 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Liam Murphy
Date: 2008-01-29 05:18
Clarinet BBoard,
It has been about ten months since I abandoned my "incorrect" tonguing techniques, in response to my instructor's repeated requests, -- and my conventional "tip-of-the-tongue-on-the-tip-of-the-reed" tonguing is coming along nicely. I have never read any article, nor heard a verbal explanation of the ways that I used to tongue.
Basically I am asking this question out of curiosity:
Has anyone ever used/witnessed tonguing techniques similar to the following explanations?
1)
-- Tongue Position: Sandwiched in front of the back-teeth, behind the bottom lip.
-- Method of attack: Pushing the lower lip with the tongue until the reed stops vibrating. (This did produce a clear staccato, but legato was difficult)
-- Register of use: mostly the chalemeau, and lower clarion. Any higher and the attack would not be crisp.
-- My top speed (single): 125 Sixteenths
-- My top speed (double): circa 144 Sixteenths. The secondary attack was a "Ka" syllable. My current double tonguing is a lot more efficient and clear (around 185 Sixteenths)
2)
-- Tongue Position: far at the back of my mouth. Like when you'd try to sing your lowest possible note with an "Oar" sound.
-- Method of attack: quickly throwing the back of the tongue forward in a "Yah"-like motion.
-- Register of use: anything higher than clarion F.
-- My top speed: 120 eighth notes. Double was impossible for me. (faster was possible in short bursts, no longer that 6 notes in a row)
This may seem ridiculously complex compared to the "conventional" tonguing method, however it seemed to be the natural way for me to tongue
As you might have guessed, when I explained all of this to my instructor, he was a little horrified. At the time I was tackling repertoire like the Copland and Weber Concertos.
Anyway, descriptions of "anchor" and other esoteric tonguing techniques do not seem to fit mine. I was hoping to know if these are unique to me, or if there are others out there that are similar and documented.
Thanks for anyone's help,
-Liam
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-01-29 11:42
Hello Liam,
I did have a student who attempted to tongue through her lower lip as (I believe) you describe...but she didn't have the velocity that you have enjoyed!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: clarijen
Date: 2008-01-29 13:49
Hi Liam,
It's interesting that you should mention this as it's a subject I've been thinking about a lot recently, too. I think I tongue in the way you described - basically I put too much lower lip over my teeth, so my tongue stays under the lower lip, behind the bottom teeth.
I have been playing for about 15 years now, and this was never mentioned when I was having lessons. I've never found that I have particular problems, either with staccato or legato in any register (although I've never been able to double tongue) - however, now that I've read up a bit about it I wonder if I might achieve a crisper staccato if my tongue actually touches the reed. Whenever I try this, though, the sound is not pleasant at all. How long did it take you to make the switch? Should I try to change over?
Either way, you're not the only one Liam!
Thanks for any input.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-01-29 15:33
#1 is anchor tonguing....fairly common I think. It encourages small tongue movement but is not real pointed and precise. #2...I don't know. I would suggest another one... I like this brushing the tongue side to side on the reed. It provides a smooth , fast articulation. For me when I switch from this side to side to just a fast single tongue I notice it is difficult to tongue as fast. Side to side maybe less articulate or separate but for me is capable of more speed.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: soggyreed
Date: 2008-01-29 20:37
David Pino (Keith Stein student) talks about the second kind of tonguing in his book – Clarinet and Clarinet Playing.
Anchor tonguing has never had a great following but isn’t uncommon. Some kind of tongue to reed tonguing is what seems to be the most favored and successful. Many might recall that in the early clarinet days, particularly in the Italian schools, the mouthpiece was placed on the instrument reed up. This technique required (reportedly) that all tonguing was done with the breath.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-01-30 01:17
Soggyreed,
I thought that the "inversion" of the mouthpiece was primarily with the chalumeau...am I completely incorrect on that? How far back are you speaking?
