 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: BandieSF
Date: 2008-02-16 00:23
Earlier this week, on Thursday, I had my weekly private lesson and we spent the lesson going over comment sheets from the Solo and Ensemble event this past weekend. One of the comments concerned tuning, so half the lesson was spent discussing the tuning tendencies of my instrument and the two barrels I have. I've got the barrel that came with my Buffet E11 all grenadilla wood Bb clarinet that I use for marching and pep rallies, and the barrel that caome with my Buffet R13 Greenline Bb clarinet that I use for concerts. Last night I spent an hour tuning notes in all ranges with both barrels. The result: pushed in all the way, the longer R13 barrel was better in tune overall compared to the shorter E11 barrel. Even after pulling out on the E11 barrel, the pitch of notes across all ranges were better in tune on the R13 barrel. Today I brought both barrels to school and started out on the R13 barrel. After a decent warm-up, I was tuned and everything was flat, and by more than just a little bit. This was quite a bit flat. I put on the other barrel (the E11 barrel) and experienced a harder time keeping in tune with chords, especially those pesky major thirds that have to be lowered. Intonation on all notes was noticeably more varied.
What has me confused is how can my Greenline clarinet's intonation change so much between home and school. I know for a fact that temperature differences are part of the problem, but it can't possibly be all of the problem, since Greenline instruments aren't as susceptible to temperature-related changes as traditional grenadilla wood clarinets are. Does anyone have any ideas as to what else could be affecting the pitch? I've maintained the same set-up (same reed, ligature, etc.) to eliminate all variables within my control.
By the way, I'm new here. A little background, I've been playing for 4 1/2 years and am currently in high school. I have two clarinets. One is a 4 1/2 year-old Buffet E11 Bb clarinet which I now use for marching band and at all the crazy pep rallies. The second is a 1-year-old Buffet R13 Greenline Bb clarinet. I look forward to getting to know everyone.
~Bandie
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-02-16 00:44
Greenlines are affected by temperature in regard to pitch. There is no escaping the changing density of air.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BandieSF
Date: 2008-02-16 02:02
I know that through both experience and the research I did before deciding to get a Greenline. What I'm seeing is a very drastic change that I don't see in my E11, which isn't Greenline. That is what really has me puzzled. This tuning problem is only on my Greenline instrument.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-02-16 02:51
Do a side-by-side test with both clarinets in the same room. Temperature is more important than you may think. When I check for pitch I have 2 thermometers in the room.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BandieSF
Date: 2008-02-16 02:56
Nothing has changed mouthpiece-wise, but I have been transitioning to Legere reeds after a few annoyances with Vandoren reeds. Other than that, nothing has changed. But I don't think that is part of the problem because this problem has existed since I got the instrument.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BandieSF
Date: 2008-02-16 03:44
I actually did that last night now that you mention it. Being in marching band, I know all too well the effects of temperature on clarinet, or any instrument for that matter. I've been told that by everyone from my lesson teacher to my section leader. But yeah, I've done a side-by-side test in the same room, same mouthpiece, same warm-up method and length, same reed, as much controlled consistency as I had control over. I did get better tuning on both instruments with the R13 barrel, but I didn't check lower register on the E11 (I did on the R13 and the longer barrel was much better in tune). I've done many side-by-side tests with the two barrels and their tuning tendencies on the R13 more than the E11 because the E11 hasn't had tuning issues like the R13 is exhibiting. The only thing I've found hard to do is find a chance to do the same tuning test in the band hall.
EDIT: Just noticed the "Edit My Post" link... Sorry I didn't do that for this one to add to my previous one.
-----
Current set-up:
Classical:
Strength 4 1/4 Legere Signature Series
Vandoren M13 Lyre
Jazz:
Strength 3 3/4 Legere Quebec
Pomarico Jazz*
Clarinets:
Buffet E11 Student Model
Buffet R13 Greenline
<http://operationhighschool.blogspot.com
Post Edited (2008-02-16 03:46)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: C2thew
Date: 2008-02-16 06:39
the important thing is this: are you in tune with your section/band? if you aren't, this would be the issue. however when you are playing outside, it doesn't make sense to be "in tune" unless you want to be sharper than everyone else on the field. the important thing is that you tune with the group. When you have a stable temperature to perform duets, then focus your intonation moreso.
hope that helps, i kinda lost my train of thought
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-02-16 13:32
So let me get this straight... you play your E11 at home and at school and the pitch is the same in both places. Then, you play your R13 Greenline at home and at school, but the pitch at home is good and the pitch at school is flat.
Do I have it right???
