 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: janlynn
Date: 2008-02-29 16:15
My father (who plays pedal steel guitar) asked me if I had ever heard of the circle of 5ths. It just so happens I just started learning it in my lessons.
1.He wanted to know what good is it? He said he knows it tells you how many sharps and flats, but he has that memorized. I said, yes - thats the idea - to memorize it. and asked him how many sharps or flats are in the key of F#? he went thru the scale naming the notes and came up with the right answer. (I dont consider that memorizing). maybe the kind of music he reads is different than what I read? Becuz he plays guitar?
2. I pointed out that when I get a piece of music, I first look at the key signature so I know what notes are sharp or flat thruout a piece - for example the key of F would have 1 flat - Bb. He then asked me why it is not called A#. I didnt know what to say altho I know there is a good reason. Can someone please explain it?
thanks
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-02-29 16:39
There are also harmonic reasons: the relationship between the first note of a key (Tonic) and the fifth note (Dominant) is the most important relationship in western tonal music.
The movement away from and back to tonic is at the heart of most (W.T.)music. The relationship is so important is that the most likely modulation (in classical music) is from the key of the tonic to the key of the dominant.
The memorization of sharps/flats is incidental to the circle of fifths (or fourths), not the purpose of it.
If you wanted to remember the progression of sharps you could just: Fried Chicken Goes Down Awfully Easy Baby.
James
Gnothi Seauton
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kilo
Date: 2008-02-29 17:26
In the keys of B major, F# major, and C# major, and the relative minors it is "A#".
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-02-29 17:28
Kilo, That doesn't answer the question.
Think about F# major vs Gb major: 6 flats or 6sharps.
Well Db major vs C# major: 5 flats or 7sharps.
Ab major vs G# major: 4 flats or 6sharps + 1 double sharps.
Eb major vs D# major: 3 flats or 5sharps + 2 double sharps.
Bb major vs A# major: 2 flats or 4sharps + 3 double sharps.
Do "double sharps" exist? Yes.
So which way would you rather think about it? 2 flats sounds pretty good to me!
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2008-02-29 17:30)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: janlynn
Date: 2008-02-29 17:29
But he wants to know in the key of F why do we say Bb and not A#. He says whats the difference, its the same note. I KNOW there is a reason, but I dont know what it is.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-02-29 17:34
Whoops! missunderstood the question...sorry Kilo!
The reason why it is "Bb" not "A#" is because of music theory. I explain it to my students this way:
"There", "their", and "they're" all SOUND the same. They all mean different things. You spell them one way or another based on context, and their spelling is understood in the same way.
So it is with enharmonic spellings of notes. F major has a Bb, not an A#.
Every time a scale adds a flat it is added to the fourth step of the scale. Every time a sharp is added to a scale it is added to the seventh step.
Aside from the fact that THIS IS SO I have never thought how this was established...any thoughts?
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2008-02-29 17:34)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2008-02-29 17:36
OK, janlynn -- here is what I think the answer to your second question is . . .
It has to do with note spelling.
In any given scale, you don't use the same note name twice. So, if you are doing a major scale starting on "F," you have to go F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E-F, in order to reconcile the proper arrangement of half/whole steps with the available tone note names.
Depending on the mode and key, this works universally, afaik.
Susan
P.S. Your dad sounds a lot like my husband.
Post Edited (2008-02-29 17:37)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: janlynn
Date: 2008-02-29 17:41
hmmm your last response makes the most sense to me except for one thing...
in language - we spell their/theyre differently becuz they mean different things even tho they sound the same.
in music - even tho the note is called something different, it is played the same way. how we play an Bb is the same way we play an A#. So why would it matter if we look at the key of F and say it has 1 sharp or 1 flat?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: janlynn
Date: 2008-02-29 17:45
ohsuzan - NOW i understand ( i think). the reason is becuz " you don't use the same note name twice" and A# is already used in another key?
My Dad is always asking me questions and we end up nowhere becuz he tries to compare guitar and clarinet. He also plays by number. He also told me that if he wants to play in another key, he just moves down a couple frets and its a different key. So he has no use for key signatures.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-02-29 17:52
Janlynn,
If you put Ohsuzan's very accurate answer with mine I think it covers all bases.
