 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jwiseman114
Date: 2008-01-22 18:09
Where is the best source to get posts with a tap for wood instruments?
I want to build a Alt Eb/Ab lever for my recital that is independent of the B/E key.
We also need them occasionally in the shop so it would be nice to have at least three sizes that could be turned to match the other posts.
Thanks
John
Post Edited (2008-01-22 18:30)
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Author: Morrie Backun
Date: 2008-01-22 18:29
Hello
Each maker has different thread sizes for both the body thread and thread for screw or shaft (sometimes even within the same make) varying ball heights and overall dimensions.
It is usually easier to just make what you want from raw stock, if you have access to a lathe with threading capability. (most makers use metric sizes) For facing/ drilling/reaming and tapping you will need the appropriate tools.
In some cases the existing keys need modification to allow adequate clearance.
When I add alternate E Flat keys it usually takes about an hour and a half with the tooling setup used in our shop. If we need to make a key from raw nickel silver it usually adds about 1 hour of time.
Morrie Backun
Morrie Backun
Backun Musical Services
604-205-5770
morrie@backunmusical.com
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2008-01-22 20:25
cooool morrie backun makes a post!! (never seen him post before)
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: sweetjames
Date: 2008-01-22 20:56
I think that sometimes craftsmen fail to realize the symphony of skills they bring to bear on musical instruments. Regarding Mr. Backun's post, access to a lathe is a bit different from possession of the skills necessary to use it to cut both an inside and outside thread to a post. From what I have seen, most clarinetists are not easily intimidated by technical difficulty, but to paraphrase Alexander Pope, a little lathe is a dangerous thing. For the sake of continued good music, and posts to this board, if you are determined to do it yourself, wear safety goggles, ditch the necktie and any loose clothing, and let the cutting tool do the work -- keep your fingers away from it when it is turning.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-01-22 22:16
Sometimes the setup is what takes the most time.....but other times it's the experience.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Morrie Backun
Date: 2008-01-22 22:28
Hello,
I was replying to a message that I thought was from a technician, with access to equipment, which is why I mentioned the lathe, etc. The last thing I want is a Clarinet player that is not familiar with machine tools hurting themselves!!!!!!!!
The other thing you will need to have is soldering skill to add the pickup for the key cup.
Feel free to contact me off line if you need some help with how to make the parts.
Morrie Backun
Morrie Backun
Backun Musical Services
604-205-5770
morrie@backunmusical.com
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-01-23 01:54
To the OP- I don't know for sure, but a good place to check would be www.windcraft.co.uk
I think that pillars can be threaded with a set of apropriate sized dies also. Tapp the hole to the same size and you should be fine. Without a lathe and milling machine there are still ways to make pillars- not nearly the BEST way, and also very very very slow, but it can be done.
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Author: jwiseman114
Date: 2008-01-23 12:49
"I think that sometimes craftsmen fail to realize the symphony of skills they bring to bear on musical instruments. Regarding Mr. Backun's post, access to a lathe is a bit different from possession of the skills necessary to use it to cut both an inside and outside thread to a post. From what I have seen, most clarinetists are not easily intimidated by technical difficulty, but to paraphrase Alexander Pope, a little lathe is a dangerous thing. For the sake of continued good music, and posts to this board, if you are determined to do it yourself, wear safety goggles, ditch the necktie and any loose clothing, and let the cutting tool do the work -- keep your fingers away from it when it is turning."
I know you mean well, but I use a lathe just about every other day. I've messed around with threading only a bit. I would have liked to have emailed ChrisP about this and not put it on the general discussion board but he does not have his email in his profile. Instead I wrote to the general discussion forum and recieved several useful responses.
I'm certainly not encouraging every other clarinet player to jump on a lathe and have at it without any instruction but I also think that most of the posters would have the intelligence to have a heathy respect for the machine before they began. I know that I did.
Post Edited (2008-01-23 12:52)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-01-23 15:57
If you have a threaded pillar, you can fit it into a blind hole drilled into the joint by heating the pillar as it goes in. Once in it will be secure.
But you will also need to fit the opposing pillar deep into the wood under the F/C lever rod (which can have it's dangers as there's not much room for error as the drill or threaded part could enter the bore) and file/mill it flush with the others. Then mill out a slot in the body for the key barrel to run in as well as drilling through the pillar head, facing the inside of the pillar (which will also cut a channel in the pillar to make clearance for the key barrel), tapping the thread for the screw and facing off the opposing threaded pillar completely flat and parallel with the outside pillar.
What make of clarinet is it? On Leblancs they have all the LH lever pillars the same height, though others (eg. older Selmers and Buffets) have a shorter pillar for the LH Ab/Eb lever. Though it's up to you how you want it to look, but best to see what different makers do to see what you like the look of, and more importantly, what you feel works best.
