 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Mark Horne
Date: 2008-02-12 22:57
My community concert band is playing an arrangement of Copland's Old American Songs.
The BBb contrabass part has a section with syncopated stacatto mid-staff B naturals. On my Leblanc 340 paperclip I'm finding that this note attacks very slowly and I'm having difficulty getting the note to speak cleanly. I can go an octave above or below without a problem, but that's not a solution.
I've noticed that several of these lower clarion notes seem to be slow on the attack with the B being the worst. When attacking notes in this range I detect a bit of chuffing from the register vent before the note speaks. I've had an assistant hold down the various pad cups to ensure a good seal, and I've also worked with the adjustment screw that balances the two register pads - I can get some improvement but then the upper clarion notes begin to suffer.
Has anyone encountered and successfully addressed this condition or is it just a limitation of the instrument?
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2008-02-13 01:55
The adjustments on this instrument are very finicky. Even the slightest leak can through off the partials. When I read: "I've also worked with the adjustment screw that balances the two register pads -"
that made me a bit queezy. The balance between the two can't be compromised.
jbutler
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2008-02-13 15:56
Mark -
The middle B on a BBb contra is a bit slow in response, but what you describe is not right. You almost certainly have a leak someplace. Even if the pads are seated perfectly, you could have a ding in the tone hole rim, or a cracked solder joint where the tone hole is soldered to the body, or in one of the joints along the body, or a pinhole in the body somewhere.
Try using a softer reed, which will respond more easily. You should use the softest reed that doesn't make a flapping sound on the low notes. Also, all contra reeds warp down the middle, which makes the response poor. Finally, you need to put the tip of the reed slightly higher than the mouthpiece tip. I've posted several times about this, for example at http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2001/06/000500.txt.
If you can't find the problem, or can't get it fixed in time for the concert, switch to an Eb contra. The first space F# will respond immediately. Or have the bass clarinetist play low B.
Ken Shaw
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2008-02-13 18:20
I don't understand why composers demand contras to play anything above the break, it's like asking sumo wrestlers to run a marathon. Sure it's possible, but It's not built for that and painful for the audience.
Post Edited (2008-02-13 22:18)
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2008-02-13 18:59
Use a lot of mouthpiece with only enough firm lips, a relatively hard reed like 3, not softer than 2½. Drop your jaw to a maximum and allow a lot of air in the cavity. Never squeeze, let the reed flow. Don’t try to tame it as much as you would with a Bb-clar. Treat it more like a terrier dog. You have to do what IT wants, not necessarily always what you want yourself to keep it happy.
A similar problem like the one you describe occurs at E5 where the speaker keys swap. The reason for this is that the speaker holes are too small for the length of the tube up to the point of the note E vs. B. That’s one of the compromises we have to live with as woodwind players.
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Author: nahoj
Date: 2008-02-13 20:07
I have a similar problem on my Leblanc 340: difficulty to speak B to D and -- perhaps unrelated -- some noise (hiss / buzz) at the E (and to a lower extend the F) above the break. On the 350, there is no problem at all, so I would say they're both an adjustment problem.
I did the same as Mark: have an assistant check for leaks by pressing the pads to kill small leaks. No luck there.
I haven't had time yet to further look into it, but I think I found the cause for the noise: the air blowing into the pad of the opened first register key creates the buzz. When I (we) hold someting in between the hole and the pad to deviate the air away from the pad into 'open space', the buzz disappears. I assume the air pressure on the opening is highest at E and probably the pad doesn't open far enough. However, I don't dare to just like that start playing with the register adjustment... (Also had no time for it.)
Concerning the difficulty to speak, I also suspect the register system: it's like there's some spring not pressing hard enough because I feel the air resistance 'vibrating' and 'settling' too slowly when starting the note. Do you have the same problem, Mark?
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Author: Bubalooy
Date: 2008-02-13 21:02
can you use an alternate fingering? a shorter fingering would probably respond faster.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2008-02-13 21:41
Bubalooy -
Unfortunately, the Leblanc contras don't have till keys, so there's no alternate fingering for third-line B.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Mark Horne
Date: 2008-02-17 05:36
Sounds like good advice from everyone.
Ken - I'll look for other sources of leaks besides the pads, the horn is in good shape but it's over 35 years old and there can certainly be small cracks or gaps that I haven't noticed. Also the idea of switching to contra alto is a good one - I do have a Leblanc 350 EEb paperclip as well, and I use it for some concerts. Since I play french horn when there is no contra part I have to choose one contra or the other for a given concert. Since there was more BBb music for this program (and it uses the lower range) I'm trying to stick with the BBb horn.
Johan - you may be onto something with the register pads. I can hear the slightest mechanical clicking or ticking sound when I attack the note - this sound preceeds the onset of the note. I haven't been able to locate the noise precisely, but it sounds like it's coming from the general direction of the register mechanisms. The extra pressure of the long B may temporarily displace the upper register pad and cause the delay.
I'll continue to look into this. . .
Thanks, Mark
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Author: Clark W Fobes
Date: 2008-02-18 15:36
Mark,
There is a lot of good advice here. I own the same model contra that you use and I recognize the problem. If your horn comes apart at the middle joint for storage purposes, you must make certain that the little wing nut that holds the sections together is locked in each time. Even if you do not have to take it apart be certain that the connection is very tight. The slightest movement at that joint will upset the delicate adjustment of the double register mechanism.
Let's assume that your horn is covering well and in good adjustment. There are two things that you can do. If your horn has a low C extension and you do not need a Low D, C# or C try removing the extension. I find that this helps the B natural quite a bit. Years ago I made a "D" bell for my instrument and I use this if I do not need the low C. The entire instrument plays much better with this bell. I guess I should make a few of these for general consumption.
Now, to "blow my own horn" a bit. The mouthpiece is extremely important to the overall response of the contra and in particular to the B natural - E which are the most problematic areas of the instrument. As you might imagine, as a mouthpiece maker and someone who plays the contra a lot (I am the bass clarinet/contra chair at the Skywalker Ranch orchestra and the guy who gets called for all of the contra work in the SF Opera and SF Symphony) I have tried a good variety of facings for contra bass.
It is my opinion that most contra mouthpieces are faced too open and too long. My facing is more like a very open bass clarinet mouthpiece (2.10mm - 2.20mm) and works best with a #3 Van Doren reed. This allows for more agility between registers. I have also found that a slightly asymmetrical facing promotes superb responses in the low register and an infinite ppp.
Good luck!
Clark
Clark W Fobes - Clarinet & Saxophone Products
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Author: Mark Horne
Date: 2008-02-22 01:06
Clark,
It's great to get some input from a pro - I imagine that there are only a handful of players out there that have played the contra in a professional setting - and really understand the inner workings of the wonderful Leblanc beast!
It's an interesting idea to remove the low C extension in order to improve the mid-line B response (I seem to recall reading some earlier posts that confirm this approach - Ken perhaps?). My low C extension does not readily come off - I doubt the previous owner ever had cause to remove it - so I won't be able to try that at this time. And as chance would have it, the Copland piece extends to the low C# (although only briefly).
I have been suspecting that the mouthpiece-reed combination would play an important role in the repsonse of the lower clarion - especially as I see that other posters have had similar difficulties with the range. Of the three Leblanc mouthpieces I have (one new, one old, and one Vito that won't work with Vandoren reeds), each responds differently.
I will be contacting you offline regarding mouthpiece solutions. Other than a couple of factory offerings, it looks like you and Walter Grabner are the only folks specializing in contra mouthpieces.
Thanks, Mark
Post Edited (2008-02-22 01:07)
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