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-02-16 16:27
I'm not that familiar with the E11 model but I'm willing to bet that the bore of that barrel is different from the one on your R13. Even then, every barrel is slightly different. The only reason I can possibly think of that the same clarinet with the same equipment is in tune in one place and very flat in another is temperature of the instrument, barrel or MP. The only other plausible reason is the player. If you're using the same reed and MP then you might not be supporting the same way at school as you do at home. I've heard that some barrels will play differently when in different positions but I think that's a long shot.
The reason why most professionals change to other barrels, Backuns, Meonnigs etc is that the bore of the standard R13 barrel is very opened and does not have enough of a difference from the top to bottom but that's different for every player and different equipment. Other then the above mention, I can't think of a single reason that a clarinet would play flat in one place and in tune in another. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BandieSF
Date: 2008-02-16 18:50
C2thew- My pitch on my R13 with its own barrel is flat compared to the band and to the 440 tuning, since everyone ends up tuning to the tuner or the tuning CD (which drones a concert F 5th chord).
skygardener- Sort of, my E11's pitch is all over the place, but that's because 1: it's the beginner model I used all through middle school and therefore not as reliable as my R13, not to mention those clarinets are always very sharp without pulling out at the barrel, 2: it's not Greenline and therefore more susceptible to temperature-related pitch changes. My R13 is just as varied in terms of pitch when I use the shorter barrel from my E11.
One other solution I had thought of in the middle of band class was to get a third barrel that is longer than the E11 barrel but shorter than the R13 barrel. Just a thought, though.
Palanker- Yes, the bore is indeed different between the E11 and R13. The E11 is a student model and therefore didn't get the same sound as I could on the R13 without a more-than-decent reed. I don't know what is different between the two, but they are definitely different because I can hear a minor sound difference between the two barrels (with the R13 barrel having the clearer more resonant sound). Again, I had started to consider a different barrel altogether. In fact my lesson teacher in 8th grade started to suggest that to me, but never got around to telling me which one to get, nor would I have understood the difference back then or even cared. But that was before I got the R13 and therefore was still on my beginner instrument.
EEBaum- No, but that might be something I'll try to do. I've had my lesson teacher try my R13 at school, but it was in one of the stuffy practice rooms, which is a completely different environment from either home or the band hall.
I started to consider the possibility of humidity, but kind of dismissed that thought because humidity probably has more effect on the cane reeds than the intonation of a clarinet, right? Or does humidity affect intonation even with a plastic reed?
EDIT: I've found the lengths of my two barrels if it sheds any light:
E11 Barrel- 64mm
R13 Barrel- 66mm
If I were to get a different barrel that was between those two lengths...
1: Would that maybe solve the problem?
2: What barrel would you recommend?
EDIT (again)- I've been looking on the net at other barrels that are 65mm and stumbled across the Clark W Fobes Hardwood Clarinet Barrel as well as a Ridenour Ivorlone Clarinet Barrel on Woodwind & Brasswind. Has anyone had any experience with these?
-----
Current set-up:
Classical:
Strength 4 1/4 Legere Signature Series
Vandoren M13 Lyre
Jazz:
Strength 3 3/4 Legere Quebec
Pomarico Jazz*
Clarinets:
Buffet E11 Student Model
Buffet R13 Greenline
<http://operationhighschool.blogspot.com
Post Edited (2008-02-16 20:57)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2008-02-16 20:32
If I may suggest this,
maybe try moving away from the M13 Lyre. The M13s are not made to traditional Vandoren pitch; rather they are made to "American Pitch". I suggest you might want to try the M15. The reason why you might not be flat on the e11 is because the e11 is built to A442 to accommodate student pitch tendencies, therefore the barrel being 64.5mm. The R13 barrel in the USA is 66.5 set already to a440
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BandieSF
Date: 2008-02-16 20:44
Never thought about that. Maybe because I've used the same set-up for both instruments because it worked for my E11. Though I must say I'd rather be flat than sharp because I find it far easier to raise any given pitch than it is to lower one without sacrificing the sound quality.
And it is true that I've been on the M13 Lyre since 8th grade, and my playing has improved and evolved drastically since then. I've got a 5RV Lyre (I think...) at home that I used during seventh grade, as well as the stock mouthpieces that came with the two clarinets.
