 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ChrisArcand
Date: 2008-01-26 21:09
I am visiting a few friends from a college here in Des Moines, Iowa (the particular of the school I'll leave out). One of them is a clarinetist, purely by hobby (a non-major) and is in the general university ensemble.
Without going into too much unnecessary information, basically she has told me that her instructors REQUIRE her to use Vandoren blue box 4's, along with everyone else.
What the hell.
Who generalizes and requires everyone to use the same reed strength, using different mouthpieces, etc, etc?
There's a few hundred rants and reasons I could go off on. But I'll leave it there.
Thoughts? Is this common for general universities, etc? Do people really do this or is this a particularly messed up situation?
Or is it messed up at all, do you think?
CA
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Author: Copland
Date: 2008-01-26 21:24
Well, I'm not in college, but that seems awful! Of course, it seems like that would be exceptionally hard to check on the director's part.
Perhaps the director rationalizes this by thinking that because it's a 'general university ensemble' of people who aren't majors, the students won't care enough to try different reeds. This is clearly not a sound thought process, for I'm sure many of the students love their instruments, but just don't want to major in its performance.
Just my 2 cents.
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Author: Liam Murphy
Date: 2008-01-26 22:06
Chris,
That is close to the most ridiculous thing that I have ever heard.
It feels like another case of forced conformity that is so ever-present nowadays. The instructors must not know much about the instrument that they are flexing their leadership muscles over. Maybe a simple demonstration would be effective to bring the dictators to their senses.
ie: (Using Vandoren mouthpieces as an example)
B40 with strength 4
M13 with strength 4
Assuming the tyrants know what sounds good or bad, it should work.
Incidentally, I would about have a retinal aneurysm with a strength 4 on my B40.
Sorry that I began to say what everyone already knew, but this topic deserved it.
-Liam
Post Edited (2008-01-26 22:12)
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Author: FDF
Date: 2008-01-26 23:14
Since, this is just from one source, it should not be taken as fact. Maybe there was a misunderstanding about the requirements. Perhaps this should be considered between the student and her instructor, rather than on the internet, not only for her best interests, but for the best interests of the instructor and the university. Considering the problems educators have today, it's best not to jump to conclusions.
Post Edited (2008-01-26 23:27)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-01-26 23:15
IMHO this is the typical behaviour of today - resolve political problems with technological solutions, or vice versa. There's something else lurking behind that #4 reed thing.
(Besides, that requirement is just one step further than the R13 dictatorship. So the roots are, as usual, deeper down...)
--
Ben
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Author: Jesse
Date: 2008-01-26 23:30
Wow. My university does not do that at all, and I haven't heard of such an idea until I saw this topic. The director should've talked to the section leader if he/she had concerns about this. And chances are the director was a brass player (well, all of mine were), so he/she probably has no idea of the implications of forcing all the players to use the same brand, and possibly making them jump up several reed sizes at the same time...
Post Edited (2008-01-26 23:31)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-01-26 23:34
ChrisArcand wrote:
> Who generalizes and requires everyone to use the
> same reed strength, using different mouthpieces, etc, etc?
Welcome to the world of education, where the B45 is the preferred (and often required) mouthpiece by high school band directors.
It's been going on for decades...GBK
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Author: CPW
Date: 2008-01-27 00:06
Is there a difference between "music educator" vs. "musician" when it comes to having a director??
If so, is this because a degree or certification in education is more requisite than expertise in music?
In one local district, most if not all of the teachers come from one local college which specializing in producing teachers. Inbreeding at its best.
For this reason, the most emphasized facet is discipline above all else. For example, detensions for chewing gum, permits for using the library, etc.
And appropriations for the soccer field irrigation system, while the band has to sell candy door to door.
Oh yeah, there are NO violins in the school, but lots of matching shiney marching drums
Against the windmills of my mind
The jousting pole splinters
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Author: Markael
Date: 2008-01-27 00:12
Live dangerously. Use contraband reeds.
You know, kind of like hiding a girlie magazine inside your Western Civ textbook.
