 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: rollercoastermike
Date: 2008-02-03 05:15
I've read and been told a lot that part of the back sides of my tongue should reach up to my molars so that I can get better tone. However, when I try, I can't articulate at all.
Does anyone not play with tongue against molars because their structure doesn't allow them to? Just wondering if maybe I'm one of those... it seems so awkward to keep the tongue so high.
Last question: with what degree should they be against the molars? Very firmly or not?
Thanks!
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2008-02-03 09:23
You’ll probably get loads of theoretic dissertations onwards for this post. You’ll hear about “hissing cats” and other things to twist your tongue to the “perfect” shape.
I’ve only seen one description in text that I trust, from Frederic Thurston’s book “Clarinet Technique”, the only natural approach and also the simplest:
...."Now try to find out which part of the tongue will contact the tip of the reed most easily. While the tongue lies relaxed in the mouth its tip can be felt just behind the bottom teeth. When you put the mouthpiece into your mouth the tongue must merely be but slightly forward and upward to make contact with the reed.
You will probably feel the reed (and perhaps the tip of the mouthpiece) 'cutting' across your tongue about 1/4 to 1/2 inch away from its tip. I consider this the normal position for most players"...
From this position, find the shortest way, …”the tongue must merely be but slightly forward and upward to make contact with the reed”… ,that is also the quickest.
There is actually nothing more to it than this. Forget molars and cats. It’s better to be able to articulate than not.
Alphie
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-02-05 02:09
Hi, there are two dominant theories on tongue position. Probably more. Both begin with the tongue somewhere about the molars. I teach my students to place the back of the tongue so that it is touching or between the upper molars, depending on the size of the tongue and comfort. Then one theory is to keep the tongue very high so you tongue the very tip of the reed, I don't adhere to this because it causes either one to choke, as in your case, or to get a thin bright tone because there is not enough air passing through the small space created by the tongue being so high. I teach to have the tongue up or between the upper molars but to keep the front of the tongue in a comfortable position and not up so high so that the tongue curves slightly down towards the front of the mouth. As close to the reed as possible so the tip of the tongue, or near the tip as possible, touches the reed near the tip, but not necessary at the very tip. It can be slightly below the tip and still be very efficient. I think it's most important to hit the reed with a light stroke and as little movement as possible and you need to be comfortable to do that. Try it and see if this works for you.
ESP
peabody.jhu.edu/457
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2008-02-05 16:31
Dear Mr. Palanker,
Thank you for your input in this question.
I did want to know how you would respond to those who might suggest that any raising of the tongue would necessarily block some percentage of air flow and therefore inhibit the greatest amount of air through the horn as possible.
What comes to mind is John Yeh's advice about "open throat," which was that it is in reality "closed throat" since the back of the tongue occludes a percentage of the throat in this posture.
Seems kinda sorta like the other side of the "molar position" to me.
.......thanks,
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2008-02-05 19:00
Dear Mr. Palanker! With all the respect to your impressive C.V. and your prestigious teaching job, the wisest thing you said in your post was the words “probably more”. There are numbers of “methods”, if you so want that do not include the tongue anchored to the molars at all. The “molar” methods work the best when playing the recorder or the flute but even then there are non molar alternatives, like playing with a “long” tongue not anchored to the molars.
On these instruments you can vary attacks freely with great sensitivity because the tip of the tongue touches the very sensitive part of the palate right behind the front teeth. When playing the clarinet, oboe or bassoon you’re using a ¼ inch of material in your mouth that changes the position of the tongue to a low tip-high back position that reduces the air flow drastically. Also, touching the reed with the tip as when the tongue is anchored to the molars only give you one type of attack, tip-to-reed, on-off, start-stop and that’s it.
The molar methods only work given that the player’s best and quickest move with the tongue is the flip-flap/up-down move with the tip, not if the best/quickest move is forth-and-back. In my opinion the best attack when playing the clarinet is the one mentioned in my earlier post, described by Frederic Thurston. A naturally relaxed tongue resting in its natural position when at work “must merely be but slightly forward and upward to make contact with the reed.” It can’t be anything wrong with that.
