 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2008-02-05 18:16
Hey all,
I have read about this a little here on the BB, but before I sell my Prestige Eb due to its brittle sound, I would like to know your experiences. I don't play my E flat very often, and just recently I repadded it with Valentinos. It seals like a bottle, but in comparison to an old R13 from the 70s, it just sounds like a toy. The old R13 is robust and more clarinet-like. Also, the R13 has regular skin pads and leaks like crazy. Honestly I don't remember how my Prestige sounded before the repad or how it compared. I plan on repading the Prestige with regular pads or maybe I should use leather? Not sure. Thoughts?
By the way, I have Valentinos on the lower half of my Bb and A and the tone seems fine, although maybe it too would benefit from regular pads.
Now I am done rambling...
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2008-02-05 18:50
I will get brutally flamed for saying this, but in my opinion the type of pad (independent of all other variables such as how well the pads are seated, their opening heights, etc.) has NO audible effect on the tone quality of a clarinet.
I am wearing my Nomex suit, BB regulars -- have at it!
![[whoa]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie10.gif)
disclaimer: I'm a leather pad junkie, putting them on every size of clarinet, plus oboe and even flute.
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2008-02-05 18:57
David,
But is it at all possible that the surface of the Valentinos can act like those little sound reflectors on sax pads? Or that leather absorbs some of the sound? O only once played a Bb with leather and the tone seemed somewhat cushy.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-02-05 18:58
"I am wearing my Nomex suit"
What type of sound are you hoping to achieve with that? ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
At least according to one bassoon maker, clarinets and bassoons shouldn't be "bottle tight" as opposed to oboes and flutes. So maybe your Eb is sealing too tight? Although personally I never had a problem with a clarinet sealing too tight so I don't know how true that is.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-02-05 19:02
No flames from this quarter, Dave. I agree with you. FWIW, I put Valentinos on my soprano clarinets and I haven't noticed any difference in my sound (including recordings).
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2008-02-05 19:17
Well I am hoping that it is the pads and not my clarinet I don't like. Pads are much cheaper...
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-02-05 19:57
The critical point you allude to is that the skin pads are leaking. This creates a resistance that you may in fact like or just get used to. Maybe try to increase the resistance with the Valentino pads by playing a slightly heavier reed.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: redwine
Date: 2008-02-05 20:13
Hello,
I don't agree with the statement that pads don't make a difference. My clarinet was supplied with Valentinos and I didn't like the sound (even after a touch up job by my repair tech). After he had the time to properly replace the pads with cork and hand-made felt and skin, the sound is much better. If not for the sound, I would definitely prefer the Valentinos for longevity.
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: jwiseman114
Date: 2008-02-05 20:18
I can tell you from a repairman's point of view that I, and most of the repair people that I know, very much dislike Valentino pads. They seal because they are sooo soft and they are forgiving of bad padding and bad tone holes. But who wants a mushy feeling clarinet? I prefer using Kraus pads which are very flat and have very firm felt. It requires a very good tone hole (which can be addressed) and a very level pad but when it's done they come down firm but not loud on the tone hole. If the job is done correctly bladder skin pads seal quite well.
On a pro clarinet, I like to use all cork pads except for the four large cups on the bottom and the ring keys because cork gets a little loud. On my own clarinets I like to use white leather pads on the larger cups because they look so nice but on my Recital, I'm thinking about changing them back to Kraus for the feel.
I would personally be stunned if anybody could actually hear the tonal difference between a Valentino pad and a bladder skin...but I guess anything is possible.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-02-05 20:24
> But is it at all possible that the surface of the Valentinos can act like those
> little sound reflectors on sax pads?
Somehow I don't buy the reflector thing on toneholes that are longer than their diameter. I think the trapped air at in the tonehole (where the pad is) can't escape anywhere, but more air (in form of shock waves) are hammering (well...) against the pad. I would think that the trapped air inside the tone hole won't let anything enter that (comparably narrow) channel. When you play, you don't feel vibrations in your fingertips until you lift them off the tone hole (even by a fraction of a millimeter). But as long as they stay put on the hole?
With a sax it's different - wide and very shallow tone holes (I skip the octave pips), there I see a potential difference in sound with or without a reflector.
--
Ben
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-02-05 22:05
The amount of air one uses has a big effect on sound and different pads DO leak to different degrees.
I have synthetics of my own design and I find a huge difference in resistance from before I made the change 6 months ago.