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Author: davidsampson
Date: 2008-01-27 00:19
My directors have never required that you play on any one specific piece of equipment, be it a reed, a mouthpiece, a ligature, or an instrument. If you sound bad on your current set up, they will suggest alternatives for you to try. They have a preference for Vandoren M30's and Rovner EVO-5 ligs. They hand these out like candy to anyone who has not tried them. If you like it, keep it, but you are not required to play it. If you came to class playing Rico's and they realized based on how you sound, they would make you change, but they don't check what reed everyone is playing on or anything.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-01-27 01:18
From my experience and what i have seen of others', I find that no piece of equipment is "required" but the instructors do highly encourage one or another piece of equipment.
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Author: hartt
Date: 2008-01-27 01:40
.......and then there is the CCM, Cinn Conservatory of Music where any clarinet other than a Buffet is frowned upon.
Two students sold their Rossi's.....one was a set , the other , a Bb.....both less than one yr old.
I would think a reed is a much less expensive proposition
such is life
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Author: Scotti
Date: 2008-01-27 02:35
Hartt, during what time period are you refering to at CCM? Keep in mind a LOT can change over the years, particularly if there is a teacher switch. I wouldn't make such statements about a school if I didn't have first-hand knowledge of the current situation.
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Author: hartt
Date: 2008-01-27 04:10
my dear scotti
I can well afford to make the statement as I was the 'go between' for the seller in NYC and the buyer in Montana, who at the time was unavailable.
I add that the buyer bought these as a back up set to an existing set of Rossi.
this sale took place perhaps 6 months ago. At that time, the seller stated he had switched to buffets about one year prior at the 'urging' of his teacher at CCM (name not mentioned). This set of Rossi was laying idle for short of one year when he decided to sell as he was not using them, wanted a good home and needed the $.
The Bb rossi: about the same scenario regarding usage. Purchased in HS, accepted at CCM, switched to Buffet and was selling the Bb.
This sale did not transpire for reasons other than the quality of the clarinet.
Again, the seller referred to the urging of playing Buffets.
Yes, Scotti, years/teachers could and would impact a student's choice of brand. Personally I did not experience this phenomenon as my college time goes back to the mid 60's /early 70's. It was an R13 world with a sprinkling of Selmers. Ironically, the Selmers seem to be 'localized' to the SE geo area.
I share this because at the time I came from NY and was playing a set of R13's in the Lousiana symphony. A few students at themusic school had Selmers Bb's and they were' hometown' folk.
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2008-01-27 13:20
And this isn't limited to clarinets. There is a similar brand blindness in oboes. Many students are forced into Lorees when something else might be better. For years i bought the hype until I tried a Rigoutat and loved it. I sold off BOTH Loree oboe and English horn then, although I love the Loree d'amore that i own.
Eefer guy
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-01-27 16:22
I see and hear a lot of this 'one thing suits all' stuff going on, and it's not good. It's not all that far removed from fascism.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-01-27 17:23
Yesterday, I heard a wonderful performance of the Mendelssohn Concertpiece No. 2 in D-Minor. Played by two PhD clarinetists: Maxine Ramey from U of Montana and Jane Ellsworth from U of Eastern Washington. Maxine on a fancy Buffet, Jane on a coco Rossi --different mouthpieces, different reeds.
What a nice performance with the individual voices of the two virtuoso performers.
This engendered a long discussion (Clarinexius) about one-setup does all, and we concluded that it is not desirable to make all the instruments sound alike. This is more than avoiding Midi replacements for live players; it is in richening the acoustic spectra of our music.
I'd like to see the administrators of music groups provide set up coaching rather than imposing commonality. The coaching will focus on accommodating the physiological differences (and their exploitation), things that will still vary the tone quality between two individuals --regardless of how standardized their setups are.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Tode
Date: 2008-01-27 19:11
Hartt,
I'm currently a student at CCM and I play on a Selmer Recital! It's true that most students do play on Buffets here, but there are a few of us who don't. The studio has changed quite a bit since the CSO clarinetists took over about four years ago.