Alphie
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-02-06 21:53
This is my third reply, for some reason they are not getting posted so I’ll try again to answer Paul and Alphie. I stand by my original post. I say nothing about “cats” never heard of that. I also don’t say anything about “anchoring” the tongue at the molars. Please read my post again and you will see that it is not much different from the Thurston quote concerning the front of the tongue. I only state that the back of the tongue should be between or “NEAR” the upper molars, not anchored, not far up just simply NEAR or between, that’s all. It has nothing to do with keeping your throat opened. Unless you have your tongue far up in the molars, which I do not suggest, you can still keep your throat opened and keep the air flowing freely. The throat should always be opened. This is the way my teacher Leon Russianoff helped me develop my tonguing. Joe Allard tried to get me to raise my entire tongue even higher but backed off when I sounded choked and could not tongue quickly and when I took several lessons from Marcellus and Gigliotti either one mentioned anything about tonguing the wrong way. I have been very successful in my teaching method and I believe in not messing with success. And just so you know, I don’t change anyone unless there is a problem with speed or clarity. I don’t fix something that ain’t broke. ESP
Peabody.jhu.edu/457
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2008-02-07 13:51
I’m only saying that locking yourself up with ONE method limits both yourself and the students. I think what happens inside your mouth is to the biggest part something that you have to figure out yourself by feeling and listening, encouraged by the teacher or you’ll end up with the same confusion as rollercoastermike. Here I must suggest starting with the tongue in the normal, relaxed position.
As a curiosity I can mention a girl I know in Germany. She tongues with the bottom side of the tongue, touching the reed with the tip underneath the tongue. She has a beautiful attack and a great career as an orchestra and chamber musician. Maybe she wouldn’t have had that with your method?
Alphie
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-02-07 18:11
Dear Alphie, if you read my posts you will see it says, " I don't fix it if it isn’t broke." I don't know how much more clearer I can say that if a student is tonguing well, can tongue fast and clean and make a good staccato, than I don't try to change them. I really don't understand what you don't understand about that but I don't intend to keep giving you the same answer. I don't change something if it's working well, period! I'm sorry you are not getting my point. ESP
PS. You need to read the article on the last Clarinet Journal by Joseph Eller, you will really be upset. Though a great many fine players and teachers think and play this way I just want you to know that I DO NOT ADVOCATE having the tongue this high, especially in the front. Just to make sure you understand me, I do not teach this way even if the student is having a problem. I experiment until I find what's best for the STUDENT, even if it's like your friend in Germany. If it sounds good, is fast and clean I would not change her, period. Good-bye and good luck!
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2008-02-07 20:07)
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2008-02-07 20:18
>I teach to have the tongue up or between the upper molars but to keep the front of the tongue in a comfortable position and not up so high so that the tongue curves slightly down towards the front of the mouth. As close to the reed as possible so the tip of the tongue, or near the tip as possible, touches the reed near the tip, but not necessary at the very tip.<
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>While the tongue lies relaxed in the mouth its tip can be felt just behind the bottom teeth. When you put the mouthpiece into your mouth the tongue must merely be but slightly forward and upward to make contact with the reed.<
I would pick the one where I get the point.
Alphie
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2008-02-09 18:32
Since Ed Palanker already said good bye maybe someone else can explain to me:
I have understood that for some reason most American teachers teach a high tongue position including more or less contact with the upper molars. As those who have read this thread may understand, I don’t agree with this at all, simply because I can’t understand the benefits. I only see a risk to choke the air flow. According to some theory, the high tongue position is supposed to speed up the air by squeezing a large amount of air through a narrow passage. This is not true because like this the air slows down before it reaches the mouthpiece.
To reach a good result with air speed through the mouthpiece you have to think of the cavity as a funnel or a cone (see attachments). You have to cut off as late as possible. On a clarinet this can only be done keeping the back low if anything, using firm lips, touching the reed with the tongue at the very point where the reed cross the tongue a ¼-½ inch from the tip. I can’t imagine a more natural starting point for most people.
What are the benefits with a high tongue/touching molars?
Alphie
Post Edited (2008-02-09 18:33)
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2008-02-09 18:34
Attachment: TougueNo.jpg (41k)
Attachment: Tougueyes.jpg (43k)
The attachments. The illustrations are for brass players. The tongue in "Tongueyes" is tilted too far back for clarinet playing. Only so you get the idea.
Post Edited (2008-02-09 18:42)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-02-09 21:19
Hi Alphie.
I wasn't taught anything about tongue position by my teachers. But I do find that I move my tongue depending on which register I'm playing in. For the higher register the back of my tongue does lift up into an "eee" type position. If I don't do this then the notes around B5 and C6 are flat, and the altissimo notes don't come out at all. I find my tongue lowering for the "longer" tones and the low register.
As i said- this isn't something I was taught. It's just what my tongue does naturally to voice the notes the way i want them.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2008-02-10 16:35
Hello Liquorice.
I wasn’t taught anything either. They don’t seem to talk about this so much here in Europe and I think that’s for a good reason the more I’m thinking about it. I think the attitude here is to let the students find out themselves what work the best for them. The teacher is there more as a guide and as long as it looks good and sounds good there is no reason to interfere. After a short basic introduction such as the one Thurston gives, the teacher only have to make sure it doesn’t derail. And as far as spontaneous changes in the cavity or tongue position when playing in different registers is concerned is absolutely natural. Different registers require variations, its pure physical laws. There is no such thing as ONE embouchure for all registers. The mouth and everything that happens inside when playing is very dynamic and should be let developing as freely as possible. Only the ear can decide what’s right or wrong.