Playing German clarinets is interesting because there is NO suction due to the kind of leather pad they use (not the same as those in the US).
For your 'toy sound' a different mouthpiece/reed might work with the way your clarinet is now.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-02-06 02:45
Dave, if you don't like the sound of your clarinet changing the pads will not help.
The player may notice a slight difference in the feedback you get but to the listener it will make little or no difference. Perhaps if you went from all hard pads to all soft pads or visa versa, then there might be a bit more difference but if you don't like the tone of you clarinet, try different barrels or mouthpieces, they will make the biggest difference and maybe even the bell. Good luck, ESP
Peabody.jhu.edu/457
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2008-02-06 14:32
Put me in the "hate valentino camp." Repair techs who hear the difference every day can tell you that Valentios are the polar opposite to Gortex pads which often sound too immediate and bright. All other pads sort of fall in between in sound..............sort of.
My big contention is the sound absorbency of the mushy foam (and I speak of the effect from the OPEN keys upon which the air must bounce upon LEAVING the open tone holes) which makes trills (particularly the sidekey trills) sound indistinct.
The overall sound becomes muffled due to this sound absorbing, air stream altering pad. Techs that sing their praises charge you the same amount for an overhaul that takes them one fifth as long to install because Valentinos install so easily (just light glue and a hair dryer). So, wouldn't you endorse a product that made you as much money with half the work?
I hate Valentinos.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2008-02-06 16:10
I believe Ridenour clarinets have synthetic pads. I replace them with cork and leather. Cork pads produce a leak-free upper section, which is essential IMO.
richard smith
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2008-02-06 16:22
I'm with you, David...99.86%.
I wouldn't say ANY change in sound, but certainly not significant enough to matter. Any change you might hear as a player is probably only "localized" to the area very near the instrument, so you may hear some difference, but the audience isn't likely to. (Note that I use lots of qualifiers so I don't get people jumping down my throat, too. Well, not as many, that is.)
One exception to that would be changing from standard pads to those with metal or plastic resonators. My Opus had metal resonators on the large cups on the lower joint, and I could hear a significant difference when it was repadded with standard pads. But, again, whether an audience would have heard that, I don't know.
Let the games begin!
B.
Post Edited (2008-02-06 23:48)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-02-06 17:29
They affect the sound when they constantly stick.......
Notorious for kids playing them. You have to keep your mouth spotless clean as if you have any junk in your saliva, it will stick to the pad for sure and make that sticking sound when the pad is lifted.
B-10's are horrible for that reason alone.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-02-06 21:42
IMO a 100.000% airtight seal is not desirable. If you have a plastic clarinet that has (by definition) no grain and no pores, you'd better choose an ever so slightly porous (such as bladder) padding material. If the clarinet is wooden (porous), a synthetic pad is okay.
Huh? Okay, lemme explain:
Take two flat sheets of glass, place a drop of liquid on one and put the other on top. Separating those two sheets will be rather difficult. If one of the glass sheets is frosted, you can separate them quite easily. Makes sense?
It would be nice if there were two different types of synthetic pads - one for wood and a slightl rougher one for plastic/hard rubber clarinets.
--
Ben
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2008-02-07 00:05
Ben,
Seems to me that, although your point about "sticking" with a complete seal is valid to some extent, two flat surfaces of glass against each other have a great deal more contact area than a pad touching the rim of a tone hole. But the actual difference in sound between "soft" pad and a pad that seals completely may be in how abruptly the seal between pad and tone hole is made or broken.
Seems to me (though I've never tested this or wanted to) that the slight porosity of the pad may make the progression from one pitch to another less abrupt. (Like maybe a nanosecond smear.) Opening or closing a tone hole with a 100% seal pad may be perceived as a "clunk" rather than a smooth progression from one pitch to another.
Mere hypothesizing on my part, though.
B.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-02-07 02:26
Question about richard smith's setup- (not trying to pick on him personally.) cork on the UJ and that givers a good seal and leather on the LJ and that gives...?
I never understood that combination. All leather (leaky) or all cork (air tight) is understandable; why mix? I see it often though- can someone advise to me why this is a good combination?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-02-07 03:28
Pads can seal or partially seal (because of porosity, etc).
Pads may absorb the sound to varying degrees when they are suspended over the open tone holes that sound is emerging from.
They can have a tendency to be noisy or not.
They can have varying tendency to stick to tone holes.
However there is another factor that is often overlooked, which may affect the sound. Sorry - or perhaps just as well! - I don't have the terminology of acoustic engineers to use here, so I use illustrations instead...
