 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Joseph LeBlanc
Date: 2008-02-03 00:28
I recently ordered some tube cane from the Reeds'n Stuff in Germany. With my order they included a burned DVD of a masterclass demonstrating how to make a reed from start to finish using their entire line of tools. Some of these steps can be skipped or done by hand(ie: spitting cane with a knife etc.) but it's interesting to see all of the tools in action. They are very expensive but appear to be quicker and more elegantly designed than what is commonly used in the US.
I posted the masterclass on youtube in two parts:
Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwgwVs41uHQ
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37NzCpwYrmc
Enjoy,
Joe
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Author: Copland
Date: 2008-02-03 00:34
Thanks a ton! These look awesome! Although, I don't speak German...
Post Edited (2008-02-03 00:36)
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2008-02-03 05:27
EXCELLENT video. great to see how they do it from start to finish.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-02-03 16:19
Hi Joe, do they include an English translation? I'd love to come over and see what you bought if that can be arranged some time. I live in Phoenix MD in North Baltimore county and play in the BSO. I used to make my own reeds using the Reed du al but gave up years ago. Let me know if you would be agreeable or not,. my e-mail address is below. Thanks, ESP
palanker@aol.com Peabody.jhu.edu/457
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Author: clarijen
Date: 2008-02-03 17:51
This is fascinating! Thank you for posting it.
I wonder if there are any such masterclasses over here...
Post Edited (2008-02-04 18:02)
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-02-03 21:17
Did you get permisson from Reeds'n Stuff to post this DVD on Youtube? If not don't you feel bad about steeling someones work ?
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Author: Joseph LeBlanc
Date: 2008-02-03 23:13
Well, I figured this was ok to post for a few reasons. The DVD they sent me was a burned copy, I didn't buy it and it's not something they sell, it is probably something they throw in with every order to encourage you to buy more of their tools.
Also, there were no English subtitles, but I figured it would still be interesting to those on the the board who haven't ever seen a reed made from start to finish.
-Joe
Post Edited (2008-02-03 23:16)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-02-03 23:43
Joseph LeBlanc wrote:
> Well, I figured this was ok to post for a few reasons.
Interesting it might have been, but of course it wasn't really your prerogative to put it up on YouTube ... You might consider letting them know that a copy of their DVD has been uploaded.
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Author: clarinetfreak
Date: 2008-02-04 07:01
Two questions?
The profiling machine isn't copying a reed right? So how do you change the profile or is it set?
What's the wet stone for? Sealing the read?
Good Times!
Post Edited (2008-02-04 07:01)
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2008-02-04 11:06
Oh, come on, Mark and Iceland!
This is a demonstration of a collection of tools available from a manufacturer. It's not a broadcasting of a special, patented technique or special process knowledge that could be duplicated without this company's tools.
How does Reeds 'n' Stuff stand to lose by their video being on YouTube? Did they make their own DVDs as a profit-making items, or to spread the word?
Sure, the manufacturer owns the rights to the videos, but what manufacturer in its right mind would object to having not only free publicity, but also the endorsement of people (the person who posted the videos) who aren't making a profit from the product?
Let's get practical here. Even the most litigious companies don't sue people for doing them favors.
B.
Post Edited (2008-02-04 11:08)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-02-04 11:15
bmcgar wrote:
> How does Reeds 'n' Stuff stand to lose by their video being on
> YouTube? Did they make their own DVDs as a profit-making items,
> or to spread the word?
It's not YOUR decision to make. That's all. They have their OWN marketing team. Perhaps they never thought of YouTube. It would have been both morally and legally correct for you to ask. How much effort would it have taken?
When I use pictures of clarinets from advertising material on my website I ask for clearance from the manufacturer. I've been refused only once. You'd think that the manufacturers would never object - but one did, for whatever reason. It's their right.
Not yours.
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2008-02-04 14:29
Well, I guess I just don't find this as an important a moral and legal matter as I should.
Being in the business world for 35 years (much of that time dealing with intellectual property and trademark matters) apparently hasn't shown me all I need to know about the practical side of product endorsement and "advertising."
I suppose I shouldn't bother boosting anyone's products without permission. Too much trouble to take to do a favor, after all.
B.
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Author: Joseph LeBlanc
Date: 2008-02-04 14:33
Here is the response I got from Udo Heng(owner of the company):
"Dear Joe,
thank you very much for your e-mail. You are very welcome to put it on Youtube. To as a oboist (I play here at the opera) it was always fascinating to see how easy it is to make clarinet reeds. There are not too many clarinet players who realy do it today. What is your profession?
Best regards
Udo Heng
www.reedsnstuff.com
Reeds 'n Stuff
Adam Ries Str. 16
09456 Annaberg / Germany"
Putting the promo DVD on Youtube was a judgment call on my part. It was not my intent to stir up a moral debate in this thread. I hope we can put this debate to rest and focus on the content of the actual video for those who might be interested in it. Enjoy!
Best,
Joe
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-02-04 14:41
bmcgar wrote:
> Being in the business world for 35 years (much of that time
> dealing with intellectual property and trademark matters)
> apparently hasn't shown me all I need to know about the
> practical side of product endorsement and "advertising."
I guess not. After being in the technical, business, and production side of major and minor corporations for the past 35 years, including being the chief architect for a IP / digital asset management system, I've at least learned a bit ...