Don't forget that there are four professors at CCM and while some of them may want their students to play on certain equipment, the others aren't quite like that. I don't study with Richie but I can at least say that my professor (Ron) doesn't want me to change my set up. He believes that I sound fine and there's no sense in changing what I'm comfortable with.
On the subject of the thread: The fact that the professor at that college has the students all play on the same strength reed is a little crazy.
Just putting my two cents in.
~Sarah Todenhoft~
Geaux Tigers!
Post Edited (2008-01-27 19:13)
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Author: hartt
Date: 2008-01-27 20:04
whatever
clarinets are like cars.........different makes, models, tonal colors ,
key options
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Author: Lann
Date: 2008-01-27 20:59
"Live dangerously. Use contraband reeds.
You know, kind of like hiding a girlie magazine inside your Western Civ textbook."
Yep, I carried my Mitchel Lurie 2.5s in a 4 box. No one asked questions, I didn't give any answers, except to the cute little 8th grader I was giving lessons to, because he felt so pressured to use a higher strength reed.
I even hid those realistic looking plastic reeds in there during marching season. I didn't tell the kid that, however.
If that's actually the rule, it's a flat out bad idea. Of course, if it's only stated that the kids should be using Vandoren reeds, it's not as big of a deal, but I'm still opposed. Mitchel Lurie reeds have treated me so much better than a stupid Vandoren ever has.
*ducks for cover*
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-01-27 21:26
A number of years ago, my daughter came home and told me thather band ditrector was telling all the clarinets that they should be using a certain strength of reeds to play their instruments. I suggested that since she was taking private lessons and performing at a much higher level than any other player in her school, it was probably not a good idea to tamper with success.
I said much the same thing the next year, when the same teacher sent home a list of "required" mouthpieces the kids should all "upgrade' to. None of them were all that great, and what she had was again better than what was on the list.
They don't try to mess with her setup much any more, and she runs sectionals for the woodwinds in her band, and sometimes switches over to "help out" the trumpet section, too! (and they are quite frequently sorely in need of help!) ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif) And the only Vandorens she uses are plain blue-box reeds for her eefer.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2008-01-27 22:49
David,
I hope the band director who requires 5s is not a middle-school guy!!
Pain to the extreme for a beginner!
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Author: ChrisArcand
Date: 2008-01-27 22:53
Hmmm yes.
Well, I didn't want to assume at all that all colleges (besides my own) are run like this. I realize this is a both a specific thing not to be generalized with, as well as a continued trend that has been happening for decades in other ways.
Good news (and bad, I guess) for all is that my friends freely admit the music program is not anything to brag about at the college they attend. Remember, they are only trying to enjoy music while they complete their studies in other fields and so things such as this don't bother them nearly as much.
CA
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Author: Tony Beck
Date: 2008-01-28 02:20
Well, one thing for sure, the whole section will all quickly learn to trim, shave and balance reeds, or blow out their sinuses before they get the hang of it.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-01-28 12:27
The director is High School level but he even gets Vandoren 5's for the Sax players!!
My son's band director (he's in 5th grade) requires Vandoren Reeds for all of his players...... so I sent him a complimentary box of Reserve #2 1/2's to give out to compare - at least they will all play right out of the box with no duds. Pity the poor kid who doesn't know about duds and expects all of the reeds in the box to play unadjusted with the Vandorens.
disclaimer's in my sig
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: cpark
Date: 2008-01-28 15:30
Pretty much as a rule band directors don't have a clue about equipment.
On the other hand at a college level sometimes students go down the wrong road with equipment and it can be detrimental to their future success.
I'm not advocating a singular setup, but it's important to find a teacher who you respect and trust enough to help guide you to success, and changing equipment is often part of that equation.
-Chris
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Author: clarinets1
Date: 2008-01-28 16:37
put your preferred reeds in the Blue box. IF the instructor can actually hear a difference, he (she) may have a point. otherwise, it's all bollocks.
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Author: davidsampson
Date: 2008-01-28 21:17
Funny story about that. Last year we were having full band rehearsal, playing through one of our pieces. In the middle of a very loud section where everyone is playing, my band director suddenly cuts us off. He points the a 3rd clarinetist and says "You! You are playing Rico Royals aren't you? Play Vandorens." He then resumed rehearsal.