-----
Current set-up:
Classical:
Strength 4 1/4 Legere Signature Series
Vandoren M13 Lyre
Jazz:
Strength 3 3/4 Legere Quebec
Pomarico Jazz*
Clarinets:
Buffet E11 Student Model
Buffet R13 Greenline
<http://operationhighschool.blogspot.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-02-16 22:30
These are all good suggestion and recommendations but the fact is that you said you played your R13 in tune; I assume A 440, at home and could not play that pitch at school even after being warmed up. If it were the mouthpiece wouldn’t it be the same wherever you are? I never heard of a MP being in tune in one place and out of tune in another. Now that I know what you use as a reed I am suspecting that it is the reed. When I tried those reeds I found it difficult to keep the pitch steady. Of course many players do so I’m not putting the reed down, I’m just suggesting that it can’t be the mouthpiece or anything else if it is if fact in tune in one place and out of tune in another. We travel to many places with the BSO and humidity and temperature play a large part in a lot of things but we don’t all of a son play flat in one hall and not the other, unless of course it’s very cold or the clarinet is very cold. Can you imagine orchestra players being flat in one hall and not the other? We learn to deal with it. You should probably stick to a 66mm barrel; I use a 67 on both my R13s because that’s what I need to play in tune. Different for everyone. There are a great many good barrels out there, I prefer the Backun barrels but many of my students use the Moennig too. A few use the Chadash as well, and of course there are other good ones as well. Look for pitch first, then tone and feel. Every one is different, even with the same manufactures. Every piece of wood is different and no two measure exactly the same on the inside, go figure. Try several of the same manufacture. Good luck, ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2008-02-16 22:41
I forgot to mention in my previous post that sometimes the same thing happens to me. I'll play in tune at home and not at school. What I've realized is that I can't really tune myself whenever the whole band is playing chords etc even if I am using a pickup. To tune myself, I have to play alone and only then will the tuner give me the correct pitch.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BandieSF
Date: 2008-02-16 23:12
Yeah, with the different pitch adjustment requirements of each note in any given chord, you can't really judge whether you're in-tune at 440 (or 442, whichever applies).
I do agree, Palanker, that I don't think the MP has anything to do with it. If it were, it would do the same thing on my E11, which it doesn't. My lesson teacher has told me that his experience with Legeres (just the regular, not the Quebecs; he hasn't tried those before) is that they play a bit flat. I haven't tested this for myself, so I don't know if it's the same for me, but I don't really plan on going back to cane because of the rarity of a decent reed in any given box and their sensitivity to humidity. But I should also argue that it probably isn't the reed because, like I've said before, this problem has plagued me since I got the instrument, and I've only just recently switched. I've just never decided to address the issue until now.
And yes, I am tuning to A440.
-----
Current set-up:
Classical:
Strength 4 1/4 Legere Signature Series
Vandoren M13 Lyre
Jazz:
Strength 3 3/4 Legere Quebec
Pomarico Jazz*
Clarinets:
Buffet E11 Student Model
Buffet R13 Greenline
<http://operationhighschool.blogspot.com
Post Edited (2008-02-17 00:40)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kilo
Date: 2008-02-17 00:36
>2: it's not Greenline and therefore more susceptible to temperature-related pitch changes.<
I question this, BandieSF. As skygardener pointed out in the very first response, "Greenlines are affected by temperature in regard to pitch. There is no escaping the changing density of air."
What the GreenLines do provide is dimensional stability in all directions; not absorbing moisture and being free of grain-related stresses which can loosen keys and disturb seals, they avoid the damaging effects of the wet-dry cycle, but a cold one will still play flat.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BandieSF
Date: 2008-02-17 00:57
I do know, kilo, any cold clarinet, Greenline or not, will play flat. At one point I did believe that my new Greenline was impervious to temperature, but I know better than that just as well as anyone (and look down upon my silliness and stupidity).
EDIT- I tried as best I could to not make that sound rude. If I failed to do so I apologize deeply. ![[frown]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie2.gif)
EDIT- I'm starting to really consider a 65mm barrel as opposed to the 66mm or 64mm barrels I've got. I'll probably still use the 66mm for solo situations (or any of the three for that matter if the piano isn't in tune ). I mentioned Clark W. Fobes barrels, which I'm strongly considering, but does anyone else have any recommendations for other barrels I can try? I understand that for the most part the choice is personal taste, but advice on what to avoid and what to look for will be appreciated.
-----
Current set-up:
Classical:
Strength 4 1/4 Legere Signature Series
Vandoren M13 Lyre
Jazz:
Strength 3 3/4 Legere Quebec
Pomarico Jazz*
Clarinets:
Buffet E11 Student Model
Buffet R13 Greenline
<http://operationhighschool.blogspot.com
Post Edited (2008-02-17 18:22)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: LesterV
Date: 2008-02-17 19:54
FWIW, the effect of temperature on tuning is due almost entirely to the change in sound speed of the air within the bore rather than the horn's dimensional changes. The temperature coefficient of expansion of the typical wood, parallel to the grain, is about 5 parts per million (PPM) or .0005% per deg. C. This is quite small and less than most other materials including most metals. Although its about 10 times greater across the grain, its still less than hard rubber (84 PPM/deg C) and most resins. Assuming grenadilla is similar to other woods, the change in tuning due to the change in the air's sound speed is about 360 times greater than that due to the change in the length of the instrument. Thus the effect of the dimensional changes on tuning is insignificant compared to the that due to changes in air temperature.