Suzan's explanation of whole steps/half steps is the reason why it is Bb NOT A# (also, F# is the first sharp in any key signature...).
Major scale steps go in this order: with F major used as example.
F W G W A H Bb W C W D W E H F
W = whole step
H = Half step
And yes, there is only one of each note name in any scale.
In this case, though, my analogy is complete. A# in this context would not mean the same thing as Bb, it could imply many things including key change. Bb & A# SOUND the same (in and of themselves). Which is used is deduced by context and meaning.
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2008-02-29 17:54)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: janlynn
Date: 2008-02-29 17:56
Ah Ha! Got it and understand it enough to relate it to Dad. Of course I'm prepared he will come back with another question....then why this or that - sigh -
Thanks!!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-02-29 18:03
When a really good string player sees a # they would tend to play it slightly higher than the same pitch written in a flat, especially in string chamber music and solo’s. The simple answer is that conventional composers use a key signature to identify the key they are writing in and there is no key with just an A#, it would have to the key if B major, five sharps, instead of F major. Many times contemporary composers do not use a key signature and you might find an A# instead of a Bb being common. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: John25
Date: 2008-02-29 18:11
Could I add a bit to the very good advice already given?
Imagine you have no sharps or flats and you begin a scale on the note F. When you get to the note B, the scale will sound wrong because the B will be B natural. Hence you have to flatten it, and that's why it's Bb and not A#.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: janlynn
Date: 2008-02-29 18:14
Thanks John - that is something my Dad will understand (and me too
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: rsholmes
Date: 2008-02-29 18:36
Just to throw another element into it -- it is only in 12-tone equal temperament that B-flat and A-sharp are the same pitch. There are other ways of tuning scales (Google for terms like just intonation, quarter comma meantone, pythagorean tuning, etc.) in which B-flat is higher than A-sharp... or lower!
What it comes down to is, B-flat is defined to be the note you get by starting at B and going down seven perfect fifths (and up four octaves). A-sharp is the note you get by starting at A and going up seven perfect fifths (and down four octaves). So if I start at B-flat and go up by fifths I get:
Bb F C G D A E B F# C# G# D# A#
and the relationship between Bb and A# depends upon the size of a perfect fifth, which depends on the tuning. In equal temperament the perfect fifth is defined such that Bb and A# are the same pitch (as are Db and C#, etc.) In tunings where the fifth is larger (e.g. Pythagorean tuning, which uses a 'just' perfect fifth), A# is higher than Bb. In tunings where the fifth is smaller (e.g. quarter comma meantone), A# is lower than Bb.
One way to define the F major scale is to start on the note a fifth below F (which is Bb) and take it and the next 6 notes of the circle of fifths (F, C, G, D, A, E). Then clearly you get Bb and not A#. Similarly B major uses E, B, F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, so has A# and not Bb.
In equal temperament they're the same pitch, but the theory and nomenclature we use is more general than that (and predates the adoption of equal temperament) in that it allows for the possibility of the two notes being different pitches.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-02-29 18:54
Excellent point rsholmes!
Janlynn...that might make your dad's head explode!
James
Gnothi Seauton
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bubalooy
Date: 2008-02-29 20:45
Just two little things. For your father, visually it is easy to see that all the white notes on the piano have names without flat or sharp (ok B could be called c flat etc) but generally these are referred to with just the letter names. If you start building a major scale from the note f it will be easy to see, that you lower the note b you don't raise the note a, as you do in some other keys. Second point; a sharp and b flat sound the same on piano or fretted instruments, but in reality, they are not the same point. The notes harmonic position changes such that the b flat as a root tone of a chord is different that a sharp as the third of an f sharp major chord , for example. For that matter, B flat as the root of a chord isn't the same as b flat as the minor third of a g minor chord. With winds, strings, voice and some other instruments, we hear the difference and adjust. Keyboard instruments and fretted instruments can't do this. Does your father play guitar, or pedal steel guitar. If he uses a slide, he may notice that he sometimes plays the same note a little higher or lower not the string. If he has frets, he can't make this adjustment.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2008-02-29 20:51
janlynn -
There are two ways of going around the circle of fifths. The usual way is to keep adding flats until you reach Gb major (6 flats), switch enharmonically to F# major (6 sharps) and then start subtracting sharps.