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Author: Joseph LeBlanc
Date: 2008-02-04 15:47
"The profiling machine isn't copying a reed right? So how do you change the profile or is it set?
What's the wet stone for? Sealing the read?"
The profiling machine doesn't copy a cane reed but rather copies a metal reed guide. I haven't used this machine but I think you can buy different metal profiles to suit your purpose.
This concept is similar to the Dilutis machine, as he offers metal guide reeds as an option. Blade style machines use more pressure than a reedual and therefore don't lend themselves as well to using cane as a guide. On the other hand I think they have the potential to be more accurate. I plan on upgrading to a blade profiler at some point and I will know better then...
What the video doesn't show is the reed being clipped. It comes off of the profiler perfectly clipped, I'm guessing they edited that part out because I don't think this profiler also clips the reed.
I think the wetstone is there to sharpen reed knives.
-Joe
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2008-02-04 17:17
Looks like early industrial revolution stuff to me - the newer CNC exacting reed making machines put these multiple hand machines back into the stone age technology especially in sophisticated profiling. The use of the reed knives in the process could also be very tricky and require some experience. CNC may be out of reach for the novice but pricewise it would come close by the time you purchased all of the needed Reeds-n-Stuff machines to make your first reed. In terms of progression in the reed making process the videos were very interesting.
(Disclaimer- I am owner of Stone Mountain Reed Co.)
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
Post Edited (2008-02-04 17:20)
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2008-02-04 17:36
Omar, a viable reed-making CNC machine would be well beyond the price range of all but the most affluent clarinetists, not just novices. Furthermore, there are many, many variables that go into the various steps of the reed-making process form the tube to a finished reed. No one single machine is going to create a reed from a tube of cane.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2008-02-04 17:58
I am well aware of the variables, some of which are managible and some not, in making reeds. Take a look at the BB Sponsor UHL Technick which has machines that can start with a tube cane section in the round and produce a finished reed at the other end. I saw this machine in use at the Xilema factory last year. The cost granted is greater than $250 K but this is a production, commercial grade machine. A CNC milling machine which you would have to program yourself and could give exacting and reproducible results can be 1/100 that price. With a good set of reed knives and a lot of practice you can do it all by yourself with no machinery.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
Post Edited (2008-02-04 18:02)
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Author: Joseph LeBlanc
Date: 2008-02-04 18:11
Omar,
I have considered a CNC machine to put the final profile on the reed, but I don't have enough knowledge of the machines to know if it would be viable.
You are right about price, the reeds'n stuff profiler alone is about 2675 USD.
There are some tabletop mills that seem like they would do the job and cost under $3000.
Take a look at this site:
http://www.sherline.com/8540pg.htm
Would a machine like this be able to cut in fine enough gradations to make a smooth reed vamp? And how accurate would it be from reed to reed? Also, would you need to input the reed dimensions from a CAD file, how would you go about doing this?
Thanks!
-Joe
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2008-02-04 18:31
One of the assets of getting old is assessing how your brain is wired and your potential for learning new tasks, also knowing your limitations, and that learning curve time can be very costly versus hiring someone to do it for you. I have hired a talented programmer and an experienced CNC operator to do my CNC work. Even the best CNC work on soft materials still requires final finishing and polishing.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Joseph LeBlanc
Date: 2008-02-05 20:45
thanks for the insight Omar. So it seems like it wouldn't be worth the trouble if a blade profiler were able to do the same without requiring hand finishing...
I wonder if a CNC mill could be retrofitted somehow to be better suited to reed making. Any thoughts?
-Joe
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2008-02-05 21:35
Rico has purchased the Glotin CNC reed making machines which seem to do a good job - but those are the high end commercial models. I have no experience with the smaller milling machines like the one that you linked to. I am not talking extensive finishing an polishing just a quick swipe with some fine emery paper.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-02-06 13:35
Hmmm. Based my needs and a quick and dirty calculation, it looks to me like the payback period for a full set of this equipment would be... oh, about 95 - 100 years. (And that's if I grow the cane in my backyard!) At my age, I think I'll just keep buying Vandorens. ![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif) Cool video, though.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2008-02-06 13:36)
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Author: Joseph LeBlanc
Date: 2008-02-06 16:05
Omar,
Some info that you might be interested in. It appears Rico also uses CNC Machines from Hermann Uhl, of Uhl Technik( http://uhltechnik.com/ ).
If you look at his references page Rico is listed:
http://www.uhl-technik.de/en/refer.html
Also for what is it worth, the Glotin machines that Rico has are not CNC machines. I can't really elaborate more, because I don't know much about the machines, but that's what I've been told. Though it would make sense because they are probably on the older side.
As for personal CNC machines to make reeds, there is one that exists that appears to be user friendly and puts a great finish on the reed. It's another Hermann Uhl design:
http://reedmachine.com/
I'd love to give that one a shot but it's a little out of my price range.
-Joe
Post Edited (2008-02-06 16:06)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2008-02-06 16:20
Thanks for the information - Rico must have thought that the Glotin machines were usable because they brought them all the way from France to CA to produce reeds. I have seen the top of the line UHL machines in operation at the Xilema factory in Spain and indeed they do a wonderful job but as you indicate they are not in any/many player's pocketbook range. Most of the steps leading up to the final profiling can be readily learned to be done with common tool surrogates but the final profiling is the difficult step.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
Post Edited (2008-02-06 16:23)
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