Additionally, we all know that a cold horn is flat and increasing its length makes it worse. Warming the instrument increases its length which would make it even more flat if it were not for the much greater effect of the increase in sound speed causing the horn to go sharp.
Also it is strictly temperature, not air density that effects tuning - which is a good thing. Otherwise changes in air density due to changes in atmospheric pressure or elevation would make it impossible to tune your instrument. An A played in Boston would become a C in Denver!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BandieSF
Date: 2008-02-17 20:33
I think I needed that extra bit of humor after being serious all weekend. Hopefully I won't run into tuning issues at UIL Solo and Ensemble next weekend. After last weekend's school-wide Solo and Ensemble, I'll probably be on my 66mm barrel (I was sharp at the event last week) unless mom emails my lesson teacher asking if I can go ahead and try a Fobes barrel. My only worry is going to be how the heck will I tune myself in the noisy warm-up room, which will probably end up being a cafeteria or gym that echoes a ton! Eep! Ah, well, can't always have it your way. Such is life...
-----
Current set-up:
Classical:
Strength 4 1/4 Legere Signature Series
Vandoren M13 Lyre
Jazz:
Strength 3 3/4 Legere Quebec
Pomarico Jazz*
Clarinets:
Buffet E11 Student Model
Buffet R13 Greenline
<http://operationhighschool.blogspot.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sdr
Date: 2008-02-18 05:25
Any chance it's the Legere plastic reed that is so susceptible to effects of temperature?
-sdr
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-02-18 06:10
Ya...I'm in the same position as you. In fact I too have an E-11 and R-13, but not a Greenline. I have the same tuning issues on my R-13. Its crazy, I'm even experimenting with longer barrels, different shaped barrels, barrels with/without tenon rings. Im usualy a good 10-15 cents sharp on anything above B in the staff when i'm pushed in all the way. Yet I'm flat on anything below a B below the staff. My tuning changes between settings too. I think its just some inherent problem in the R13 design. I'm sure there is a cure to these problems though.
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2008-02-18 22:14
i had this problem aswell before. and for me it wasn't the clarinet but me!
depending on the condition of my emboshure-muscles the pitch varied a lot from time to time. sometimes biting it up. and sometimes not awake enough to get a good hold and was way low.
maybe its because you are playing at home AFTER school when you are more tired?!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BandieSF
Date: 2008-02-19 00:25
sdr- No, I don't think so. I've used the Legeres on my E11 and there was no tuning problem. I'm starting to think that the 66mm R13 barrel is too long for me for the band hall and the 64mm E11 barrel is a wee bit short. Before any warm-up whatsoever, if I use the E11 barrel on my R13 and I'm playing in the band hall (like I was this morning at sectionals), pushed in all the way I'm smack dab on A440. And that's when the instrument's still cold!
Ryder & pelo- Yeah, the other clarinetist in the section who plays an R13 uses her E11 barrel as well. I think Buffet should start selling their R13's with 65mm stock barrels rather than 66mm! ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
-----
Current set-up:
Classical:
Strength 4 1/4 Legere Signature Series
Vandoren M13 Lyre
Jazz:
Strength 3 3/4 Legere Quebec
Pomarico Jazz*
Clarinets:
Buffet E11 Student Model
Buffet R13 Greenline
<http://operationhighschool.blogspot.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: claritoot26
Date: 2008-02-21 15:18
Several years ago, I used Legere Quebec reeds on my M13 Lyre mouthpiece, mostly for outdoor summer concerts. I found that the strengths of those reeds ran stiffer than Vandoren V12, which I normally use. A too-hard reed can make the pitch lower, depending on how you're voicing. Have you tried going down in strength on the Legere Quebec? Say a 3 3/4?
Also, on a side note: if you are using your wooden E-11 for outdoor marching band in cool weather, you'll ruin it.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BandieSF
Date: 2008-02-23 00:10
When I first tried Legere's reeds, I went for the standards first. I got a couple 4's and found them to be too soft, so I went up a strength when I got the Quebec's. I also pulled out my best surviving cane reed for comparison and found tuning to be fairly similar in the same conditions.
In response to the side note, I've been careful to meticulously monitor the temperature to make sure it stays close to an agreeable temperature. Not to mention that it's warm for the large majority of the marching season here in Texas, so only a few games at the end of the season end up being cold enough to cause concern.
You could probably say that I treat my E11 like I would an R13, and I treat my R13 like it's my life.
-----
Current set-up:
Classical:
Strength 4 1/4 Legere Signature Series
Vandoren M13 Lyre
Jazz:
Strength 3 3/4 Legere Quebec
Pomarico Jazz*
Clarinets:
Buffet E11 Student Model
Buffet R13 Greenline
<http://operationhighschool.blogspot.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