However, you could also keep adding flats, going to Cb (7 flats), Fb (8 flats), and so on, until you reached the C major equivalent key of Cbb (14 flats), and even keep going to Gbbb (15 flats), ad infinitum.
No one would do this, except as a stunt, but logically and harmonically it's perfectly good. For your father's key of A# major, begin with the key signature of C# major (7 sharps) and add 3 more sharps, just as you would if you went from C major to A major. This makes 10 sharps, or 4 sharps and 3 double sharps.
You need this sometimes. Schubert and Chopin wrote pieces in C#, modulating to the dominant (G#, with 8 sharps) and through the secondary dominant (D#, with 9 sharps). For short excursions, composers write with the double sharps, because this is the correct musical grammar. However, if the music stays in a super-extreme key, they switch to the enharmonic equivalent of Ab and Db to permit the performer to read in a familiar key.
To become an excellent player, you need to be able to play in any key, including the extreme ones. Going around the circle of fifths is an organized way of learning to play in all keys. I begin most practice sessions by playing around the circle of fifths in each major and minor key, in scales and scales of thirds as in the famous two-page exercise in the Klose method. Even better is going through the Baermann method, Book 3, which has every scale in many different patterns. This is the subject of years of work.
As a pop music player, your father will often be asked by a singer to move a song up or down a half step, or a third. If the song is in A, and the singer needs it up a half step, presto he's in A#, which of course he'll play as Bb.
Write out a tune for your father in A#. Then write it out in A## (17 sharps) and see how *he* likes it.
Ken Shaw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BandieSF
Date: 2008-02-29 23:53
To answer part of your first question (that he reads different music), it's possible. Most of the time instead of reading the five-line four-spaces staff we read, sometimes guitar (and bass guitar as well) read off of tabliture, which is kind of like a road map of the neck. There are no note heads or anything in tabliture, much less a key signature. Being a guitar player myself, I wish I could read staff music. But all I can read is tabliture. That might explain why your dad had to count up.
As to your second question, it all depends on what chords and such are in the piece. It's for that same reason that sometimes the note is notated as an A# rather than a Bb, because for it to be a true chord, the intervals must be the true interval that the note is to fit in the chord. For example an F minor chord: the notes would be F, Ab, and C, rather than F, G#, and C, because the Ab has to be a minor third away from the F.
We just started talking about intervals in band class, so I guess I've listened well.
-----
Current set-up:
Classical:
Strength 4 1/4 Legere Signature Series
Vandoren M13 Lyre
Jazz:
Strength 3 3/4 Legere Quebec
Pomarico Jazz*
Clarinets:
Buffet E11 Student Model
Buffet R13 Greenline
<http://operationhighschool.blogspot.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: timg
Date: 2008-03-01 00:45
The F-major scale goes F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F.
You *could* write it as F, G, A, A#, C, D, E, F, but then two notes would have to share the same line on the staff, and you couldn't use a key-signature. You'd have to mark the 'A's as sharp or natural every time.
-Tim
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mrn
Date: 2008-03-01 03:06
In case anyone needs a good mnemonic, I think the circle of 5ths is easier to remember in terms of flats, rather than sharps: BEADGCF (bead, greatest common factor). If you have one flat in the key signature, it's Bb. With two, it's Bb and Eb. Three, Bb, Eb, and Ab, etc.
The progression of sharps is the same as the flats spelled backwards: FCGDAEB.
In flat keys, the name of key is the next to last flat. (If you have Bb & Eb in the key signature, then the key is Bb. With Bb, Eb, & Ab the key is Eb, etc.).
In sharp keys, the name of the key is a half step up from the last sharp. (With F# in the key sig., it's key of G. With F# & C# in the key sig., it's key of D, etc.)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: allencole
Date: 2008-03-01 09:02
Being a guitar guy also, I'd like to expand on what James said about Question #1:
The circle of 5th's makes that V-I relationship easy to figure out and expand.
