it is up to the performer or conductor to decide on exact style within the perceived context of the music.
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