 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2008-02-04 18:13
First off, I am a former student level player and have decided to get back into clarinet playing again strictly as a fun hobby, now that I am out of college in a relatively stable career, seeing as it was something that I enjoyed immensly. I already have a pro level Yamaha Bb clarinet (soon to be liberated from climate controlled storage), but I became intrigued by all of the interesting vintage instruments on the well known auction site for tantalizingly low prices. I have purchased several for well under $50. One is a exceedingly gorgeous Jerome Thibouville Lamy Albert/simple system/etc... (don't want to open up that nomenclature can of worms right now!) It has no rings on the upper joint and 2 RH index trill keys. It has the 2 ring "spectacle" ring stack on the bottom joint, no rollers on any of the pinky keys. The tenons are still wrapped with waxed string. It has some problems, yes, but I am determined to have it play again, one way or another. The biggest obstacle is that it is missing the barrel. I decided to compare it to another instrument I had just recently purchased, an early 20th century Carl Fischer stamped "Excelsior" (99% sure that it is a Buffet) - a relatively standard looking early Boehm clarinet with wrap-around register key, although having the infamous "doughnut" key. The Carl Fischer has a barrel that is marked B LP, but that is it, though it looks original to the instrument. What I was somewhat surprised to find is that what is there of the Thibouville is substantially shorter, as in at least an an inch to two inches shorter from the upper joint tenon step to the bell, when compared to the Carl Fischer (which to me, seems to be a standard size Bb). I've never held an Eb sopranino before, but I am relatively certain the Thibouville is substantially larger than that. The barrel from the Carl Fischer definitely doesn't fit, it dwarfs the upper joint of the Thib. However, the bell of the C.F. has much too small of a socket to fit the Thibouville! Not having my Yamaha out of storage yet to compare these to, is the Jerome Thibouville a C clarinet or an exceptionally short Bb? I had the impression that "Albert" Bb clarinets were generally overall longer than Boehm clarinets, as the bore is generally larger? To confound things further, the joints of the Thibouville are all marked with a "B" ! I can provide some pics if that will be helpful...
Edit: clarity
Post Edited (2008-02-05 18:01)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2008-02-04 18:21
I know somewhat of what you speak. Back then (1900 or earlier), even neglecting the HP/LP dichotomy for a moment, the lengths of barrels (and corresponding lengths of upper joints) had not been more-or-less standardized as they are today. I've had a couple of JTLs of similar vintage myself (they are beautiful instruments indeed!), and I recall one had an elongated upper joint with a very short barrel, while another had the opposite case -- and these were both LP instruments, by the way. One was the overall longest soprano clarinet I've ever seen, a one-piece-body, full-Boehm "A" clarinet by JTL --- also probably the nicest looking clarinet that I've had. (Unfortunately it played only reasonably well and not great, so I sold it.)
Anyway, things were confused back then, as you are discovering. Good luck in your quest!
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-02-04 19:41
Dave S has said it very well, I have a similar JTL and its an H[igh]P[itch] which prob. accounts for its shorter length, closer to a B natural length than either Bb or C. If played alone it might be quite good, but trying to tune it to a C [or Bb] would prob. throw many notes out of tune, requiring much attention to pitch by embouchure. Fun, aint it? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2008-02-04 20:33
Thanks for the replies guys, I am aware of High Pitch/Low Pitch. I guess I hadn't considered that a HP Bb would be that much shorter, but it seems likely that is what it is. Anyway, I 've never seen wood/finish like this on a clarinet. It has noticeable depth and looks almost pearlescent in some sections of the grain.
Post Edited (2008-02-04 20:43)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2008-02-04 20:59
I've observed that the grenadilla wood used back then (100 years ago!) was of far higher quality than anything you'll see today. I guess such wood has either been farmed/cut/burned out of existence, or maybe nobody takes the time to age it like they used to (or perhaps both reasons apply!).
I've found it's much easier to make a 100-year-old clarinet, with its dark, dense wood and solid nickel-silver or silver-plated keywork, look good than it is to take any modern clarinet and attempt to do the same.
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Author: Cindyr
Date: 2008-02-05 13:30
I have a matched set of A and Bb JTL high pitched clarinets, matching the description you gave for your JTL. Yes, they are beauties. Measuring the Bb without the mouthpiece, I get an overall length of 22 3/8" . The bell is exactally 4". I hope that you can find a suitable bell for yours.
Post Edited (2008-02-05 13:32)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-02-05 14:40
Hi Modernicus, Cindy and Dave - Looking more closely at my oldie, I find only C H Jerome on its UJ, a non JTL barrel AND a JTL 4" bell with the "medallions" stencilled in. So my conclusion is, its a mixed bag of "sticks". The 2 joints assembled, sans barrel and bell , measure [about\ 18 5/8 ". So, Mod, is your bell older than mine? If yes, we might consider a trade, and, if so, I'd like to do it via Dave S who ?might? be happy to get acquainted with both, And put my 2 joints into good, restored, playable condition. How's that for an early AM proposition ??
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2008-02-05 16:57
Thanks for all the info and offers. I don't think I would be open to separating any parts right now, though. For sake of clarity, my J.T.L is only missing the barrel, the bell definitely matches the two joints (and has gorgeous tone and grain), and they match each other. Sadly, all the pieces have hairline cracks, so you probably wouldn't want them anyway. The long one on the upper joint looks like checking on the surface, it definitely doesn't go all the way through-the ends look like they are only about .25mm deep. The others look like they may be suitably glued (I know, some people don't think that is a legit fix, but remember, this is a $30-40 auction clarinet that might have been tempting lamp fodder for somebody- just saw a decent looking Cuesnon turned into a lamp last night on eSlay- gasp!). I know it is a bit ridiculous to be fixing up such an obsolete, neglected instrument, but I'm a sucker for hard luck cases.
Anyway, when one measures from the bottom of the bell, to the shoulder of the top joint, (not counting the upper joint tenon!) if I recall correctly, it is about 19.75" long. Add the tenon in there and account for some discrepancy for angle of measurement, and I bet it would be very close to what Cindyr posted for the length of her J.T.L. HP Bb. Cindyr, do you think you could give me some info regarding the barrel measurements for future reference? It could help me out substantially. Once again, thank you for reading my ramblings.
Post Edited (2008-02-05 18:01)
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Author: Cindyr
Date: 2008-02-09 02:24
Hi: The barrel length on the B is not quite 2 3/8", and the A, not quite 2 5/8." If you do find a suitable barrel, I'd be careful not to leave the clarinet all together. My two, although having been restored, had been stuck together at the barrels, and bells (although not the midsection) for at least 30 years. Thanks to a very good clarinet repair person, they are now safely apart.
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