Here are a couple of things your Dad might try to see for himself:
1 - Sweet Georgia Brown. When playing this song in C, you would start on an A7 which is the V of your next chord D7, which is the V of the following chord G7, which finally resolves to C. And right after hitting the C chord, it's Bm7 to E7, and back around the circle again.
2 - I've Got Rhythm. The bridge of this song is a typical windup around the circle. If you're in C, the chord sequence is E7-A7-D7-G7 which takes you back to the main melody in C.
Although we play chords from left to right, they are derived from right to left...i.e., chords are generally moving towards a target. Both of the above examples work kind of like winding up a kitchen timer and watching it work its way back to zero and ring the bell.
3 - Three-chord rock & roll. The I, IV and V of each key make up the three basic chords of chordal harmony. If you look at any three adjacent chords on the circle, the center one is the I chord, and the IV and V chords are to either side of it. (most circle diagrams that I work with have IV on the left and V on the right)
4 - Sweet Home Alabama. Works in the opposite direction. It's basically a song that goes I-IV over and over, but it gets it's distinctive flavor because after the I chord a "IV of IV" is inserted (at the word 'home'), which creates a stronger drive towards the actual IV chord. The original chord sequence is D-C-G, I believe. This would be I-IV/IV-IV in the key of D. (and no I'm NOT trying to revive the old argument about whether the song is I-IV/IV-IV in D or V-IV-I in G...even the composers don't agree on that)
And this song illustrates the coolest thing about the circle, IMO. In a song that starts on I but has IV as a target, (like "Take a Walk on the Wild Side") the resolution doesn't feel very strong. Sweet Home Alabama makes IV feel really good by reaching out a degree further on the circle (IV of IV) and then coming back to IV as it's pulled toward I.
It's kind of hard to verbalize all this, but if any or all of these songs are familar to your Dad, he can actually see the Circle at work.
The circle, coupled with the scale-based 'diatonic chords' (a la "Lean on Me") account for most chord movement in popular music. I feel sure that your dad will recognize both things if he tries them.
My grandpa played by ear but didn't know about the circle. He used his own 4-chord system, which gave him access to the circle even though he didn't know about it:
1st Change - I
2nd Change - V
3rd Change - IV
4th Change - V of V
The play-by-ear guys generally figure it out one way or another.
Allen Cole
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-03-01 11:36
Hey Allen! Long time no read!
Also...in many pieces as you arrive near the cadence (and expanded upon greatly in jazz) you have a: ii V I chordal pattern...which is a cycle of fifths.
timg: you actually cannot write the scale that way. Each scale has only one of each note name, and there are many great scale explanations above.
James
Gnothi Seauton
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-03-01 21:41
The best sentence that I've heard of it also works in reverse for the B's:
I got it from a student of mine from Australia.
Fat Charlie Gets Donuts After Eating Breakfast for #'s
and
Breakfast Eating After Donuts Gets Charlie Fat for b's
Figures I'd like the one with food in it ............. 
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BandieSF
Date: 2008-03-02 17:58
I had come up with a fairly silly acronym (I now think it's quite stupid compared to some of these others I'm seeing, but I'll share it anyways):
BEADGCF - BE A Darn Good Clarinet Fingerer
Told you it was silly! ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
-----
Current set-up:
Classical:
Strength 4 1/4 Legere Signature Series
Vandoren M13 Lyre
Jazz:
Strength 3 3/4 Legere Quebec
Pomarico Jazz*
Clarinets:
Buffet E11 Student Model
Buffet R13 Greenline
<http://operationhighschool.blogspot.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: allencole
Date: 2008-03-02 23:21
Nice pnemonics, everybody! Keep 'em coming...
I'm going to start a new thread to on that subject (where they'll be easier to find in a search) and I hope you all will consider sharing them there.
James:
I've been absent a bit. This church job is really keeping me busy. Have had to take a crash course in contemporary praise music, and brush up on my electric bass & guitar skills.