Alphie
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-02-10 17:41
"as long as it looks good and sounds good there is no reason to interfere"
"The mouth and everything that happens inside when playing is very dynamic and should be let developing as freely as possible"
Alphie, as usual I agree with you! :-) I actually saw this happening a few years ago when a doctor firend of mine and some other wind players did an experiment with an endoscope inside the mouthpiece. We made a very short film about this for Swiss TV. Besides seeing and being amazed at how the tongue moves for staccato, I was also surprised to see all the acrobatics that goes on to produce the notes in different registers. (At least with my own tongue- ,aybe I'm doing something wrong??!!) The doctor was also very suprised to see that the epiglotis is also used to produce different notes.
This wasn't a scientific experiment. More just fooling around to have a look inside the mouth. They even shoved the thing through my nose to get a view from the back looking forwards!!
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Author: donald
Date: 2008-02-10 18:15
I have studied with a teacher who was very big on "high tongue position" and it revolutionised my playing. However when it comes to my own students i have found that "verbal instruction" on tongue position is not often helpful.
Here's MY ten cents....
The tongue position is high enough IF....
- you can articulate ANY note without the sound/pitch "scooping" or making the "cukoo" sound.
- you can slur from top line F to the throat tones and maintain the focus in your sound (without moving your embochure, disrupting the airflow and/or accidentally overblowing).
I believe that having an open and relaxed throat helps the "body" of the sound and that the high tongue position helps the "shape/focus" of the sound. Therefore i always find look for places to check out the "throat A to B" slur....
- An open throat helps attain quality tone on B (middle line), but the tongue needs to be high to get a focussed sound on A. I also find B is very sensitive to a "biting embochure" when articulation is required. So, ARTICULATING a B, sustaining the tone, then slurring it down to A is a good test of....
- tongue position
- throat tension
- embochure
.... a more advanced version of this test would be slurring from top line F to throat A.
With more advanced students i will give more precise instruction if needed, but i've actually found this "result orientated" approach, rather than "complicated verbal instruction", to work very well and produce a good result.
dn
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Author: graham
Date: 2008-02-11 07:16
I suspect the high (or "back-lying") tongue position is something that has come more common over recent decades. The idea form c.1960 backwards was to play with "open throat". Of course, this is a very difficult concept to grasp since the throat itself is more or less rigid. The most likely meaning is that the back of the oral cavity is allowed to open most freely into the throat. To achieve that you have to push the tongue forward in the mouth rather than back. If you try that, then you find the sound getting closer to that of players who pre-dated the 1960s or so. To my ear, you still find that kind of sound reasonably prevalent with German style influenced players. This can, indeed, produce some fairly weird effects in the altissimo register. Some adjustment for register would probably be the best approach.
This approach does not preclude good tonguing, but the tip of the tongue is less likely to engage, but rather a part of it a little below the tip.
I think that the US style of playing has moved away from this (I have not listened to Bonade, which is something I should rectify, so I cannot say whether it sounds like he did use this tongue position), and the sound is noticeably different to the throaty kind of sound which used to prevail in Europe. Most European styles have moved away from it also, but in that time there has also been a move to more open mouthpiece facings and generally higher dynamic pressures, and these considerations must have changed the apparent ideal sound production approach. Note that Thurston played on a close facing mouthpiece. My guess is that the sound is likely to be easier to control with a higher tongue position and this factor created the migration. But playing on a closer facing set up required players to maximise the depth of resonance so they played with the tongue further forward.
All this is determined from listening. As far as I know, there are no texts which make this point absolutely clear.
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Author: donald
Date: 2008-02-11 17:37
i agree that "open throat" is not a good description of what i'm describing, and right now i am very short on time for a response.
How about "relaxed throat"?- this is quite possible with a high tongue position, and in fact my original "high tongue position teacher" (who also taught GBK many years ago) never used these words ("play with an open throat" etc) but would often emphasise ending a note with "Air" so that the throat was not closing up at the end of the tone (and therefore incorrectly prepared for the next tone).
just a quick reply- off to work now...
dn
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2008-02-12 18:09
I feel a truly open throat concept works provided it does not encumber the process which requires the tongue to move...
a fine passage is the phrase that finishes the first statement in the Mozart Clarinet Concerto Mvt. 3..you know the 6/8 bit which players practice unrelentingly in Campus' world over.
The tongue still has to be light but not so heavy as to slow down the run...I think a snug embouchure and close tongue position helps greatly here.
Also some teachers forget it requires a great amount of physical energy to maintain a clean quick tongue action....adrenaline helps too. The player must also have to react to the different pressures involved here and still remain mentally calm.
David Dow
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