Needless to say, we were all amazed.
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Author: clarinboy
Date: 2008-01-30 00:37
David is right on. Many teachers have their preferences but if you're told that you have to play on only one type of reed, ,mouthpiece or anything else you should find another teacher. It's different if they can show you that you really sound better with what they want you to use but otherwise we should all play on what we sound better on, not what the teacher plays.
I'm a big believer in finding the equipment that makes the student play and sound as well as they can. Help the student get their best sound possible, not neccessarly the sound that I get. Most of my students use different mouthpieces, the ones that they sound best on and the same thing with reeds and even clarinets.
There are basically two ways to teach. 1- Do what I do regardless of your phyicial makeup, you know, teeth formation, tongue size, jaw strength and shape etc. 2- Use what makes you play and sound the best. Some students will benefit greatly from using the equipment the teacher plays, some won't so why force it. Because the teacher wants to make clones instead of individuals.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-01-30 03:16
I think that a large par of those "requirements" that band students are given is just to ensure some level of equipment quality. Truth be known, the kids (in Junior High and even High School) often can't tell the difference between one and another mouthpoiece or reed. And then there are the parents that prefer to spend as little as possible on their kids' music education, "because they will just quit eventually anyway."
So if the band director "requires" this or that, it might be just to avoid the kids coming with $8 mouthpieces and the same reed that they had been playing for 3 months.
Case in point, I had a band director (sax player) that required people to buy a new reed at least once a month. He knew that if he didn't do this they would play the same reed until biodegradation.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2008-01-30 09:37
> He points to a 3rd clarinetist and says "You! You are playing Rico Royals aren't you? Play Vandorens."
Fantastic story! :-D
I remember my own teacher stopping me and asking, 'What reed are you playing?' I took it off and showed him: Rico, no. 3. 'Ah, Rico,' was all he said, and on we went with the lesson.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-01-30 12:08
Is it so hard to imagine that a good musician CAN hear the difference between one and another reed or mouthpiece?? It seems that some in this thread think it is impossible. But, really, if the player can hear/feel a difference between one and another reed, why is it so hard to imagine that an older performer who is vastly more experienced than a high school student NOT be able to hear the same???
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Author: feadog79
Date: 2008-01-30 13:01
"Is there a difference between "music educator" vs. "musician" when it comes to having a director??"
________________
There shouldn't be, but there often is. As a school music teacher and band director myself, I'm continually frustrated by inept colleagues. Most university music education programs don't seem to put enough focus on musical training. How can an individual teach music unless they can perform at a high level? The amount of high school students who can outplay their band directors ON THEIR MAJOR INSTRUMENT is ridiculous. It's more often the norm, nowadays, though.
I'd hardly consider myself among the best of performers who post in these forums, but the conservatory where I trained at least expected me to perform at or close to the same level as the performance majors.
________________
"...most if not all of the teachers come from one local college which specializing in producing teachers. Inbreeding at its best..."
________________
Also true in the Pittsburgh area where I teach. I've been passed over in interviews because I'm not from the area originally and did not study at a local university. Often, districts here hire local Pittsburgh people who went to local Pittsburgh colleges (of which only 2, in my opinion, offer first-rate instruction). I see many school programs with a lot of potential stagnate because of incompetent leadership.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-01-30 13:08
Just last week a student came in (8th grader) and as she is pretty new to my studio I asked her what reed she was playing, it was a rico royal. I fixed a rico reserve for her and let her try it - she sounded better on her rico royal, so I took the reed back and we continued on.
I'm highly specific in what my students play on, however if something works better for them individually I do allow them to play on what works best for them. In young, and intermediate students, they mostly don't know what works best for them as they haven't tried many other options, and often as well couldn't possibly figure out what the combinations that would work would be (for example playing a Vandoren Mouthpiece with a reed that isn't too hard, etc.)
So they at least will be trying my prefered setup, and then we as a team figure out what works best for the individual.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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