You are absolutely right abou ii-V-I, and I might also (if my post weren't so lengthy) have put forward the fact that all the C-A7-D7-G7 moments in "I've Got Rhythm" are similarly a windup out three notches that keep ticking back to the I chord. And let's not forget all the chromatic sounding stuff that a few tritone substitutions can provide.
This subject always gnaws at me because I have some good guitar players even here at the church, who can't figure out or transpose chord changes except by capo.
For any programming whiz's out there... I have always fantasized about having something sort of MIDI device, either on my website, in a computer program, or in a device (like Suzuki's electronic autoharp-shaped-object) that would organize chords in the form of the circle, and maybe have a row straight across for the diatonic chords in a given key. Even if it only worked in major keys, I think it would shine a light on a lot of curious but confused souls.
Sonically, I can demonstrate this stuff pretty well on a guitar, but visually it's not much help to wind players. I can get my high school guys to do I-IV-V stuff via arpeggios and the middle schoolers to knock out "Heart and Soul" but anything beyond that becomes too much of a diversion from the basic direction of their lessons.
If an electronic device (or application) with obvious logical orgainization were made, I think that even younger kids could develop an ear for basic chordal harmony even before they can truly understand it. Is anything already out there?
Allen Cole
Post Edited (2008-03-02 23:51)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bassie
Date: 2008-03-03 08:07
Thanks, rsholmes - enlightening. I've known about this stuff for a while but never really understood it.
So if you go right round the circle of fifths, twelve perfect fifths each frequency ratio 3:2, you don't end up where you started. The gap, as I understand it, is called a 'comma'. What then happens in quarter comma meantone?
*
I have another related question. I have a part for my Bb instrument which briefly modulates into seven flats. Does this mean it's in nine flats at concert pitch? :-)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-03-03 11:26
Bassie,
"I have another related question. I have a part for my Bb instrument which briefly modulates into seven flats. Does this mean it's in nine flats at concert pitch? :-)"
I believe that would be five flats and two double flats.
James
Gnothi Seauton
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: allencole
Date: 2008-03-03 16:37
Tobin wrote:
> Bassie,
>
> "I have another related question. I have a part for my Bb
> instrument which briefly modulates into seven flats. Does this
> mean it's in nine flats at concert pitch? :-)"
>
> I believe that would be five flats and two double flats.
>
> James
>
Sounds like a great way to ditch your accompanist...
Allen Cole
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: rsholmes
Date: 2008-03-03 20:18
The difference between twelve 'just' perfect fifths (frequency ratio 3:2) and seven octaves is called a Pythagorean comma; it's about 23.5 cents, or just under a quarter of a semitone.
Also, with just fifths, the difference between four fifths and a just major third (frequency ratio 5:4) plus two octaves is a 'syntonic comma', slightly smaller at about 21.5 cents.
In quarter comma meantone tuning the size of the fifth is reduced by a quarter of a syntonic comma, so in that system four fifths is exactly equal to a major third plus two octaves. However, twelve fifths then are smaller by 12 x 1/4 = 3 syntonic commas, so you come out smaller than seven octaves by an amount equal to (3 syntonic commas - 1 Pythagorean comma), or about 41 cents -- almost a quarter tone.
So if you take a keyboard instrument and tune it up by going up and down by just fifths (Pythagorean tuning), you end up with two problems: the thirds are off by 21.5 cents, and one of the fifths is off by 23.5 cents. If you instead use quarter comma tempered fifths, the major thirds are just (and the minor thirds and the fifths are off by only 5.4 cents), but one fifth is off by 41 cents. If you stay in keys where that fifth doesn't come up, this is fine, but composers like to modulate into any key they can get.
So a third option is to temper the fifths by a twelfth of a Pythagorean comma. Then the circle of fifths closes, and all the fifths are good -- off by only about 2 cents. But the thirds are off by (1 syntonic comma - 4 x 1/12 Pythagorean comma), or about 13.5 cents: not as bad as in the Pythagorean tuning case, but still pretty far away from just. We've gotten used to it, though.
(Well, most people have. Harry Partch wasn't one of them)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