If the entire body of a clarinet were made of a pad material, say cork sheet, or membrane-covered felt, it would barely play. This is because the material is not rigid enough to contain (by resisting,) the alternating high/low air pressures in the air column that constitutes the sound we eventually hear.
So we make the clarinet from a rigid material. Now consider the tone holes. If we covered/closed them with an airtight film, say condom latex, then the air would be sealed from leaving the tone holes, BUT this membrane, like the cork body mentioned above, would not contain the fluctuating air pressures in the air column. The vibration of the air would be free to communicate via the membrane, to the outside air.
A good analogy is the way that in electronics, a capacitor 'seals' against the passage of direct current, but allows alternating current to pass.
I imagine that a squishy, springy pad material such as Valentino, acts more like the air-tight film than does a firmer, non-springy material such as the felt in traditional pads, or cork.
This is the only reason why I think that it is possible for a pad material to affect the way an instrument sounds. And if so, which is better is probably only in the mind of the beholder.
I think it should also be added that different pads certainly have a different feel for the player, and human beings are notorious for confusing the senses, for example confusing this different feel, with a different PERCEIVED sound, even if that sound has not actually changed.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-02-07 03:59
Just wanted to mention here that I know of a couple technicians that put a layer or two of nail polish on the pad after it is seated (inside the area of the pad seat and maybe on the outside, too, but not on the seat that touches the hole). According to them, this allows a similar effect to a resonator on a saxophone.
Anyone else try this??
Post Edited (2008-02-07 06:41)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-02-07 13:04
Regarding Skygardener's question of mixing pad types. There are other considerations here.....pad size and whether it is an open or closed key. The larger diameter pads favour more flexible pads for better sealing. Tone holes are generally not of Straubinger tolerances. Closed pads favour cork etc for longevity. ie protection against more water and deep impressions that can occur over time. These factors are independent of tone quality and "feel".
Freelance woodwind performer
Post Edited (2008-02-07 13:06)
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2008-02-07 18:28
Yes, there are electrical analogs for acoustic parameters, and they are of some help in analyzing the clarinet acoustic system, which is extremely complex. Simple anologies exist for the open and closed tone hole. Open is resistive and inductive; firmly closed is capacitive. The main bore is resistive and inductive. Thus the instrument is a network of the above, plus other parameters for undercutting, edge effects, and varying bore diameter. Bonade and others since, have done considerable analytical work. The frequency response of the instrument lends itself more to direct measurement and experimentation. Wonderful research projects for all who are interested.
richard smith
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Author: Neal Raskin
Date: 2008-02-07 20:40
Forgive me for not responding to the above posts.
What kind of quality are Valentino pads vs. Cork vs. Bladder Skin vs. Gortex?
I purchased a new R13 in October and half of the pads were new (valentino pads) and half were the original bladder skin pads. This was a horn that must have been sent around to other people before myself because some pads were new and some were old. I am in the proccess of getting a repad right now of cork and bladder skin pads.
Neal
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Author: Firebird
Date: 2008-02-08 01:35
IMHO, there is a difference in sound between Valentino and other pads. The difference is rather subtle, with Valentino pads giving a somewhat 'broader' sound than say, the bladder pads. IMHO as well, a piccolo for instance padded in cork pads sounds more shrill and louder than one padded with Valentino.
Neal,
I think Valentino pads will be able to last longer than say bladder pads, IMHO that is.
Chan
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2008-02-08 02:58
My leather pads give a meatier, more tender, more "cattle-like" sound to the clarinet. I am sure!
moo.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-02-08 03:30
Yes, leather pads are absolutely essential when performing the "Mad Cow" section of Gnarly Buttons. Or maybe not. Maybe they're the reason the cow is mad!
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Ed
Date: 2008-02-08 12:22
I like the Valentinos. I have not used them on an entire instrument or upper joint, but on problem areas, for example where you normally have water issues, etc and they work great.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-02-10 11:17
"Valentino" without specifying the type, is pretty ambiguous.
Valentino normally refers to the older type they made, which most people did not like.
Then there are the current ones normally referred to as "Greenbacks", which have been much better received.
There is also a pretty big difference in the behaviour of them depending on whether they have the self adhesive (ie self move-around-after-installation?!) backing or whether conventional glues are used.
So for me, any comments about Valentino are pretty meaningless, unless the type is specified.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-02-10 12:23
Somehow, I always assume Valentino conversations are about the Greenback model.
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