I would hate to have to play some Italian music with only breath segmentation!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Liam Murphy
Date: 2008-01-30 01:30
Thanks for the replies,
Tobin,
Thank you for your contribution to the thread.
In a way, I am happy that you have encountered a case similar to mine, and was wondering if you tried to get your student to change her tonguing? My instructor certainly did, however he liked how I was playing, and indulged my technique after a while.
I should have changed my technique earlier than ten months ago because I foresaw its limitations, but was reluctant to abandon such a "successful" technique.
Clarijen,
It's great to have heard what you said. My response to your question of the transition from (1) to "conventional" tonguing:
When I first gave "Conventional" tonguing a go, it was, as you say, most unpleasant. However, I found that when you kept an open mind about it, and persevered for a few weeks, the results were very pleasing.
The "conventional tonguing” problems that I ran in to:
Speed: At first, my single tonguing was INCREDIBLY slow, circa 80bpm eighth notes! Nevertheless, it gradually built up to a relatively quick speed as I mentioned in the original post.
Clarity: In the beginning, the initial attack of the note was "spitty" and lacked the instantaneous transition form silence to sound, with a husky prelude to each staccato. This disappeared after a while, within the first few practice sessions in fact.
Co-ordination: I think there is a small difference between the muscular movement to perform a (1) attack, and a "Conventional" attack. The result was tonguing between fingered notes, and creating a strange out-of-sync feel to each set of tongued notes. This also disappeared after a while.
"Intonation": I can't think of a better word right now other than intonation, what I mean is: Prior to most upper clarion and altissimo register notes, I would inadvertently performed a "Scoop", or other pitch slides, upwards to the intended note. In a way, this was the hardest problem to overcome, actually, no one really does overcome the problem, everyone mis-hits a few notes and scoops into them. Sufficed to say, my "conventional" tonguing amplified this phenomenon.
Embouchure: My embouchure had to be slightly modified to accommodate my new tonguing style; I will explain my necessary modification: less of my bottom lip needed to be covering my lower teeth. For some anatomical reason my tongue was incapable of a clean or comfortable attack with my old embouchure.
If you are tonguing in the same way that I used to, I do recommend that you try to change your tonguing style. I have found the "conventional" style to be more fast, clear, easy, and less restricting on my abilities. It took me a few years to actually take the plunge and "fix" my tonguing, and I feel that I should have done it earlier and not have procrastinated so much.
Good luck, and give it a go.
Arnoldstang,
They way in which my old (1) tonguing style differed from "Anchor tonguing", is in the fact that my tongue never got close to the reed at all, and definitely did not make any contact with it.
My own instructor is, to this day, certain of me being guilty of anchor tonguing, however the descriptions that I've read, do not seem to exactly fit mine.
"Brushing the tongue side to side on the reed" my friend does this very quickly, around 180 sixteenths, but it admittedly lacks much tonal power or clarity for him. When I attempted this, I could only get a few notes in a row before my tongue refused to repeat the movement anymore.
soggyreed,
I've read David Pino's book, and Keith Stein's for that matter, but must have over looked this detail, can you give me a page number?
What you say about Italian reed set up, I find to be very interesting, and I will research further.
Tobin, Clarijen, Arnoldstang and Soggyreed,
Once more, thank you for replying to this topic
-Liam
Post Edited (2008-01-30 04:12)
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Author: clarinboy
Date: 2008-01-30 01:36
Probably not true about using only breath when the reed was on the top instead of the lower lip. The tongue would then be placed very high. Notice the pictures of clarinet players many years ago. They held the clarinet out almost like a jazz player so it was easier to place the tongue up high. At least that's what I was taught to believe. Most professionals would agree that placing the tongue on the reed is the best way to tongue. Use as close to the tip of the tongue as possible so there is as little flesh touching the reed and make contact near the tip of the reed. It doesn't have to be the very tip as some players state, as long as it's close to the tip. The reed will stop vibrating if you touch the reed anyplace but near the tip it is the most sensitive part and therefor requires less effort, once you can do it well. I think it more important to tongue at the tip of the tongue with a light stroke than where it hits the reed as long as it's close to the tip. It's best to raise the tongue so you can do that, as opposed to keeping the tongue near the bottom of your mouth. I'ts best to arch the tongue so the back is high near the upper molars with the front arching down a bit to allow the air to pass through freely, producing a fuller sound. Good luck!