But you needn't add another pillar - you could run the Ab/Eb lever on the same steel as one of the other levers as Selmer do on their Signature clarinets, so all you'll need to do is turn down the diameter of the outer end of the key barrel (or remove it completely if it's a good fit on the steel) and fit the LH Ab/Eb key barrel either as the top joint trill keys or on seperate barrels between the pillars, but having two short key barrels can make the LH levers wobble.
Then silver solder a tab on the Ab/Eb key cup to connect with the end of the Ab/Eb lever. A throat A touch (teardrop-shaped) makes an ideal touchpiece for the LH Ab/Eb touch (when it runs in between the LH E/B and F#/C# levers), though if it's like an oboe d'amore LH F key (and as seen on current Buffets) the shape of the touch tapers off smoothly to meet the narrower width of the lever arm, kinda like the shape of the other LH levers, but with a symmetrical touch.
http://howarth.uk.com/pic.aspx?pic=./wo/Howcl0.jpg&pid=35062
http://howarth.uk.com/pic.aspx?pic=./wo/HowarthDAXLConCoco.jpg&pid=566750
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: jwiseman114
Date: 2008-01-24 17:00
Really!...that will work? I do have a perfect threaded post around here somewhere. So you use the post to tap itself with heat? It doesn't strip the wood or is it touchy?
I have a Recital. I know I could use the pre-existing C#/F# key but the mechanisms I've experienced in the past that use that system tend to be really flimsy because there is so little tube over steel relative to the function. Those keys tend to always bend away from the crown of the body. I've also seen little peg-stops to alleviate that. Part of the reason I want to do it this way is because I never have before and I would like to learn. I was also thinking about putting an F correction key on the horn as well. I’m not certain that I really need one.
We used to have a set of generic posts in the shop with a matching tap but we have run out and nobody seems to know where they came from.
I feel pretty confident with the rest of the operation. I've done a fair amount of key building and I just recently had an old clarinet that had an opposing pillar that had penetrated the bore which I took out, filled and replaced (more or less).
Thanks for the advice as always. I have to admit that the idea of self tapping a post scares the bejesus out of me. I would hate to have a weak post there! I'll at least try it first on a junk body and see how it goes.
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Author: Morrie Backun
Date: 2008-01-24 18:21
Hello,
Personally, I do not recommend drilling a blind hole and heating the post for several reasons.
1) I have seen several cases where this technique has cracked the body
2) It is difficult to control the precise angle and depth this way and might make key fitting difficult
3) I have seen posts put in this way "shift" when being face, drilled, tapped etc and tear out surrounding wood surfaces
4) I have seen bores penetrated by posts inserted too far with wood displacement under pressure
5) Generally speaking, wood does not like heated metal being sunk into it very much - WOULD YOU!!!!!!!!
As for shortening an existing left hand lever and adding a secondary lever on the same post, this has some problems, including very short bearing surfaces for both keys which leads to excessive play and key "wobble." Also, in case of a mishap in cutting the existing key, the instrument may not be playable. In fact I have converted several instruments built this way to three post systems at the request of players.
Personally, I always feel more comfortable with a 3 post system
Morrie Backun
Morrie Backun
Backun Musical Services
604-205-5770
morrie@backunmusical.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-01-24 23:22
Without specialist tools such as a setting out machine or milling machine to drill a countersunk hole for pillars and thread cutter that has a tap specific to the pillar thread (which stops once the tap reaches the base of the pillar hole, then reverses on the way out), anyone wanting to do this sort of work in very small quantities where it's totally uneconomical to buy such equipment will just have to improvise.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2008-01-25 00:55
definitely not a DIY project. too many variables, and not enough hands on experience. you might permanently mess up your recital.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: jwiseman114
Date: 2008-01-25 12:41
I think I have figured out my 'issues' with a couple of phone calls to some repair friends. Thanks to all.
We do have a metal lathe and milling machine along with some jigs in the shop here. I've decided to build the post from raw material but I haven't decided whether I want to choose a rough threaded tap/die set or make my own thread and tap with the lathe for more strength (two suggestions from two different friends). I have one more person to call that may finalize my decision.
In retrospect, I probably should not have posted this question here. I appologize.
John
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-01-25 18:21
The pillar thread is fairly coarse, and on some pillars the thread is tapered. But if you have a matching tap and die with the same coarse thread then this'll be ideal - you want a bottom tap (with a squared off tip) for cutting the thread in the joint, not a tapered one.
The inset pillar is left with parallel sides, then what's left protruding is cut off and filed to shape once it's screwed securely in place. I've seen on some Yamaha clarinets they have a slot in the top of the inset pillar so it can be removed easily which is a good idea - by removing one of these you can see just how deep to drill the new hole (to prevent going through to the bore) and the length of the threaded part of the inset pillar.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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