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-01-30 01:40
Liam,
I did encourage her to change her tonguing, which was ultimately to her advantage. She was a multi-talented individual (tremendous swimmer...probably her avenue to collegiate scholarships) who discontinued lessons.
I tongue at the tip of the reed with the tip of my tongue, influencing the reed at its' thinnest point with a lightest motion that I can. In this way (and with the proper form - for me) I can also utilize the reeds' spring form to increase speed.
These are the reasons that I would suggest one change. Once you've completed your acclimation to the new form, I would guess that you'd achieve even better results than you had before!
Good luck!
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2008-01-30 10:58)
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Author: soggyreed
Date: 2008-02-12 17:50
Tobin,
You are probably right about the chalumeau. Can't say I researched my answer before I hit send. You are also right that it would be inappropriate to assume my comment was intended to be a generalization about Italian clarinetists and their music. I do remember in the back of my mind, however, that inversion was a style of playing.
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Author: soggyreed
Date: 2008-02-12 17:52
I'd have to dig out my books and neither of us may live long enough for that to happen. Should I find it again - and I think it was just a note in passing - I send along the info.
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Author: soggyreed
Date: 2008-02-13 00:26
I found my Pino book right off. In re-reading the section on tonguing what I was remember was the technique Stein and Pino called paintbrush. Not exactly what you described but maybe of the same sense. I have heard - without reference - of the technique you described. Can't say much more than that. I would suggest that whatever technique you settle on, you can make good use of the Kell 17 Staccato Studies. I found the first three all I really needed in regular practice.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-02-13 00:42
"Brushing the tongue side to side on the reed" my friend does this very quickly, around 180 sixteenths, but it admittedly lacks much tonal power or clarity for him. When I attempted this, I could only get a few notes in a row before my tongue refused to repeat the movement anymore.
-------------------------------------------
16th's at 234 that's about my max without practicing it. Tonal power is the same and at any range (not limited by range like double tonguing typically is).
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: jaydee2167
Date: 2008-02-17 02:07
This technique works well for me:
When wetting the reed, I hold it between the teeth about playing distance.
I start tonguing--admittedly very spitty--- but it helps the reed!!
Then I secure the reed to the mp, and practice somemore...
It seems my tongue works better pressing upward on the bottom of the reed near the tip instead of right at the tip..
Then I put the assembly onto the beast, and start playing....
It has worked quite well.
Is this the way others do it??
jd
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2008-02-29 01:49
David Blumberg: "16th's at 234 that's about my max without practicing it. Tonal power is the same and at any range (not limited by range like double tonguing typically is)."
Sorry for being dense, David, but I'm not getting from the context whether you're hitting 234 while single-tonguing, double-tounging (but not limited), brushing the tongue side-to-side, or something else. What???
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Author: tdinap
Date: 2008-03-02 07:42
Regarding the "inverted mouthpiece" method:
A bit of a search found a thread about this from a couple of years ago, where it was mentioned that this was a relatively common practice for Italian players well into the twentieth century (Gino Cioffi of the Boston Symphony apparently preferred to play this way). I didn't notice any specifics on tonguing pracices, though.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=168049&t=168044
I tried that method about a year ago just for kicks, and I'm pretty sure I was able to execute some kind of contact-based tonguing, although I don't remember exactly how it worked. (By the way--I'd definitely recommend trying this out, it's a very interesting experience.)
Tom
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